The Manual

[talltim]

Yorkie
Let me give you a fiddle as old as time.

Travel without getting your outward ticket stamped or cancelled and then next time you travel use that and only pay for one way. Better still as long as the outward is valid then keep using it. This is one of the reasons that BR went to day of issue validity in many cases.

Another example that isvalid is the case of a Milton Keynes Central to New St ticket. This is cheaper (certainly was last time I had any dealings) than the corresponding reverse journey. So a again a fiddle is to buy the ticket and use only the return portion for the outward journey. THAT is yet another example of why the rule is there and I can see no hardship for that being the case.

Because tickets are priced selectively for flows this situation can arise. Again it is a potential source of abuse and loss of revenue to the Railway. Until there is a cast iron means of preventing fare evasion, then it is necessary to put up with such things. You cannot achieve a perfect world out there but I sometimes feel that you neglect to think about the other side of the argument. I think I know you well enough to say that without you taking offence.

Just because some people may fiddle things, doesn't mean that other people should be penalised when not fiddling, but not being aware of rules that are published in a location not available to the public.
If you were arrested tomorrow for accessing RAILUK forums, would you complain? of course you would.
"But people use the RAILUK forums for to learn how to split ticket, and we've written a new law banning its use."
"Where is that law written? Oh, its in our secret book, you aren't allowed to see it"

 

[Old Timer]

Just because some people may fiddle things, doesn't mean that other people should be penalised when not fiddling, but not being aware of rules that are published in a location not available to the public.
If you were arrested tomorrow for accessing RAILUK forums, would you complain? of course you would.
"But people use the RAILUK forums for to learn how to split ticket, and we've written a new law banning its use."
"Where is that law written? Oh, its in our secret book, you aren't allowed to see it"

Tim/cuccir For clarity I was not trying to defend the fact that it is "secret" rather the reasons behind the rule.

I do agree that there is more that should possibly be in the public domain, and to be frank with you the more and more I read about these things the more I wish we simply went back to the BR way of doing things, it was simpler, easier to understand and in general it seemed to cause less upset and argument than we seem to have now. That includes ticket types and charging mechanisms.

 

[LexyBoy]

But if people understood how fares and ticketing work, they wouldn't waste money on inappropriate tickets...

 

[Paul Kelly]

information that would be regarded as commercially sensitive, such as the sections on Payment (which includes credit/debit/charge card floor limits), Revenue Protection and contact details for TOC Pricing Managers.

Just to point out that the old printed fares manuals (the ones available for purchase by members of the public) also contained contact details for pricing managers.

One of the reasons for contradictory information is often where there is a technical validity description which some well-meaning person translates into plain English but accidentally changes the meaning of! The objective over the next couple of years is to go through all this data and basically to ensure that the source data is comprehensible and written to a high standard - this ought to prevent the above scenario.

This sounds like a very laudable aim. I think it really just comes down to ATOC employing someone competent and with an eye for detail to oversee the work and pick up on discrepancies! That seems to be what is missing at the minute. It doesn't necessarily need to be a huge IT project.

But incidentally, I don't see any reason why it should not be possible to automate (with a suitably well-designed computer program) the generation of human-readable descriptions of restrictions and easements from the computer-readable versions. This would go a huge way to reducing inconsistencies and would I'm sure be a very valuable aid to the people doing data entry of restrictions/easements in computer-readable format, that they had got them right.

 

[Old Timer]

But if people understood how fares and ticketing work, they wouldn't waste money on inappropriate tickets...

I think the one thing everyone probably is in agreement with is the complexity of tickets, restrictions, and validities. The way that pricing has also changed gives lie to an encouragement to people to travel outside the restrictions of ridiculously cheap tickets when an adjoining station may be considerable more expensive as we have seen on the many and varied posts we have seen over the past couple of years. The various Megatrain tickets in particular.

I favour a much simpler system and in support of this I would point to the length and depth of the many running arguments that have been on here recently in connection with ticketing.

I have been looking at Swedish rail ticketing and to be frank it is basic and simple and probably has none of the issues we suffer here.

 

[RJ]

But if people understood how fares and ticketing work, they wouldn't waste money on inappropriate tickets...

That's what sites like this exist for, to help people get a better deal. I certainly used to help customers who came to my window to get the best price. Indeed, I spent plenty of time playing with the ticket machine - more hidden discounts and dodgy anomalies like that 10p Chiltern ticket than one could shake a stick at.

Perhaps a nice list should be compiled and sent to ATOC for rectification . At least then, we won't have self professed "ticket savvy" people moaning about the fact that the masses aren't able to exploit loopholes in the system :roll:

 

[bb21]

Yorkie
Another example that isvalid is the case of a Milton Keynes Central to New St ticket. This is cheaper (certainly was last time I had any dealings) than the corresponding reverse journey. So a again a fiddle is to buy the ticket and use only the return portion for the outward journey. THAT is yet another example of why the rule is there and I can see no hardship for that being the case.

