The Irregular Carlisle and Lancaster/Morecambe to Leeds Services

[RailWonderer]

Who exactly are these services geared towards, day trippers, or any regular core of commuters? North of Skipton demand is small I understand that but for most tourism the timings of these services tend to be useless. The arrivals into Leeds at 17:39 and 19:08 both ex-Carlisile are for day trippers to come home, then two late night arrivals into Leeds both from Morcambe but why not a more regular service for anything in betwen? - is it due to diagramming issues or infrastructure constraints, or just demand based? Leeds only has the 09:20 and the 10:49 outbound to Carlisile then nothing until 16:48 and 17:26.

Scotrail are mooting changes to the FNL timetable, and I think its about time Northern do the same with these services. I'm finding it hard to plan one with my schedule.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They don't appear to be geared up for anything, and to be fair the line itself is of relatively little use because there are lots of alternatives to it.

I do agree that it would make sense to think about what the actual use-cases for the infrequent timetable are, though, and retime it to those things. The Conwy Valley is similar - the timetable is set up to maximise the number of runs with one unit and crew, and it would actually offer a better service if the number of return trips was reduced by 1 and the rest retimed to provide morning and evening commuter runs (arrive Llandudno about 0830, leave about 1745) with a lunchtime train for tourists and daytrippers.

It's fairly notable that the current reduced Marston Vale timetable seems to have been thought about in that way rather than just running one of the two diagrams as 2-hourly and not really suiting anyone. (And it seems they can reliably get one out of the 3 230s working )

 

[yorksrob]

I will admit an interest as I'm a regular user of both routes, and I can say that things timetable-wise improved considerably a year or so before lockdown. Al though the routes had a sparse service by many lines standards, they were regular enough to enable people to use them.

For myself coming from the Leeds end, I had options at 08:xx and 10:xx on both routes which catered for pretty much any journey to the Dales, Lancaster or Cumbria.

The problem now is with the gaps. The 10:00 towards Lancaster hasn't come back from the first lockdown, and one mid-day service back from that direction had transmogrified into a bus for some reason when I last checked.

The key should be to get back to the pre-March state of affairs ASAP.

 

[xotGD]

The 17:xx Leeds to Carlisle has a decent number of commuters travelling beyond Skipton in normal times.

I imagine they've all alighted by Settle.

Also commuters joining the train at Skipton.

 

[_toommm_]

And you’ve got the evening Ribblehead terminator which I doubt is used beyond Skipton. I’m pretty sure it terminates at Ribblehead as it’s a convenient turning point (via Blea Moor signal box).

 

[Train jaune]

Not used this train from Lancaster to Leeds for work meetings for the last year but was about once a month before that. I see the 6:48am ex Lancaster now only goes as far as Skipton. Hope they've got rid of the bouncy freezing Pacers. The two hour trip abourd that was dreadful

 

[DB]

Not used this train from Lancaster to Leeds for work meetings for the last year but was about once a month before that. I see the 6:48am ex Lancaster now only goes as far as Skipton. Hope they've got rid of the bouncy freezing Pacers. The two hour trip abourd that was dreadful

150s seem the standard on the line now - not much of an improvement!

 

[route101]

150s seem the standard on the line now - not much of an improvement!

I had a 3 car 158 early this year!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I had a 3 car 158 early this year!

I've been in Lancaster and Morecambe a few times over the past few months, and it's been a 158 there more often than not, very often a 3-car set. Though I think the random unit generator is still in full service.

 

[Iskra]

150s seem the standard on the line now - not much of an improvement!

My last trip was a 158, which was a pleasant first after many years of 144, 150 and 153.

And yes, I completely agree about the comments regarding the timetabling.

 

[30907]

Who exactly are these services geared towards, day trippers, or any regular core of commuters? North of Skipton demand is small I understand that but for most tourism the timings of these services tend to be useless. The arrivals into Leeds at 17:39 and 19:08 both ex-Carlisile are for day trippers to come home, then two late night arrivals into Leeds both from Morcambe but why not a more regular service for anything in betwen? - is it due to diagramming issues or infrastructure constraints, or just demand based? Leeds only has the 09:20 and the 10:49 outbound to Carlisile then nothing until 16:48 and 17:26.

Scotrail are mooting changes to the FNL timetable, and I think its about time Northern do the same with these services. I'm finding it hard to plan one with my schedule.

I am not sure what timetable you are using, because the current one has 6 trains Leeds-Carlisle increasing to 8 from next week, which is the full service as introduced 3(?) years ago.

The Morecambe line service is currently poorer, but goes up to 6 trains next week out of 8, still missing the relatively busy 10xx departure from Leeds as yorksrob reminds us.

To your original question, and referencing the normal timetable west of Skipton, the core markets include:
commuters into Leeds etc from both routes
commuters into Carlisle
leisure travellers, especially into the Pennines (shoppers etc
holidaymakers to Morecambe.

