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The Midnight Train...?

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InOban

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It might, strictly speaking, be a nonsense however it is a generally accepted convention that 12am is midnight and 12pm is noon. If you want to split hairs like that then the clock should really run from 0 to 11.
Is it? I would have thought the opposite.
 
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43066

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It might, strictly speaking, be a nonsense however it is a generally accepted convention that 12am is midnight and 12pm is noon. If you want to split hairs like that then the clock should really run from 0 to 11.

Agreed - perfectly sensible and clear to most people. Or of course midnight can be referred to as 0000 if using the 24 hour clock.
 

crosscity

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Duffy in her song 'Rock Ferry' has the line 'The midnight trains are boarding'. She is from Wales, so a UK example. Whether she knew where Rock Ferry was, I don't know.

Is it? I would have thought the opposite.
So would I. If 'am' is after midnight then 12am would be 12noon. Similarly if 'pm' means 'after noon' then 12pm would be 12midnight.
 
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AndrewE

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So would I. If 'am' is after midnight then 12am would be 12noon. Similarly if 'pm' means 'after noon' then 12pm would be 12midnight.
but it is not. Am is ante meridian - before noon. pm is post noon. No other meaning exists - except in the minds of people who can't look it up. Hence my gripe about it being used for either of the times of 12.00 which it cannot be by definition, unless you accept that 12am and 12pm both mean midnight.
 

SargeNpton

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Many systems can’t handle 00:00:00 so our planning systems prevents it going downstream. Note this is a issue with legacy systems and not TPS as is often misinformed. I believe there are WTT times at 23:59:30 and possibly some at 00:00:30 but personally I avoid the latter if I spot it.
On National Rail, no train has an arrival, departure or passing time of 00:00. In the CIF output file that goes to all downstream operating and retail systems, there are columns for working times and columns for advertised times - in the latter columns the absence of an advertised time is represented by 00:00.

So it's not just that legacy systems can't handle midnight but also that 00:00 has another meaning.
 

najaB

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So would I. If 'am' is after midnight then 12am would be 12noon. Similarly if 'pm' means 'after noon' then 12pm would be 12midnight.
Well, there's your mistake: am doesn't mean "after midnight", it means "ante meridiem" (before mid day), and pm means "post meridiem" (after mid day).

 

InOban

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Essentially 12am and pm should under no circumstances ever be used.
 

miami

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am and pm are anachronisms from a simpler time and shouldn't be used - especially in transport terms.

I believe those that use the term (mainly Americans)

12:00 AM -- 00:00
12:01 AM -- 00:01
12:59 AM -- 00:59
1:00 AM -- 01:00
11:59 AM -- 11:59
12:00 PM -- 12:00
12:01 PM -- 12:01
12:59 PM -- 12:59
1:00 PM -- 13:00
1:01 PM -- 13:01
11:59 PM -- 23:59

The last time I saw a Manchester Metrolink working timetable it referred to post-midnight times as 24.xx, 25.xx, and 26.xx.

According to the non-covid 2020 working timeline, the first tram of the day leaves the trafford depot heading for Airport at 02:54, entering service at 03:00:00 at Firswood. At 02:56:30 another tram heads north to Deansgate.

The final tram of the day is on the Rochdale line there's a 24:37 from Rochdale which gets to Oldham Central at 25:01 and Monsall at 25:20, arriving at the depot at 25:26:00

Many trams are timed for 24:00:00, including the final tram from Picadilly to Altrincham which is times for 24:00:00 at Old Trafford.

Table available
 
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crosscity

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Well, there's your mistake: am doesn't mean "after midnight", it means "ante meridiem" (before mid day), and pm means "post meridiem" (after mid day).

Fair enough. My Latin is non-existent. Doesn't this mean 12am=midnight, as does 12pm? I must say that I was taught to always use '12-noon' and '12-midnight' untill I settled on using the 24-hour clock with 00:00 being midnight and the start of the new day.
 

Lloyds siding

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Duffy in her song 'Rock Ferry' has the line 'The midnight trains are boarding'. She is from Wales, so a UK example. Whether she knew where Rock Ferry was, I don't know.


So would I. If 'am' is after midnight then 12am would be 12noon. Similarly if 'pm' means 'after noon' then 12pm would be 12midnight.
Duffy is right though. There's a 00.01 train from Rock Ferry to Chester...
 

Taunton

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The last time I saw a Manchester Metrolink working timetable it referred to post-midnight times as 24.xx, 25.xx, and 26.xx.
This is common elsewhere in internal working timetables (ie for those who understand the convention), on systems which have a definite break between each day's operations. For those who devise these with straightforward computer products like Excel spreadsheets, it allows end of day items to be sorted, and the time differences between them calculated, correctly. For a 24-hour running system you need a more sophisticated approach.

