• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

The legacy of Margaret Thatcher lives on

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

fowler9

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2013
Messages
8,367
Location
Liverpool
But the principle is the same, is it not?
Yes but I was replying to someone talking about people moving from the North to the South for more money, not a brain surgeon selling pies in Ilkley so they didn't leave the town.
 

judethegreat

Member
Joined
21 Mar 2011
Messages
157
In 1990 BT was subject to independent regulation by Oftel - presumably, it was Oftel and not the government that made the decision that BT had to sell off any of its operations at this time?

Who privatised British Telecom and took away its role as the automatic telecoms infrastructure provider for the UK? And who created oftel?
 

Moonshot

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2013
Messages
3,647
Who privatised British Telecom and took away its role as the automatic telecoms infrastructure provider for the UK? And who created oftel?

Not quite sure of the point, but in 2017, just how much choice does everyone have in providing an internet connection ?
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,316
Not quite sure of the point, but in 2017, just how much choice does everyone have in providing an internet connection ?

Well, here I have the choice of dozens of different providers over a cable owned by BT, Virgin Media over a different cable, and three different mobile networks, either direct or via a reseller.

I accept that that's not the case everywhere, for technical/economic/political reasons.
 

Moonshot

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2013
Messages
3,647
Well, here I have the choice of dozens of different providers over a cable owned by BT, Virgin Media over a different cable, and three different mobile networks, either direct or via a reseller.

I accept that that's not the case everywhere, for technical/economic/political reasons.

Of course the same goes for Gas and Electric etc......but sticking to the transport theme, how much choice does the average UK air traveller to Europe now have? And at what sort of prices? Isnt it true that since aviation was de regulated and real competition introduced, more an dmore of us are now flying off somewhere in Europe? The impact of competition on railways is far less pronounced, but where it has been feasible, isnt it true that a traveller from Birmingham to London has some choice ? And some on the ECML?
 

fowler9

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2013
Messages
8,367
Location
Liverpool
Of course the same goes for Gas and Electric etc......but sticking to the transport theme, how much choice does the average UK air traveller to Europe now have? And at what sort of prices? Isnt it true that since aviation was de regulated and real competition introduced, more an dmore of us are now flying off somewhere in Europe? The impact of competition on railways is far less pronounced, but where it has been feasible, isnt it true that a traveller from Birmingham to London has some choice ? And some on the ECML?
I don't think it is the same for gas and electric, it is uterly ridiculous. The gas and electricity comes from the same rigs and power stations. It is a bizarre cabal.
 

Moonshot

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2013
Messages
3,647
I don't think it is the same for gas and electric, it is uterly ridiculous. The gas and electricity comes from the same rigs and power stations. It is a bizarre cabal.

No.....I have some choice as to who to choose to supply my gas and electric....how the chain of supply is organised is of no concern to me. Having one operator who controls the entire generation and supply of power with no price signals from the consumer is the ultimate monopoly.
 

fowler9

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2013
Messages
8,367
Location
Liverpool
No.....I have some choice as to who to choose to supply my gas and electric....how the chain of supply is organised is of no concern to me. Having one operator who controls the entire generation and supply of power with no price signals from the consumer is the ultimate monopoly.
It pretty much is a monopoly. How do you reckon one company is buying gas or electricity cheaper than another when they don't produce or supply the product? Race to the bottom.
 

judethegreat

Member
Joined
21 Mar 2011
Messages
157
Relating to the original post, if the refered article is correct it seems a prime example of something which may have been better if it had stayed just one organisation carrying out one unified plan.

I'm not usually convinced competition is always good. Duplication of resources, potential for winners and losers with direct human effects, difficult interaction between them both operationally and for users, and more...

Our rail network was built in such a way which gave us the legacy of a disjointed, ununified and duplicative network, rather than there being a central body saying "we need a line from here to here - who's gonna build it (with your own money, and keep the profits)?"*

*Just thinking of a compromise method to keep the capitalists happy and to be realistic in our current (western industrial) economic model...