I can understand your point about using the outward portion repeatedly, however this one is absurd. There is no rule stated in public that a person must have used the outward portion before using the return, so the TOCs cannot enforce something that is a secret and not against any existing terms. The passenger is not breaking his/her journey either so even a restriction such as 3A cannot be any use here.

Just to confirm that there is a plan to publish the Manual. The only reason that it has not happened immediately is that the opporunity is being taken to review the contents, updating them where necessary. The Manual is populated by individual TOCs and by different ATOC departments, so (like Wikipedia) there are issues with consistency and quality that are being adressed as part of this. Also some parts will not be published for very good reasons (e.g. things that tell staff how to deal with irregular travel).
There is a recognised issue in the industry with the number of different systems and sources of information and the fact that they can contradict each other. There is a project to rationalise the multiple systems (which have rown up during and after the BR years as various individual manuals where converted to electronic format and then combined); and in parallel to ensure that the information they use is from common and reliable sources. One of the reasons for contradictory information is often where there is a technical validity description which some well-meaning person translates into plain English but accidentally changes the meaning of! The objective over the next couple of years is to go through all this data and basically to ensure that the source data is comprehensible and written to a high standard - this ought to prevent the above scenario. It will also mean that NRES and retail systems are powered form the same source (this is not currently the case for all of NRE's data feeds).

Good to hear.

 

[raildude]

I can understand your point about using the outward portion repeatedly, however this one is absurd. There is no rule stated in public that a person must have used the outward portion before using the return, so the TOCs cannot enforce something that is a secret and not against any existing terms. The passenger is not breaking his/her journey either so even a restriction such as 3A cannot be any use here.

I think "old timer" is saying people are using the return part as the outward, then using the outward part to return, which is not allowed.

 

[talltim]

Tim/cuccir For clarity I was not trying to defend the fact that it is "secret" rather the reasons behind the rule.

I do agree that there is more that should possibly be in the public domain, and to be frank with you the more and more I read about these things the more I wish we simply went back to the BR way of doing things, it was simpler, easier to understand and in general it seemed to cause less upset and argument than we seem to have now. That includes ticket types and charging mechanisms.

OK, fair enough. Sorry, I misunderstood you.

 

[RJ]

In order to resolve this problem, why not get in touch with ATOC and ask them to publish this rule in official literature. That way, it can be enforced and it'll close the loophole for all of you who take advantage of it!

I can't decide whether people on here want to help others save money or make it harder? Someone who is of the mindset of constantly picking at the system, whilst securing hefty savings for themselves through exploiting such rules, please clarify? I seriously don't believe that this exposure of rules which nobody can enforce (which can very easily be rectified) is intended to help anybody, particularly as ways to play the system are discussed on sites with restricted access!

 

[All Line Rover]

In order to resolve this problem, why not get in touch with ATOC and ask them to publish this rule in official literature. That way, it can be enforced and it'll close the loophole for all of you who take advantage of it!

I can't decide whether people on here want to help others save money or make it harder? Someone who is of the mindset of constantly picking at the system, whilst securing hefty savings for themselves through exploiting such rules, please clarify? I seriously don't believe that this exposure of rules which nobody can enforce (which can very easily be rectified) is intended to help anybody, particularly as ways to play the system are discussed on sites with restricted access!

I personally don't take advantage of these supposed "loopholes" with excess fares. I don't see the point (or even understand it!). I am simply concerned that the main "staff guide" contains information that runs contrary to the "definitive source of passenger information" (NRE), some of which may be beneficial to the passenger, some it which may not.

I was unaware that ATOC are planning to publish The Manual (even parts of it), which is definitely a step in a right direction. If they word it more simply for the public's benefit, then that's good too!

 

[premier01]

Go on then, give us some examples and we'll see if it's possible to find the same information in the public domain in one form or another!

The excess fares process.

 

[RJ]

The excess fares process.

The information you need is contained in the NRCoC and/or the NRE website. Next!

 

[premier01]

The information you need is contained in the NRCoC and/or the NRE website. Next!

Yes missed out some pages where this was discussed in a lot of details but......

I'm sorry-NRE either contradicts the manual or doesn't provide the costs for excess fares in enough detail-unless you can provide that link to the excess fares calculator-but I think it's already been established that that's a staff resource.

I do however agree that the NRE website would be the correct place for customers to access this but I think it would be cheaper just to open up the manual-at least as an interim solution.

 

[mallard]

In order to resolve this problem, why not get in touch with ATOC and ask them to publish this rule in official literature.

That'll fix that one issue, but this thread has already picked up several things that need fixing and it's expected that there are more. Without access, nobody can really tell.

So are we supposed to report each and every problem as it is "leaked" and wait for ATOC to "fix" it or claim that it's not an issue, then campaign further until an actual fix is put in place? That seems utterly ridiculous!

I've said it before and I'll say it again; You cannot tell staff one thing and passengers something different. Even if what staff are told is "not definitive", it's entirely reasonable for them to assume that what they've been told is correct unless they are shown evidence otherwise. How do you provide evidence of a negative? (I.e. that the rule an RPI is applying is not available to the public). You can't. TOC wins, as usual.