Regarding the US term "midnight train", this is just an a longstanding generic for a last, or overnight, train there. It doesn't specifically refer to a departure time. The general public there nowadays seems to have moved on to the expression "the red eye", initially from overnight plane flights, which I actually find a bit unpleasant.
 

Ken H

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Fair enough. My Latin is non-existent. Doesn't this mean 12am=midnight, as does 12pm? I must say that I was taught to always use '12-noon' and '12-midnight' untill I settled on using the 24-hour clock with 00:00 being midnight and the start of the new day.
There is no 12 am or 12 pm. They are 12 noon or 12 midnight. You can't be before or after meridian when you are at meridian. (Meridian =noon)

So at lunchtime it goes
11:59 am
12:00 noon
12:01 pm

In fact 12:00:01 is pm
 

AndyW33

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Duffy in her song 'Rock Ferry' has the line 'The midnight trains are boarding'. She is from Wales, so a UK example. Whether she knew where Rock Ferry was, I don't know.


So would I. If 'am' is after midnight then 12am would be 12noon. Similarly if 'pm' means 'after noon' then 12pm would be 12midnight.
Wikipedia says she attended the University of Chester, so she almost certainly does know where Rock Ferry is, and may well have been there around midnight returning from an evening out on Merseyside.
 
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Wikipedia says she attended the University of Chester, so she almost certainly does know where Rock Ferry is, and may well have been there around midnight returning from an evening out on Merseyside.

I think you're showing your age - that's going out time these days.
 

robbob700

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There is no 12 am or 12 pm. They are 12 noon or 12 midnight. You can't be before or after meridian when you are at meridian. (Meridian =noon)

So at lunchtime it goes
11:59 am
12:00 noon
12:01 pm

In fact 12:00:01 is pm
But mathematically the interval where the time is exactly 12:00 noon is infinitesimally small. A trillionth of a second later, it is undeniably pm. This is why 12 noon is considered to be 12pm and 12 midnight is considered to be 12am
 

najaB

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I thought modern theory quantised time in the order of 10^-44 seconds.
Correct. The Planck time is defined as 5.39 × 10^44 seconds and is the shortest theoretically measurable time interval. However it's several orders of magnitude shorter than the shortest practically measurable time interval.
 
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79 posts so far, and we are nearing some conclusion about when midnight is!

Dunno how Einstein worked out all his theories without such help...? :D
 

zwk500

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79 posts so far, and we are nearing some conclusion about when midnight is!

Dunno how Einstein worked out all his theories without such help...? :D
to be fair the debate is not about when midnight is, but more how to refer to that moment!
 

Donny_m

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Never been more entertained by the most mundane of debates. Definitely going to be pedantic whenever someone says 12am / pm in future.
 

ASharpe

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What happens if an electron or muon neutrino travels from the Sun at relativistic speeds towards the meridian at Greenwich at noon (local Greenwich reference frame and the Sun actually about 8 minutes ahead of where we see it)?

How would the neutrino know if it arrived am or pm?
 

Sean Emmett

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Spending most of the night on Widnes* station didn't do Paul Simon any harm.

* Widnes is where the plaque has been placed. In reality, even Paul Simon isn't sure which station he was on.
Or indeed The Jam: Down In The Tube Station At Midnight.
 

miklcct

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Some Bakerloo Line trains have a public departure / arrival time of 00:00 when running on National Rail track as found on TfL website, including two departing North Wembley at 00:00 in both directions, and one departing 00:00 Queens Park to Elephant & Castle. However, BR Times shows these train as departing at 00:01 instead, and in case of North Wembley, all times after midnight are shown as 1 minute after TfL website.

Can anyone on these trains confirm if they depart North Wembley at 00:00 or 00:01, and what is shown on the platform?
 

Lloyds siding

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In a nutshell then: if using the 24 hour clock: 00.00 and 24.00 are 'correct' times for midnight, 12.00 is midday (noon0
12am and 12pm are meaningless and should never be used, say noon and midnight and then there's no doubt.
 

Bovverboy

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In a nutshell then: if using the 24 hour clock: 00.00 and 24.00 are 'correct' times for midnight, 12.00 is midday (noon0
12am and 12pm are meaningless and should never be used, say noon and midnight and then there's no doubt.
The perfect nutshell.
 

Statto

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I've noticed Bakerloo line trains normally take 2 minutes Wembley Central to North Wembley, 2J02 however is Wembley Central 23.58, North Wembley 00.01
 
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