The "morality" of not sharing loophole tickets publicly

[akm]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #14 originally in this thread.

I know exactly why the Ash Vale restriction has been put in but obviously won't explain more

Honestly, this kind of thing is my least favourite aspect of this forum. Not picking on anyone; this is merely the latest in a loooong line of examples...

 

[embers25]

Honestly, this kind of thing is my least favourite aspect of this forum. Not picking on anyone; this is merely the latest in a loooong line of examples...

Why would I reveal a loophole I'm using as it would be closed as this has. I wrote my msg as someone else said they couldn't see the need for the change.

 

[Hadders]

Honestly, this kind of thing is my least favourite aspect of this forum. Not picking on anyone; this is merely the latest in a loooong line of examples...

Train Company Pricing Managers watch this forum like hawks and there is a history of ‘loophole’ tickets or pricing anomalies being closed down once they have been exposed.

The best way to find out about good value fares is to attend a forum meal or fares workshop, as these things are frequently discussed at them.

 

[Jason12]

Honestly, this kind of thing is my least favourite aspect of this forum. Not picking on anyone; this is merely the latest in a loooong line of examples...

Get used to it. If you are not part of the inner circle who meet and share PMs, information about routeing anomalies, loopholes, so-called "cheap tickets", etc. will be closed to you.

 

[RJ]

Get used to it. If you are not part of the inner circle who meet and share PMs, information about routeing anomalies, loopholes, so-called "cheap tickets", etc. will be closed to you.

You don’t need to be part of any inner circle. I for one find a whole heap of them by myself and I’m not any kind of expert on fares.

The cryptic clues dropped by other members are quiet useful in my opinion - one only has to know the opportunity exists to do a minimal bit of work to uncover it.

That said, posting in public benefits nobody - the powers that be will shut down publicised anomalies rapidly. Stuff I’ve found but never used has remained at erroneous prices for years, through many fares changes and will probably continue to do so unless they are advertised.

 

[Jason12]

That said, posting in public benefits nobody - the powers that be will shut down publicised anomalies rapidly.

Perhaps so, but let's be clear, the powers that be can easily analyse their own routing guide, so will be well aware of the anomalies therein. Nevertheless, they seem quite happy with a situation where the anomalies remain and a bunch of cheap fares are available to a select group of those in the know. The shutters only come down when those anomalies are made public.

One set of fares for us geeks and gurus, more expensive ones for the rest of you, isn't an approach I support.

If all the anomalies were made public, there would have to be some serious rejigging of permitted routes and fares - with winners and losers. But at least everybody would then be in the same boat and have access to the same set of fares for the journeys they make.

 

[Watershed]

Perhaps so, but let's be clear, the powers that be can easily analyse their own routing guide, so will be well aware of the anomalies therein.

It would be complex, but hardly impossible, to write a piece of software that found anomalous fares. But clearly the rail industry has decided not to do so and so it's wrong to say that they are aware of what the anomalies are. They know that anomalies exist, but they don't know what they are.

If all the anomalies were made public, there would have to be some serious rejigging of permitted routes and fares - with winners and losers. But at least everybody would then be in the same boat and have access to the same set of fares for the journeys they make.

We all know perfectly well there wouldn't be any winners. It would simply lead to yet more restrictions and increases in price.

Even where tickets have historically always been valid a particular way - if they represent an anomaly, the industry doesn't shy away from removing said validity or jacking up prices.

I hardly think it's morally wrong that, if you are sufficiently motivated to find a cheaper fare, you can occasionally find one by putting some effort into it.

 

[Jason12]

It would be complex, but hardly impossible, to write a piece of software that found anomalous fares. But clearly the rail industry has decided not to do so and so it's wrong to say that they are aware of what the anomalies are. They know that anomalies exist, but they don't know what they are.

It's not at all complex. I have access to the DTD and with some quite simple code have built a list of fares from A to B, which are valid from X to Y. Where the A to B fare is less than X to Y, that's an anomaly. It's a brute force search and it takes hours on my 15 yr old laptop, but it reveals a list of anomalies a mile long.