Aye there's choice but why is that so necessary? Just adds confusion and complication. Keeping prices down is the mantra.. Well surely all the regulatory efforts (another new industry created.....) that deal with conflict between companies, and often, as in this case, prevent competion and progress, could instead be used to keep prices low. Perhaps class broadband as an essential utility as water should be??
 
Last edited:

Moonshot

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2013
Messages
3,647
It pretty much is a monopoly. How do you reckon one company is buying gas or electricity cheaper than another when they don't produce or supply the product? Race to the bottom.

Like I said, I have no concern how the supply chain is organised. I have a choice as to who I buy my home power from. It doesnt get simpler than picking a supplier who can power my home.....and there are numerous companies all willing to provide that service at varying price points. I could even supply my own if I choose to fit solar panels.....solar panels of which there is now a decent market for with a good choice.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
32,270
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
*Just thinking of a compromise method to keep the capitalists happy and to be realistic in our current (western industrial) economic model...

Going back to the very early days on the canals and railways, if there were none of those said capitalists, how much of the canal and railway systems of Britain would have been built in those days?
 

judethegreat

Member
Joined
21 Mar 2011
Messages
157
Going back to the very early days on the canals and railways, if there were none of those said capitalists, how much of the canal and railway systems of Britain would have been built in those days?

Seeing as I obviously want to live in the old Soviet Union ;), well, they were just as industrial as us...

Edit - ok, just realised my history's a bit out as it only became the Soviet Union after most of the railways were built (presuming they were built at the same sort of time as ours)..
 
Last edited:

Moonshot

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2013
Messages
3,647
Going back to the very early days on the canals and railways, if there were none of those said capitalists, how much of the canal and railway systems of Britain would have been built in those days?

Correct. A fact often lost on the average poster.......and if railways were actually a new invention today and somehow a complete network was built overnight tonite with 21st century technology, just how much more effiecient and cost effective would it be compared to how it is now irrespective of who actually owns it ?
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,316
Going back to the very early days on the canals and railways, if there were none of those said capitalists, how much of the canal and railway systems of Britain would have been built in those days?

Don't forget that some of those capitalists made little or no return on their investment, or even lost their money, but what they funded is still in use today and now in public ownership.
 

fowler9

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2013
Messages
8,367
Location
Liverpool
Like I said, I have no concern how the supply chain is organised. I have a choice as to who I buy my home power from. It doesnt get simpler than picking a supplier who can power my home.....and there are numerous companies all willing to provide that service at varying price points. I could even supply my own if I choose to fit solar panels.....solar panels of which there is now a decent market for with a good choice.
You don't really have a choice though. You are just being charged what the energy providers think they can get away with. It all comes from the same places, having it privatised just adds is extra levels of cost to get the energy source to you.
 

fowler9

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2013
Messages
8,367
Location
Liverpool
I despair ever time I see that ridiculous phrase appear in print...<(

However, since racing terminology is being used, who is the current short-odds favourite to win this "race to the bottom"
Those already wealthy. You are very easily wound up if that phrase makes you despair.
 

Moonshot

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2013
Messages
3,647
You don't really have a choice though. You are just being charged what the energy providers think they can get away with. It all comes from the same places, having it privatised just adds is extra levels of cost to get the energy source to you.

I really am going to put this simple as follows

A person with a flat in Liverpool has a budget of £40 per month for electric. He or she gets the following quotes...

Quote A £30/month
Quote B £35/month
Quote C £40/month

Now electricity does not come in different flavours .....it powers kettle Tvs and computers etc etc

The rational person choose Quote A........so my question to you is ....what does that person do with the £10 saving per month?

It really doesnt get any simpler than that.
 

fowler9

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2013
Messages
8,367
Location
Liverpool
I really am going to put this simple as follows

A person with a flat in Liverpool has a budget of £40 per month for electric. He or she gets the following quotes...

Quote A £30/month
Quote B £35/month
Quote C £40/month

Now electricity does not come in different flavours .....it powers kettle Tvs and computers etc etc

The rational person choose Quote A........so my question to you is ....what does that person do with the £10 saving per month?

