The Key mess (non-season tickets)

[stut]

So, had a very long conversation with GTR (TSGN) customer services this morning, and am none the wiser.

I now commute by train irregularly, and don't necessarily know when until the night before. Given the massive queues and barely-functioning machines at my local station, buying Anytime Single/Return tickets for my Key smartcard the night before seems like an ideal solution, no?

Well, I tried it for a one-way and it worked a treat. Well, apart from a ticket inspector on the train who insisted it could only be used for season tickets, I needed to carry the season receipt and he had no reader to verify... But the barriers opened, and I touched out OK.

Booked a return a week later. But then I ended up having to work from home. Looked to see if I could get a refund, but the "refund guarantee" seems to apply to paper tickets only. There is an offline refund process that involves form-printing and sending off, but it "may have a fee of £10". So I just shrugged and thought, well, that's £5 sunk, who cares.

Big mistake.

Bought a single this morning. Tried to touch in, but I got a "ticket expired" error. Asked station staff, they told me they can't do anything with the Key, but I managed to get a paper ticket in time and got on the train.

Phoned customer services. Turns out the unused ticket was "blocking" the new ticket from being uploaded, and that I should have applied for a refund (not that the form would have reached them in time). But it gets more confusing.

In order to get a ticket removed/refunded, it has to be uploaded to the smartcard. So if you're not travelling, you have to go to the departure station and touch in in order for it to be uploaded and cancelled. If you've got two in a queue, you have to hold it over for 10 seconds or something. And you can't use any new tickets until you've done this, then got the refund processed.

But then they're insisting that, to process the refund, they have a copy of the paper ticket because "barrier staff have been letting people through with the confirmation email". Being a one-way, though, it was retained in the barriers. So now I have a bunch of unused tickets, and an unusable smartcard.

Quite apart from the awful, convoluted design on this, does this advice sound right to you? I need to return to the departure station to touch in on a ticket I'm not going to use, given them a paper ticket that's been swallowed by the barriers, and send them a bunch of offline forms before I can use the card again? Seriously?

 

[KatieLouLou]

So, had a very long conversation with TSGN customer services this morning, and am none the wiser.

I now commute by train irregularly, and don't necessarily know when until the night before. Given the massive queues and barely-functioning machines at my local station, buying Anytime Single/Return tickets for my Key smartcard the night before seems like an ideal solution, no?

Well, I tried it for a one-way and it worked a treat. Well, apart from a ticket inspector on the train who insisted it could only be used for season tickets, I needed to carry the season receipt and he had no reader to verify... But the barriers opened, and I touched out OK.

Booked a return a week later. But then I ended up having to work from home. Looked to see if I could get a refund, but the "refund guarantee" seems to apply to paper tickets only. There is an offline refund process that involves form-printing and sending off, but it "may have a fee of £10". So I just shrugged and thought, well, that's £5 sunk, who cares.

Big mistake.

Bought a single this morning. Tried to touch in, but I got a "ticket expired" error. Asked station staff, they told me they can't do anything with the Key, but I managed to get a paper ticket in time and got on the train.

Phoned customer services. Turns out the unused ticket was "blocking" the new ticket from being uploaded, and that I should have applied for a refund (not that the form would have reached them in time). But it gets more confusing.

In order to get a ticket removed/refunded, it has to be uploaded to the smartcard. So if you're not travelling, you have to go to the departure station and touch in in order for it to be uploaded and cancelled. If you've got two in a queue, you have to hold it over for 10 seconds or something. And you can't use any new tickets until you've done this, then got the refund processed.

But then they're insisting that, to process the refund, they have a copy of the paper ticket because "barrier staff have been letting people through with the confirmation email". Being a one-way, though, it was retained in the barriers. So now I have a bunch of unused tickets, and an unusable smartcard.

Quite apart from the awful, convoluted design on this, does this advice sound right to you? I need to return to the departure station to touch in on a ticket I'm not going to use, given them a paper ticket that's been swallowed by the barriers, and send them a bunch of offline forms before I can use the card again? Seriously?

Doesn't help get a refund, but ho wmany "unused" tickets do you have on your Key card? It can only hold a maximum of 5.

Have you tried the pay as you go version (KeyGo) - which does work even trying convoluted journeys - and would negate the need to buy a ticket online beforehand at all.

 

[stut]

Doesn't help get a refund, but ho wmany "unused" tickets do you have on your Key card? It can only hold a maximum of 5.

Have you tried the pay as you go version (KeyGo) - which does work even trying convoluted journeys - and would negate the need to buy a ticket online beforehand at all.

I now have 2 unused tickets. The problem (according to the call centre) is that an unused ticket 'blocks' the next ticket from being uploaded to the card.

Am up in GN-land, so I don't believe KeyGo has made it up this way just yet... Would be ideal if it did!

 

[Joe Paxton]

I now have 2 unused tickets. The problem (according to the call centre) is that an unused ticket 'blocks' the next ticket from being uploaded to the card.