Perhaps the industry has decided that they are happy with anomalies, as long as they are not widely known, so they haven't made a list. But it would be pretty straightforward to have that list, if they chose to.

We all know perfectly well there wouldn't be any winners. It would simply lead to yet more restrictions and increases in price.

There would certainly be losers. Those "in the know" who currently get to exploit the anomalies would be "levelled-up" to pay the same as everyone else from A to B. Whether that levelling up would increase revenue enough to allow an overall reduction in fares to create winners is difficult to gauge. I suspect the exploitation of loopholes makes up such a small percentage of potential lost revenue, that you may be right and there'd be no winners.

Even where tickets have historically always been valid a particular way - if they represent an anomaly, the industry doesn't shy away from removing said validity or jacking up prices.

I agree that where fares were previously valid by a "reasonable" route, anomalies existed and could be exploited. I also agree that the current arrangements of permitted routes has led to many "reasonable" routes not being available or being priced "Via Z" at a higher fare. Ironically, though, many of the anomalies on my list have been created as a direct consequence of that "Via Z" routeing.

I hardly think it's morally wrong that, if you are sufficiently motivated to find a cheaper fare, you can occasionally find one by putting some effort into it.

Indeed, it's not morally wrong. Customers should always be encouraged to "shop around" and look for the best deals. Those who put the time and effort in can find the best bargains. Perhaps if there was a list of all the fares from A to B, some might put the effort in to look for the cheapest/best value, whereas others would just pay the headline price. But the "shop around" argument can only apply when that list of fares from A to B is made available. To everyone.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Could it be that the industry has ‘bigger fish to fry’ than, let’s face it a few enthusiasts trying for cheap travel?

 

[Jason12]

Could it be that the industry has ‘bigger fish to fry’ than, let’s face it a few enthusiasts trying for cheap travel?

I'm sure that's the case. I'm not expecting a bonfire of the anomalies any time soon. Just stating that the closed shop of one fare for us, another for the rest of you is not an approach I support.

 

[Kite159]

The operators won't care as much, especially as any ticket revenue goes straight to the DFT as per the post Covid management contracts. Why would they waste time on trying to find the loophole tickets when it won't benefit them?

 

[m00036]

In some cases it's in their interests to keep them. Some people wouldn't travel without the cheaper splitting option being available, whilst most employers will expense the full fare, so there is an element of price discrimination. If an anomaly becomes well known then that price discrimination is lost, which could plausibly reduce revenue in some instances.

On the whole, I suspect the railway loses out, but not by as much as you would initially think.

 

[Hadders]

I'm sure that's the case. I'm not expecting a bonfire of the anomalies any time soon. Just stating that the closed shop of one fare for us, another for the rest of you is not an approach I support.

There will always be anomalies in any fares structure. Are you saying that people shouldn't be allowed to research how the fares structuire works and discover anomalies?

Does this just apply to the railway? Should people be able to research and find out when Easyjet fares are at their cheapest? How to obtain a more favourable broadband price etc etc.

 

[Jason12]

There will always be anomalies in any fares structure. Are you saying that people shouldn't be allowed to research how the fares structuire works and discover anomalies?

Does this just apply to the railway? Should people be able to research and find out when Easyjet fares are at their cheapest? How to obtain a more favourable broadband price etc etc.

I'm all for people being allowed to research all of those things. It's the "shopping around" argument, as mentioned above.

But to shop around, you need to have all the prices. Keeping some prices a closed secret, as we are asked to do on this forum, does not allow others to use them and shop around for themselves.

 

[Hadders]

I'm all for people being allowed to research all of those things. It's the "shopping around" argument, as mentioned above.

But to shop around, you need to have all the prices. Keeping some prices a closed secret, as we are asked to do on this forum, does not allow others to use them and shop around for themselves.

There are no secret fares.

Every fare is available to everyone either through Avantix Traveller or through BRFares. The Routeing Guide is available to everyone and details of the routes you may take are part of the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

It’s up to you how much or little time you out into research and piecing it all together. When I joined the forum in 2011 I had no idea about fares, since then I’ve spent thousands of hours researching what’s available. This has given me a really good understanding of what sort of fares I can use and when. There’s absolutely nothing stopping anyone from doing anything I’ve done.

