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The "morality" of not sharing loophole tickets publicly

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tomuk

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That would be the tail wagging the dog. Why should inability to code something reduce availability?
The routeing guide and associated ticketing system is a complete kludge. The current version being a machine readable 'encoded' version of a set of rules and maps going back to when? The Railway Clearing House days in the 19th Century? With various bodges through TOC\Route specific fares, various 'hidden' ticket restrictions to get it to 'work' the way the industry want it to .

How many of the general public on the 'Clapham Omnibus' consult the Routeing Guide? Probably close to zero. How many staff, guards and gate line refer to it? Probably near zero. It is a completely humourless version of Mornington Crescent or Numberwang.

Posters on these forums often complain about people being overcharged, or given the wrong advise but is it any wonder with such a labyrinthine system. 100m routes from Falkirk to Ramsgate. Good Heavens.
 
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furlong

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I would not say the output from current routeing guide is complex. Using the few basic rules and the relatively small amount of data contained in a zip file, the set of permitted routes can be determined for any priced fare (route code) between any station pair, A and B.

If only that were true! Are you a lawyer? Given all the unresolved ambiguities, how do you know that the output matches that which a court would uphold?

Don't forgot to add "In each direction separately" to the end of that sentence, as permitted routes from A to B are not necessarily the same as permitted routes from B to A.

You could only do what you said if you first made lots of decisions about how you prefer to resolve the various types of ambiguities in the guide. Different interpretations may give you different sets of permitted routes for a given fare at a given time (because some permitted routes have always depended on the timetable, an interpretation reportedly confirmed by the Rail Regulator in the early days). Even industry websites don't agree on a uniform interpretation and most seem to add interpretive elements that do not exist in the version that actually forms part of a passenger's contract.
 

Jason12

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If only that were true! Are you a lawyer? Given all the unresolved ambiguities, how do you know that the output matches that which a court would uphold?

I'm not a lawyer, I'm simply explaining that whatever interpretation of the ambiguities a court may adopt, with the current structure of the routeing guide, the process of searching for the cheapest fare is not complex. It's straight forward, though very inefficient and too time consuming to be of any practical use.
 

tspaul26

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And any ambiguity will (in general terms) be resolved in the passenger’s favour.

The system is what it is. If some people have the wherewithal to test the limits of that system then so be it. Good luck to them.

This is not in my view the ditch to die in given that the industry will routinely fail to comply with its clear legal obligations. Routeing Guide anomalies are in that regard small fry.

In response to the argument that having a secretive ticketing cabal in this forum is unfair, I say this: even if that’s true, life isn’t fair. I have no sympathy whatsoever with the Jasons of the world on this particular matter.
 

yorkie

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The routeing guide and associated ticketing system is a complete kludge. The current version being a machine readable 'encoded' version of a set of rules and maps going back to when? The Railway Clearing House days in the 19th Century? With various bodges through TOC\Route specific fares, various 'hidden' ticket restrictions to get it to 'work' the way the industry want it to .
Fares regulation has often prevented train companies increasing fares as much as they wanted to. It's not foolproof by any means, and sometimes TOCs are caught disregarding the rules, but it's better than nothing.

Any new system would need to have appropriate safeguards in place; if anyone has any ideas on how such a system could be constructed, I'd be interested to hear them.

How many of the general public on the 'Clapham Omnibus' consult the Routeing Guide? Probably close to zero. How many staff, guards and gate line refer to it? Probably near zero. It is a completely humourless version of Mornington Crescent or Numberwang.
It's no different in concept to the rules that underpin journey planners in many other countries; the key differences are that here in Great Britain the average person could see the methodology, if they want to.

Posters on these forums often complain about people being overcharged, or given the wrong advise but is it any wonder with such a labyrinthine system.
Without knowing exactly what examples you are citing, it's difficult to comment on this. But what I will say is that generally speaking the average person can simply state where they are travelling from, and to, and be sold the appropriate fare. There are a few exceptions but they are much more likely down to restriction encoding rather than routeing matters, and that's arguably beyond the scope of this thread.

There is also a strong case to say that people should be offered combinations of tickets, but that's again beyond the scope of this thread and literally anyone can book on a website that will find the cheapest combination in the vast majority of cases.

100m routes from Falkirk to Ramsgate. Good Heavens.
Would you propose that the permitted routes are rationalised, for example we could only allow Falkirk - Edinburgh - Newcastle - Doncaster - York - Peterborough - London KGX/STP - Ebbsfleet - Ramsgate, with no deviations. Or we could allow a select few deviations to allow travel via Carlisle (with no deviations) and via the 'classic' lines (again no deviations)?

Some people would argue that allowing all reasonable routes between Falkirk and Ramsgate is an example of a system appearing as simple to a customer; you can buy such a ticket and take any reasonable route without having to purchase an excess fare (as is often the case on the European continent)

Others would argue that there should be no such fare as any such fare is inherently complex; instead passengers should construct an itinerary and then be sold a bespoke fare that is calculated by whatever means (such as mileage) and then be told that is what they must do. This could be seen as simple as is the same concept as a Ryanair fare, which is deemed by many people and indeed advertised by Ryanair as being "simple".

Get 10 people in a room and ask them for their opinion on this and you will probably get 10 different answers.

Suggested solutions are welcome but no-one has yet come up with a workable plan that is universally agreeable.

So, until then....