If that is how it really works, then it is a masterclass in inept design. However I will hold fire on that judgement as the TSGN call centre agent(s) you spoke to may have the wrong end of the stick...

Am up in GN-land, so I don't believe KeyGo has made it up this way just yet... Would be ideal if it did!

Worth noting that keyGo in Southern-land doesn't extend to London (yet), though does go as far north as Mertsham (on the BML) and Epsom, which are the first stations just outside the London zones.

keyGo also has this utterly ridiculous design feature:

You need to allow 3 minutes between the time you touch out at a train station and touch in on a bus

 

[Dann]

Am up in GN-land, so I don't believe KeyGo has made it up this way just yet... Would be ideal if it did!

I didn't realise you could buy non-season tickets on the Key on GN? Did you buy it through the GN website or one of the other GTR sites?

 

[stut]

I didn't realise you could buy non-season tickets on the Key on GN? Did you buy it through the GN website or one of the other GTR sites?

Through Southern.

Consider the above a warning though!

Also be aware that Super Off-Peak tickets aren't available for The Key - if you select the Key option, you'll be given the Off-Peak fare, even at weekends (which is pretty damn cheeky).

 

[Hadders]

The Key is best avoided.

The OP could always consider paper carnet tickets, although be careful to make sure they're correctly validated before departure.

 

[bubieyehyeh]

Does anyone know if with "key go" its is possible to "add a railcard" so if you use it off-peak it charges the discounted rate (like oyster can). I suspect it's not possible and never will be.

I've managed to buy a gold-card discounted ticket for the key. It would just be easier to use key-go if it allow me to use my gold card discount.

The key does seem to have an "Entitlement" field according an app that can read my key.

 

[stut]

The Key is best avoided.

The OP could always consider paper carnet tickets, although be careful to make sure they're correctly validated before departure.

No carnets on my route, sadly. I'm not headed to Cambridge or London and my origin station is our ungated.

 

[Panda]

If that is how it really works, then it is a masterclass in inept design. However I will hold fire on that judgement as the TSGN call centre agent(s) you spoke to may have the wrong end of the stick...

Yes, that is really how it works!! This is what happens if you design a smartcard with no clear and specific use in mind. ITSO was designed to do everything from being used for travel to being used as library cards, however, due to the many poorly implemented/designed features, most of it isn't used and the bits which are used, don't always work very well.

 

[KatieLouLou]

Does anyone know if with "key go" its is possible to "add a railcard" so if you use it off-peak it charges the discounted rate (like oyster can). I suspect it's not possible and never will be.

I've managed to buy a gold-card discounted ticket for the key. It would just be easier to use key-go if it allow me to use my gold card discount.

The key does seem to have an "Entitlement" field according an app that can read my key.

Not possible yet with KeyGo; if you require a railcard discount then you will need to purchase tickets in advance and load them onto the Key.

 

[stut]

Yes, that is really how it works!! This is what happens if you design a smartcard with no clear and specific use in mind. ITSO was designed to do everything from being used for travel to being used as library cards, however, due to the many poorly implemented/designed features, most of it isn't used and the bits which are used, don't always work very well.

It's not so much the smartcard that seems to be the problem in this particular instance, but rather how the back-end workflow has been designed. The smartcard basically (AFAICS) allows for 5 ticket slots. The card readers will attempt to read those slots and/or upload a new ticket and/or end a used ticket. So, for the main flow, it's simple: buy, upload to server, upload to smartcard, read smartcard, end ticket.

But the alternate paths haven't been considered. If a ticket isn't used in its validity period, it isn't automatically removed. There's no front end to allow the end-user to do so. There's no ability for station ticket machines or offices to do so. If there's overlap, there's no way to prioritise.

This workflow also makes it impossible to manage combination season/extension tickets.

There's a lot of sort out here. But this seems more like back-end systems than the smartcard specs at fault.

 

[bubieyehyeh]

Another broken process is that if you want to buy two tickets on the key, you seem to have to buy one, get the ticket loaded before you can buy the second.

I was considering using it to get to gatwick airport and back a week later, but for the journey you have to buy two singles since there are no period returns available. So seems a massive faff to load both tickets if not passing by a station in advance.

With ToD you can pick up at any station, but I'm guessing with the key it will only load at the station you selected.

 

[najaB]

With ToD you can pick up at any station, but I'm guessing with the key it will only load at the station you selected.

I don't know about The Key, but other smart card systems let you collect at any station.

 

[island]

What an utter shambles.

 

[stut]

So, an update... I had a few successful runs, and then another failure where I had to buy a paper ticket. Having contacted TSGN again, I got a reply (from someone more senior in the Key team) saying that they reason it failed this time is because they have blocked single/return fares from being valid on the GN route, although have not yet managed to prevent the website from selling them (<slow handclap>).