I’d actually argue that while rail fares are complex (and given the size of the network they always will be), there is far more transparency about rail fares than almost any other industry:

You’ll be hard pressed to find out how much a bus fare is - I’m not aware of anywhere that they’re published.

Airline flights - again, there is little or no transparency.

Hotel rooms - again, no transparency.

I could go on….

There is no rule on the forum that says that certain fares must be kept secret. The problem is historically when good value fares have been publicised on the forum they tend to get ‘fixed’ very quickly. This defeats the object of publicising them in the first place.

We do run an extensive range of events like meals, walks and fares workshops across the country where these sort of things tend to get discussed. There is no closed shop about these events whatsoever, they are open to anyone and I’d encourage you to come along to an event if you’re interested in learning more.

 

[startingaparty]

Please can someone explain what a loophole is without giving any locations away? Is it like a fare that’s been accidentally priced for say £5 when it should be more like £30? Or are they less extreme than that?

 

[yorkie]

Get used to it. If you are not part of the inner circle who meet and share PMs, information about routeing anomalies, loopholes, so-called "cheap tickets", etc. will be closed to you.

These events are open to everyone; the only requirements I'd have is that they are respectful, polite and appreciative and don't have a conflict of interest and if that's satisfied I will be happy to explain anything anyone wants me to.

It's absolutely not a closed circle at all.

However what I am not going to do is share details of the few remaining half-decent fares that still exist only for those fares to be withdrawn/changed so that they are no longer usable; who can blame me for that?

Please can someone explain what a loophole is without giving any locations away? Is it like a fare that’s been accidentally priced for say £5 when it should be more like £30? Or are they less extreme than that?

A good example is Brighton to Bournemouth route Not Via London; this is cheaper than Clapham Jn to Bournemouth (or was, last time I checked).

As I alluded to in the relevant thread, there was an issue with the Tilbury/Gravesend tickets which allowed travel via High Speed 1; there were disputes posted about that many years ago.

The craziest example is absolutely brilliant and I'll tag @fishquinn in as he may want to tell you all about it (a ticket between two stations in the Midlands that allowed travel via Oxford/Reading/Swindon/Southampton/Bristol/Birmingham)

I'm all for people being allowed to research all of those things. It's the "shopping around" argument, as mentioned above.

But to shop around, you need to have all the prices. Keeping some prices a closed secret, as we are asked to do on this forum, does not allow others to use them and shop around for themselves.

All the prices are at www.brfares.com ; no prices are secret and everything can be worked out by anyone. It's far more open than bus fares / plane fares.

 

[Tom]

Felt a need to pick up on these two...

You’ll be hard pressed to find out how much a bus fare is - I’m not aware of anywhere that they’re published.

https://www.bus-data.dft.gov.uk/ is slowly building up an open data service that contains bus fares for all operators. It's becoming part of the operating licence requirements.

Airline flights - again, there is little or no transparency.

This one is more true but depends on the airline. There are services such as Expertflyer or KVS Tool that can access the full published fare set of all airlines in the world. It doesn't include so much the Ryanair and Easyjets, but does include the carriers that integrate with GDS (which is basically everyone except the direct channel only low costs and charter ops). You can have far more fun exploiting the fares and routing rules to get some extremely good deals. There is a thread on a frequent flyer forum that is literally dedicated to tricking these publicly available sources.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Please can someone explain what a loophole is without giving any locations away? Is it like a fare that’s been accidentally priced for say £5 when it should be more like £30? Or are they less extreme than that?

It is normally situations where a cheaper ticket is valid to make a more expensive journey due to e.g. a quirk of the Routeing Guide.

 

[startingaparty]

It is normally situations where a cheaper ticket is valid to make a more expensive journey due to e.g. a quirk of the Routeing Guide.

Thank you. Do they involve stopping or starting short? Or do they involve split tickets but going a more roundabout way than what journey planners suggest?

Edit: Also, is it just a matter of playing around with the “via” function on journey planners?