It really doesnt get any simpler than that.
Ha ha. Fair play. There is of course a difference between what gets quoted and what gets charged. I work in a specific area of housing and a lot of the rest of the building I work in deals with Smart Meters. I do get to hear all this.
 

Moonshot

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2013
Messages
3,647
Ha ha. Fair play. There is of course a difference between what gets quoted and what gets charged. I work in a specific area of housing and a lot of the rest of the building I work in deals with Smart Meters. I do get to hear all this.

So then you will agree that the end user ( be it a flat, housing association or Network rail ) can influence the price of electrical supply based on their ability to purchase from more than one supplier? If so, eureka, welcome to the world of free maket competition !!!
 

fowler9

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2013
Messages
8,367
Location
Liverpool
So then you will agree that the end user ( be it a flat, housing association or Network rail ) can influence the price of electrical supply based on their ability to purchase from more than one supplier? If so, eureka, welcome to the world of free maket competition !!!
Not at all. Since the product is all coming from the same place and going down the same wires or pipelines then someone, somewhere is losing out if someone is paying less for more.
 

Moonshot

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2013
Messages
3,647
Not at all. Since the product is all coming from the same place and going down the same wires or pipelines then someone, somewhere is losing out if someone is paying less for more.

But not you as the end consumer paying £30/month. And if all constituents in the supply of electricity are happy and making a profit what is the issue ?
 

fowler9

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2013
Messages
8,367
Location
Liverpool
But not you as the end consumer paying £30/month. And if all constituents in the supply of electricity are happy and making a profit what is the issue ?
That is next to impossible to argue with. Still someone is losing out though on something produced pretty equally. In an ideal world someone will find a way of quoting the cheapest price to everyone and then there will be no point in various companies providing it, or rather selling it.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,693
Location
Scotland
Not at all. Since the product is all coming from the same place and going down the same wires or pipelines then someone, somewhere is losing out if someone is paying less for more.
Someone is, indeed, losing out. But this is usually investors not getting as big a return on their investment which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,316
Someone is, indeed, losing out. But this is usually investors not getting as big a return on their investment which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

The other group who lose out is those who don't seek out the cheapest deal. I check annually or whenever the fixed tariff I'm on ends and usually end up switching and getting cashback equal to about a month's energy bill.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,693
Location
Scotland
The other group who lose out is those who don't seek out the cheapest deal.
Give the work that has been put into making it easier to find out if cheaper tariffs are available - including suppliers being required to write to customers annually to tell them if they have a cheaper tariff, I don't have *that* much sympathy for people who don't switch.
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,075
Electricity, gas, telecoms, water, rail (and post) are alike in that there is only one trunk network, and in a lot of cases only one local distributor. Even the firms pretending to compete with Royal Mail have thrown in the towel, apart from the ones collecting pre-sorted mail and dumping the delivery on the post office.
The pretend "market" in gas and electricity supply is a fraud because the various grids' prices are just passed on. The water companies make their regulator a laughing stock.
The only competition is between gas from the north sea and gas imported from the middle east, but I recognise that there are a lot more sources of electricity nowadays. I still think that the pretence of competing suppliers costs us more than a managed supply to a National Gas board would, though.
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,316
Give the work that has been put into making it easier to find out if cheaper tariffs are available - including suppliers being required to write to customers annually to tell them if they have a cheaper tariff, I don't have *that* much sympathy for people who don't switch.

Agreed.

Electricity, gas, telecoms, water, rail (and post) are alike in that there is only one trunk network, and in a lot of cases only one local distributor. Even the firms pretending to compete with Royal Mail have thrown in the towel, apart from the ones collecting pre-sorted mail and dumping the delivery on the post office.
The pretend "market" in gas and electricity supply is a fraud because the various grids' prices are just passed on. The water companies make their regulator a laughing stock.
The only competition is between gas from the north sea and gas imported from the middle east, but I recognise that there are a lot more sources of electricity nowadays. I still think that the pretence of competing suppliers costs us more than a managed supply to a National Gas board would, though.

Ultimately, it depends in whether you want to choose your tariff from a range of options offered by competing suppliers or pay what the politicians decide
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top