There is an unmet stakeholder wish for a commuter service into Lancaster, and there are fair numbers who use the line as part of longer journeys.

The other timetabling factor is that the line is basically operated out of Skipton, which results in some very lightly loaded trains - though I believe the late train back from Ribblehead is an exception!).

 

[Mcr Warrior]

This is the link to the upcoming new Leeds -> Carlisle + Leeds -> Morecambe timetable...

https://d11vpqhghel6qd.cloudfront.net/images/timetables/bucket/leeds-to-carlisle-leeds-to-morecambe-heysham-port-3987.pdf

Concur that it's disappointing that there's no mid-morning departure ex Leeds towards Morecambe.

 

[johntea]

I guess the problem for Northern with the Morecambe line is after Skipton, Lancaster is the 'jewel in the crown' and I suspect they consider that already well served by simply hopping on the Blackpool North service and a quick change at Preston - this route also means you can make use of an open return ticket rather than just a day return (or of course via Manchester with TPE but more expensive)

They've also arguably reduced publicity for the lines by scrapping the winter offer a few years ago for MetroCard users and now only offering it to English National Concessionary Travel Scheme (ENCTS) pass holders

Fantastic scenery on the Settle and Carlisle line on a good day but does my annual yearly trip pay the bills...probably not!

I should at this point also mention I do have a soft spot for Morecambe, but of course Blackpool is always going to win in a poll between the two if you surveyed 100 people!

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, I noticed that the winter offer for Dales Railcard holders has been suspended. Northern say that they are hoping to bring it back next year after the pandemic, and I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on this for this year.

One thing they should do next year is to bring back the winter offer for Metrocard holders as well. This seems to have been discontinued permanently a few years ago.

 

[Condor7]

We are currently on reduced timetables across the country due to the pandemic so it seems strange to be questioning timetables at this time. As 30907 says above, this all changes from the 13th when new timetables start. As far as the Settle & Carlisle line is concerned prior to Covid the loadings were quite good especially in the summer. Yes it does during the summer especially rely on tourism to swell the numbers but Bletchleyite is wrong to say there are other alternative routes. For most of West Yorkshire it is by far the most direct route to Carlisle and Western Scotland. Despite the large investments made to the line in recent years it has been mainly for infrastructure reasons, the line still lacks the investment in order to provide a fast service in modern stock. Lets not forget that it is also not just about passenger trains, with the WCML having major pathing problems the S&C is useful as a freight line not to mention the freight generated from the line itself.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I should at this point also mention I do have a soft spot for Morecambe, but of course Blackpool is always going to win in a poll between the two if you surveyed 100 people!

Morecambe has huge potential to be a nice resort, but it's really quite run down and not very nice as things stand. The Eden Project thing, if it goes ahead, should do it (and the railway) a fair few favours, Lancaster isn't very car-friendly being such an old city.

 

[wallan]

Could you not have a more Balanced Service if some of the Crews were based in The North West

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could you not have a more Balanced Service if some of the Crews were based in The North West

Because it's a double ended branch line (effectively) it probably does need to be operated from both ends in order to have peak arrivals/departures from both ends at suitable times. Otherwise you're choosing to serve commuters at only one end.

 

[30907]

Could you not have a more Balanced Service if some of the Crews were based in The North West

You could withdraw the early Skipton-Lancaster and late return, though rumour has it that there are sometimes London passengers from Bentham on the early one. I've never used it, even when I lived nearer Skipton!
What is actually needed from a commuter viewpoint, I imagine, is a train getting to Lancaster around 0815, which would need to originate from Skipton (or Leeds), and that would require an extra unit (the 2019 and 2020 timetable had an 0915-ish arrival, but that had IIRC already done an early commuter trip into Leeds on another route).
Operating the route from Skipton actually works quite well in normal times.

 

[yorksrob]

You could withdraw the early Skipton-Lancaster and late return, though rumour has it that there are sometimes London passengers from Bentham on the early one. I've never used it, even when I lived nearer Skipton!
What is actually needed from a commuter viewpoint, I imagine, is a train getting to Lancaster around 0815, which would need to originate from Skipton (or Leeds), and that would require an extra unit (the 2019 and 2020 timetable had an 0915-ish arrival, but that had IIRC already done an early commuter trip into Leeds on another route).
Operating the route from Skipton actually works quite well in normal times.

I've used the late return from Lancaster a few times.

It can be handy getting back from Cumbria, or if there's an issue with the 8:30. The connection at Skipton can be a bit iffy at times though.

 

[30907]

I've used the late return from Lancaster a few times.

Out of interest, how did it load pre-Covid? I used the late Up Carlisle a couple of summers ago and was pleasantly surprised to see numbers into double figures - new trains take a while to catch on generally.

 

[yorksrob]

Out of interest, how did it load pre-Covid? I used the late Up Carlisle a couple of summers ago and was pleasantly surprised to see numbers into double figures - new trains take a while to catch on generally.