 

[ajdunlop]

There should be a tool on the NRE website where someone already in possession of a ticket can enter its details to find out its validity, this would display valid routes (preferably on a map), all time restrictions for the train companies you can use for that route. This would basically electronicify the routing guide and all the ticket restrictions and easements. Maybe even have a a link to info on how to excess your ticket.
They only way to continue with the current structure and be fair to passengers is to provide the tools to decipher it. Otherwise making it simple to understand is the only other option. This all wasn't really a problem before Advanced ticketing and the use of the Internet and advanced ticketing. Before then you could rely on the 'expert' (ticket office staff) to do the working out but now customers need to be able to.
Also with such a tool there would be no need for The Manual etc the tool itself could become the authority and both staff and passenger could use it to get the info.
But then again this is ATOC so there is no chance without DafT telling them to.

 

[barrykas]

There should be a tool on the NRE website where someone already in possession of a ticket can enter its details to find out its validity, this would display valid routes (preferably on a map), all time restrictions for the train companies you can use for that route.

That's all well and good for something relatively simple like Winchmore Hill to London, where your choices are basically to go to Moorgate or Kings Cross, but what about a journey like Aberdeen to Chippenham?

Looking at the Routeing Guide, there are 11 combinations of maps for daytime services, 4 for sleepers, and there's also an option of "London", which adds in the 3 combinations for Aberdeen to London and 4 for London to Chippenham.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[LexyBoy]

I think the one thing everyone probably is in agreement with is the complexity of tickets, restrictions, and validities. The way that pricing has also changed gives lie to an encouragement to people to travel outside the restrictions of ridiculously cheap tickets when an adjoining station may be considerable more expensive as we have seen on the many and varied posts we have seen over the past couple of years. The various Megatrain tickets in particular.

I favour a much simpler system and in support of this I would point to the length and depth of the many running arguments that have been on here recently in connection with ticketing.

I have been looking at Swedish rail ticketing and to be frank it is basic and simple and probably has none of the issues we suffer here.

I agree! My point was that ATOC are unlikely to be in favour of making things more transparent if it results in people buying less expensive tickets or making better use of the tickets they currently buy.

I firmly believe that if we had a simpler system which could be fully explained in a short leaflet, then travellers would be much more confident to travel and less likely to feel that they are being ripped off - meaning more travel and more income.

That's what sites like this exist for, to help people get a better deal. I certainly used to help customers who came to my window to get the best price. Indeed, I spent plenty of time playing with the ticket machine - more hidden discounts and dodgy anomalies like that 10p Chiltern ticket than one could shake a stick at.

Perhaps a nice list should be compiled and sent to ATOC for rectification . At least then, we won't have self professed "ticket savvy" people moaning about the fact that the masses aren't able to exploit loopholes in the system :roll:

It's not helping the Railway to have a system so complex that people are put off travelling by feeling they are being ripped off, or after bad experiences being caught out by T&Cs which are not immediately obvious.

When I said "inappropriate tickets", I wasn't talking about loopholes, splitting, anomalies etc - simply people buying tickets which are more expensive than needed. You say that you would always help customers find the best deal - that's great, and IME most ticket office staff are similarly helpful. The problem is that many TOCs are trying their hardest to persuade passengers to buy tickets anywhere but at ticket offices.

This, and a general confusion about ticket types results in:
- People buying Anytime tickets at the weekend ("I'm not sure when Off Peak is, let's get these to be safe")
- People buying 2 x Advance tickets costing more than the SVR (or more commonly costing pennies less, because this is what the online booking engines default to. XC is the worst offender for pushing such Advance singles, but others do it too)
- Someone buying tickets for London-Reading when they hold a London-Didcot Season ("it's not valid to stop anywhere in between")
- People buying A-B-C tickets instead of a cheaper A-C because they don't realise you can break your journey
- People buying Off Peak tickets online in advance ("it's always cheaper, even for Off Peak tickets")
... All of which I have seen happen. (Of course, most of them wouldn't happen if people bought at ticket offices).

 

[Paul Kelly]

There should be a tool on the NRE website where someone already in possession of a ticket can enter its details to find out its validity, this would display valid routes

ATOC promised along these lines in a letter to Clive Feather over 13 years ago:

The NRG is being automated as part of a new Journey Information System due for implementation next year. This will provide speedier and more comprehensive train timetable, fares, ticket and routeing information, benefiting customers and ticket/enquiry office staff alike.

You will be pleased to hear that, as part of this automation process, the NRG is being scrutinised to discover and correct any anomalies. Once the Journey Information System is in operation, you will be able to obtain appropriate routeing information for any rail journey that you are planning.

It seems to me either they have been let down by their outsourced IT, or (as LexyBoy says) decided it would lead to people not buying more expensive tickets than they needed, if they knew the extent of validity of the tickets they held. Or maybe a combination of both.