 

[yorkie]

The operators won't care as much, especially as any ticket revenue goes straight to the DFT as per the post Covid management contracts. Why would they waste time on trying to find the loophole tickets when it won't benefit them?

This is absolutely true.. until they get widely publicised; some TOCs will then try to make changes. In some many - perhaps most - cases they are able to, but not always. The Brighton to London example is one that cannot be changed without changing fares regulation so I am happy to post it.

Those who seek to introduce fares reform without a huge increase in subsidy want to put the price of such tickets up considerably; I oppose their plans rigorously and I hope many other people voice their opposition whenever such plans are made.

Thank you. Do they involve stopping or starting short?

Depends on whether you just want a long bash to enjoy the ride or if you want to go somewhere for a lower fare.

Or do they involve split tickets but going a more roundabout way than what journey planners suggest?

I advise against doing anything that is not supported by journey planners; this could be problematic.

Edit: Also, is it just a matter of playing around with the “via” function on journey planners?

Sometimes a bug occurs which allows almost any via point; it happened on Trainline earlier this year and it also happened on the Atos WebTIS sites to a massive extent in 2012.

 

[Jason12]

These events are open to everyone; the only requirements I'd have is that they are respectful, polite and appreciative and don't have a conflict of interest and if that's satisfied I will be happy to explain anything anyone wants me to.

It's absolutely not a closed circle at all.

That's fine, but you do keep the information about cheap fares and loopholes within that circle.

 

[yorkie]

That's fine, but you do keep the information about cheap fares and loopholes within that circle.

That isn't true.

I work very hard to give as many people access to 'cheap fares' as possible (without divulging what I do) and spend many hours on trying to achieve this aim.

Now if you are accusing me of not publicly divulging details of a fare which enables travel between two points for a fraction of the full fare, on the basis that if I did so it would immediately be withdrawn, I am guilty as charged. Judge me however you like, but if I did that, the post would be worthless within - potentially - a matter of days. Who benefits from that?

I run fares workshops for free; I don't charge anyone for my time. All I claim is reasonable expenses, that's it. I will never run them for money (unless an employer paid me to do it; that would be different; certainly the ones advertised on the forum will always be free).

Perhaps so, but let's be clear, the powers that be can easily analyse their own routing guide, so will be well aware of the anomalies therein. Nevertheless, they seem quite happy with a situation where the anomalies remain and a bunch of cheap fares are available to a select group of those in the know.

Is that the case? I am not convinced. Maybe you have some inside information that I am not privvy to?

The shutters only come down when those anomalies are made public.

Yes but I think that's because the 'powers that be' are unaware of them until that point. If you have some inside information to suggest that isn't the case, then I'll bow to your knowledge and simply express my surprise!

One set of fares for us geeks and gurus, more expensive ones for the rest of you, isn't an approach I support.

How would you seek to prevent that, not just with rail fares, but with plane fares too? And you wait til you see some of the anomalies on the European continent, where the same journey can be priced differently simply based on which country's website you buy it from. Split ticketing is taken to a whole new level in Switzerland if you want Zonal fares at your origin and destination and a point to point inbetween.

If all the anomalies were made public, there would have to be some serious rejigging of permitted routes and fares - with winners and losers. But at least everybody would then be in the same boat and have access to the same set of fares for the journeys they make.

Feel free to post your proposals on how this could be achieved.

 

[Hadders]

Please can someone explain what a loophole is without giving any locations away? Is it like a fare that’s been accidentally priced for say £5 when it should be more like £30? Or are they less extreme than that?

It's not normally about pricing anomalies, these are normally sorted out rather swiftly. It's more to do with ticket routeing, timing restrictions, operator restrictions etc.

Thank you. Do they involve stopping or starting short? Or do they involve split tickets but going a more roundabout way than what journey planners suggest?

Edit: Also, is it just a matter of playing around with the “via” function on journey planners?

It's often all of those.