Usually double figures on a weekend. Week days single figures.

It's the sort of train where if you're going ECS anyway, you might as well run it in service.

 

[Whisky Papa]

Because it's a double ended branch line (effectively) it probably does need to be operated from both ends in order to have peak arrivals/departures from both ends at suitable times. Otherwise you're choosing to serve commuters at only one end.

A new crew depot at Lancaster might be a useful development overall. At present the options are Barrow, Blackburn, Blackpool or Wigan, none of which are particularly close to hand.

 

[route101]

Use the evening service from Leeds to Carlisle to connect up to Glasgow about once a year, not the only ones connecting i notice. Its been discussed before, but would like to see a through Glasgow to Leeds service! Cheaper going this way rather than ECML too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A new crew depot at Lancaster might be a useful development overall. At present the options are Barrow, Blackburn, Blackpool or Wigan, none of which are particularly close to hand.

Barrow isn't terribly far away. You could argue it'd make more sense to operate Lancaster-Morecambe (at least) as a shuttle using a unit and crew from there than from the Yorkshire side. To be fair Wigan isn't exactly miles either.

Was it operated from the west side in FNW days?

 

[Whisky Papa]

Barrow isn't terribly far away. You could argue it'd make more sense to operate Lancaster-Morecambe (at least) as a shuttle using a unit and crew from there than from the Yorkshire side. To be fair Wigan isn't exactly miles either.

Was it operated from the west side in FNW days?

Lancaster - Morecambe shuttles are indeed worked mostly by Barrow, as far as I'm aware. If you are suggesting truncating the Leeds - Morecambe service at Lancaster, it might make operational sense but there are still some through passengers (often pensioners) for whom a change at Lancaster would seem a massive disincentive.

I don't know how far back you would have to go to find west-side involvement on the line, but I would suggest at least before FNW. When I was involved in Northern's planning in 2007/8, you could have easily split the company down the middle into its former constituents from the crew diagramming point of view. Only the Calder Valley / Copy Pit lines were jointly operated, and I'm not aware that situation has really changed since.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lancaster - Morecambe shuttles are indeed worked mostly by Barrow, as far as I'm aware. If you are suggesting truncating the Leeds - Morecambe service at Lancaster, it might make operational sense but there are still some through passengers (often pensioners) for whom a change at Lancaster would seem a massive disincentive.

Are that many people actually travelling through? It's not like Morecambe is a particularly desirable destination, it's more residential and for locals these days, though the Eden Project could change that.

I thought the shuttles were mostly worked by the incoming unit from Leeds doing a couple of shuttles then heading back, replaced by the one coming in?

 

[Whisky Papa]

Are that many people actually travelling through? It's not like Morecambe is a particularly desirable destination, it's more residential and for locals these days, though the Eden Project could change that.

I thought the shuttles were mostly worked by the incoming unit from Leeds doing a couple of shuttles then heading back, replaced by the one coming in?

Not a huge number in absolute terms, no, although perhaps a more attractive service (and a more attractive vision of Morecambe!) might improve numbers.

There may have been the odd shuttle worked by the Leeds unit, but certainly not the majority. I notice that the ECS for the Morecambe branch 5C79 is currently from Blackpool - I'm sure in my day it was from Barrow at a similar sort of time. Perhaps some current Northern staff could confirm operational details at some point.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not a huge number in absolute terms, no, although perhaps a more attractive service (and a more attractive vision of Morecambe!) might improve numbers.

Yes, probably. But it would need the more attractive vision of Morecambe first, which in part would involve deciding what the town should become (other than what it is now, which is a run-down dump compared with beautiful Lancaster nearby). Should it become a party destination like Blackpool, or a family holiday destination, or a destination for pensioners to have a nice seaside break (like Southport sort of is, or Llandudno definitely is), or what? As it can't really do all of those things very well as they have conflicting needs. I suspect "family destination" would work well with the Eden Project, but it will need a lot of sprucing up for that.

 

[yorksrob]

Are that many people actually travelling through? It's not like Morecambe is a particularly desirable destination, it's more residential and for locals these days, though the Eden Project could change that.

I thought the shuttles were mostly worked by the incoming unit from Leeds doing a couple of shuttles then heading back, replaced by the one coming in?

As I've said in the past, whenever I get on or off at Lancaster, there usually seem to be a few travelling through. Quite a few sometimes.

Yes, probably. But it would need the more attractive vision of Morecambe first, which in part would involve deciding what the town should become (other than what it is now, which is a run-down dump compared with beautiful Lancaster nearby). Should it become a party destination like Blackpool, or a family holiday destination, or a destination for pensioners to have a nice seaside break (like Southport sort of is, or Llandudno definitely is), or what? As it can't really do all of those things very well as they have conflicting needs. I suspect "family destination" would work well with the Eden Project, but it will need a lot of sprucing up for that.

Or an English version of Sausalito, California, as Bill Bryson once suggested.