But that's still 4 fares they haven't refunded, now with an insistence that I provide full documentation of having travelled that day in case "the barrier staff let me though anyway". I do have one or two return tickets (the barriers retained the outbound ones as I had no idea I would require this) but am not at all happy with this approach, nor the time it is taking to resolve. As I paid with PayPal, I've registered a dispute.

I would really appreciate KeyGo up here. The weekly season on the route I use is appalling value - £23.30/week vs £5/day!

 

[jon0844]

I managed to buy and use a single ticket before it officially launched (again, via their website). The tickets were removed from TVMs some time ago, and was never set up properly.

But, PAYG is coming they say. Also, discounts for what I assume is regular usage (something like price capping I assume, or maybe just a loyalty discount) and point to point tickets.

So they've got a lot to sort out.

The advertising campaign for the new design Key cards (individual for GN, TL, GX and SN) ends at the end of July and I would hope the new features come before then, or soon after.

They are, after all, trying to encourage as many customers as possible to get a Key card. The new S&B machines do seem a little better at letting you buy season tickets (including up to a week or two in advance) than the Shere machines I last tried back when the Key launched on GN.

I would recommend people apply for a card and hold on to it, as when PAYG comes it should be quite good for those at stations where Oyster isn't available.

 

[dlj83]

One thing I don't understand, would the key stop working if thameslink or great northern lose the franchise and another operator takes over.

Surely there should be just one national card?

 

[jon0844]

One thing I don't understand, would the key stop working if thameslink or great northern lose the franchise and another operator takes over.

Surely there should be just one national card?

Yes, and it should have been managed and implemented for the DfT by RDG. Then let each operator brand their cards and nothing else.

 

[takno]

Yes, and it should have been managed and implemented for the DfT by RDG. Then let each operator brand their cards and nothing else.

If you start branding the cards you're going to spread the idea that they aren't interchangeable. For non-advance shorter-distance services contactless seems to make the whole thing redundant anyway

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you start branding the cards you're going to spread the idea that they aren't interchangeable. For non-advance shorter-distance services contactless seems to make the whole thing redundant anyway

And self print / mobile for Advances.

It really was short lived i think.

 

[jon0844]

If you start branding the cards you're going to spread the idea that they aren't interchangeable. For non-advance shorter-distance services contactless seems to make the whole thing redundant anyway

I would have proposed a common brand, like National Rail (with the BR logo) and then with space to customise.. plus the ITSO logo for additional familiarity.

As it is, the ITSO logo is on all the cards I've seen (and bus passes for pensioners) but that's not enough, and the bigger problem is how each variant works (or doesn't).

You can look at the many variations of Oyster card for some ideas, but the idea would definitely be that there was a smartcard usable throughout the UK, and in an ideal world that would also cover other modes of transport.

I did also hope we could have seen an EU-wide system, but we may never be part of that even if one day such a thing became reality.

 

[radamfi]

I've had KeyGo on my card since it started and it has been fine. However, since I got a season ticket on it last month I have had a lot of incomplete journeys. I religiously touch in and out and so should never have had an incomplete journey but a lot of the touches were not showing on my account. For a couple of weeks, I got an email almost everyday saying that I had to phone up because I had an incomplete journey, otherwise there would be a £25 charge. Eventually, they said that because I had a season ticket I no longer need to phone up. So it sounds like they are letting me off any incomplete journeys, even ones which are my fault.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Yes, and it should have been managed and implemented for the DfT by RDG. Then let each operator brand their cards and nothing else.

Don't be impatient

 

[MikeWh]

Don't be impatient


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I'm sorry but your posts seem to delight in intrigue and as such do not add that much to the forum. In particular, this comment doesn't actually bear any relevance to the point being made in the excerpt quoted.

 

[jon0844]

I was confused too

 

[sheff1]

I'm sorry but your posts seem to delight in intrigue and as such do not add that much to the forum. In particular, this comment doesn't actually bear any relevance to the point being made in the excerpt quoted.

I find the "ignore list" function is ideal in such circumstances - you then only get to see the posts if someone quotes them.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I'm sorry but your posts seem to delight in intrigue and as such do not add that much to the forum. In particular, this comment doesn't actually bear any relevance to the point being made in the excerpt quoted.

OK no problem sorry to use up your intrigue for no reason , I'll refrain from posting from now on.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[stut]

To be fair, Japan works OK with a huge number of interoperable public transport cards (Suica, ICOCA, Pasmo, PiTaPa, etc, etc) and baffling array of private railways, so that's not a problem in itself - it's all in the execution. If they can extend PayGo to GN-land and make it work, I can't wait.

Managed to get the money back on the failed journeys from GN - after much mucking about, they refunded it immediately as soon as I escalated to PayPal.

 

[jon0844]

Some TVMs are no longer working with ITSO/The Key, and the option is ghosted out. Likewise, the reader does nothing when you tap a card on it.

Not sure what's going on there.