Yesterday I made a journey from my local station to a station in North London. There is a cheaper ticket from a station that is geographically closer to the destination, but further away by rail, that is specifically valid via my local station. I stumbled across this fare a few years ago, completely by accident. I believe it's cheaper for historical reasons, there used to be a direct rail line between the two places but it was closed decades ago and no-one has bothered to amend the fares! A condition of the closure might have been that the fares had to be kept the same but I'm not going to expose this fare on a public forum as I guarantee it'd be corrected quick sharp, any possible historical argeement to keep fares at a certain level would not hold water given the time that's elapsed. In absolute monetary terms the saving's not huge but as a percentage it's 30%

 

[yorkie]

....A condition of the closure might have been that the fares had to be kept the same but I'm not going to expose this fare on a public forum as I guarantee it'd be corrected quick sharp, any possible historical argeement to keep fares at a certain level would not hold water given the time that's elapsed....

Indeed; promises made long ago may simply be forgotten now.

Even fares regulation - supposedly sacrosanct - has been breached by several TOCs on numerous occasions and only put right when someone spotted it and complained.

And who can forget the EMR fiasco of making LNER remove Newark to London via Nottingham as a permitted route, in order to allow EMR to increase fares? LNER were happy to oblige in a case that looked like collusion to me, even if it technically wasn't (I am not convinced it wasn't but I don't want to make a direct accusation)

 

[Jason12]

That isn't true.

I work very hard to give as many people access to 'cheap fares' as possible (without divulging what I do) and spend many hours on trying to achieve this aim.

Now if you are accusing me of not publicly divulging details of a fare which enables travel between two points for a fraction of the full fare, on the basis that if I did so it would immediately be withdrawn, I am guilty as charged. Judge me however you like, but if I did that, the post would be worthless within - potentially - a matter of days. Who benefits from that?

I'm just pointing out the tacit agreement you are a party to. Keep the loophole fare secret and you and your group can continue to save on your rail travel. But if you make it public so that everyone else can do the same, they take away your toys.

It's an agreement which works for both parties, those keeping the knowledge to themselves gain financially. The train companies (formerly, now DfT/Treasury) wear the small revenue hit but avoid the huge losses were everyone to know the loopholes.

But it does mean there's one set of fares for those party to the agreement not to disclose them, another set of fares for those outside the circle.

 

[Hadders]

And who can forget the EMR fiasco of making LNER remove Newark to London via Nottingham as a permitted route, in order to allow EMR to increase fares? LNER were happy to oblige in a case that looked like collusion to me, even if it technically wasn't (I am not convinced it wasn't but I don't want to make a direct accusation)

London to Sheffield via Birmingham and London to Liverpool via Manchester are other examples of historical validity being removed after the routeings were widely publicised on the forum...

 

[AlterEgo]

Could it be that the industry has ‘bigger fish to fry’ than, let’s face it a few enthusiasts trying for cheap travel?

Yes. If one gets outed verbatim of course it gets closed, but no pricing manager worth their salt is going to go on whispers to spend an hour digging for an anomaly.

 

[miklcct]

Yes. If one gets outed verbatim of course it gets closed, but no pricing manager worth their salt is going to go on whispers to spend an hour digging for an anomaly.

I believe a pricing manager can write a computer program which automatically list out anomalies and close them accordingly, just like we writing a computer program to list out anomalies and take advantage of them.

 

[yorkie]

I'm just pointing out the tacit agreement you are a party to. Keep the loophole fare secret and you and your group can continue to save on your rail travel.

As I've said before, there is no closed group and anyone can join a fares workshop or other event.

But if you make it public so that everyone else can do the same, they take away your toys.

Are we here to have a sensible debate or not?

It's an agreement which works for both parties, those keeping the knowledge to themselves gain financially. The train companies (formerly, now DfT/Treasury) wear the small revenue hit but avoid the huge losses were everyone to know the loopholes.

Do you have any evidence of this conspiracy theory?

But it does mean there's one set of fares for those party to the agreement not to disclose them, another set of fares for those outside the circle.

This really isn't true at all.

If it was the case that there is an inner circle of people who are in cahoots with train companies, surely you would have some evidence of this? Just saying it doesn't make it true; it's just your theory. You are entitled to that theory but where is the evidence?

Also, if it was such a closed group, why do we run events like fares workshop where anyone can sign up and be given the information to find these fares?