I'm not a lawyer, I'm simply explaining that whatever interpretation of the ambiguities a court may adopt, with the current structure of the routeing guide, the process of searching for the cheapest fare is not complex. It's straight forward, though very inefficient and too time consuming to be of any practical use.
You are entailed to this opinion but I am not sure I agree.

How would you define/measure "the cheapest fare" for a given journey?
 

m00036

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Now, I only studied economic theory to degree level so I am not as learned as you with dissertations and things, but I do not understand how revenue would fall after a revenue-neutral change! Would a fall in revenue not mean that the change was actually revenue-negative? So I think this argument against price simplification does not stand up well.
Quite right, this argument doesn’t hold up ; Though I would still say that even if you tried to reduce fares across the board even by a penny, the railway would lose more than it gains from correcting anomalies, both because knowledge of anomalies is low but also because some will switch mode of travel if those cheaper options are no longer offered.

Thanks for pointing out my mistake though, glad someone read it!
 

yorkie

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Problems with so-called "revenue neutral" schemes include:
  • market based pricing is king and anything that works on this basis is going to end up with fares for many 'lucrative' flows being high, no matter how you do it
  • there is no way to know if changes will be "revenue neutral"; it will be based on modelling/forecasting, which will use assumptions, such as assuming people will put up with higher fares
  • every time you save someone at the upper end some cash you need to make many people at the lower end pay more; for every individual £300 Anytime fare a business is only paying £150 for, that's (crudely) 150 people who may need to pay £3 rather than £2 (or whatever it is). Yes that is overly simplified, but you get the idea
  • Those fares that do reduce (such as on "premium" flows) may be on flows that are already at or near capacity
  • Those fares that do increase may be for journeys for which rail is already uncompetitive; this could make the journeys even less attractive (e.g. Sherburn to Whitby, or Gunnislake to Newquay).
  • The DfT, RDG or any other body involved cannot be trusted to ensure a fair deal for passengers
  • People who use websites - which literally anyone can use - which offer split ticketing would be paying more; these are the price conscious passengers who otherwise may not use the train. This is unlikely to be properly taken into account by forecasting. It has all sorts of disbenefits, from social outcomes to environmental ones.
  • People who are not interested in reducing their outgoings and pay whatever the through fare is, would be paying less than they would otherwise be wanting to pay, i.e. the rail industry is simply throwing away money they currently get for absolutely no benefit whatsoever.
Revenue neutral must be opposed at all costs.
 

furlong

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I'm simply explaining that whatever interpretation of the ambiguities a court may adopt, with the current structure of the routeing guide, the process of searching for the cheapest fare is not complex. It's straight forward, though very inefficient and too time consuming to be of any practical use.
But that is using hindsight. After decades of this system, we still don't know which interpretations are the right ones and the custodians of the system still refuse to make clear decisions that would remove the ambiguities and settle these matters, and instead of reforming rules that are already clear but which the industry doesn't like it seems to get away with openly ignoring them.

Here's an example related to your proposed algorithm. When looking for the shortest route, what is the distance to use for a journey component between Marylebone and Liverpool Street? Based on the original routeing guide my answer was zero - London was treated as a single point and only National Rail distances were counted. What is the answer today based only on the public documents that form part of a passenger's contract? What distance do industry systems use? Other distances also were supposed to be based upon the (rounded) distances published in the various timetable tables (a problem when one table got published without its distances!), yet industry systems used more precise distances from an alternative private data source. They tried to side-step some of these problems by adding a 3-mile tolerance, but did it in a way that merely shifted the problem to debates over whether that 3 mile criterion was or was not met precisely in any particular case.

Another one. The routeing guide is only updated on specific dates tied to the dates when fares change each year and no provision is provided for faster changes. So what is the legal status of all the changes published on intermediate dates and already used by industry systems before they can possibly have come into effect? What is the current legal status of changes that bypassed defined approval mechanisms?

You are absolutely right that the political intention was for this system to provide certainty, but completely predictably it fell way short. I believe that some years ago the industry did begin to develop a public system where people could look up all the routes for a journey, but this was quickly abandoned for obvious reasons once they began to see the output.

Anyway, I encourage you to read up on the complexities, and if you have the energy by all means lobby the powers that be to fix more of the problems.
 

Cdd89

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Therefore I believe the demographic of such season tickets is for businessmen who have a client base all over Hampshire and Surrey, and requiring frequent travel between clients.
I know it’s not how rail seasons work, but London has had zonal tickets for commuters since forever. Those in my office with z16 seasons could use it to roam all over London, but they don’t (nor do they use it on weekends).
 

miklcct

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I know it’s not how rail seasons work, but London has had zonal tickets for commuters since forever. Those in my office with z16 seasons could use it to roam all over London, but they don’t (nor do they use it on weekends).
So why don't they buy a point to point season ticket instead?
 

yorkie

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So why don't they buy a point to point season ticket instead?
As a general rule, point to point Seasons are not available for travel on London Underground

(Exceptions include inter-available routes and potentially some 'anomalies' or historical quirks)
 

miklcct

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As a general rule, point to point Seasons are not available for travel on London Underground

(Exceptions include inter-available routes and potentially some 'anomalies' or historical quirks)
I understand now - I'm thinking more about National Rail within London that there is a great value point-to-point season covering most of the lines in North London.
 

Watershed

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I understand now - I'm thinking more about National Rail within London that there is a great value point-to-point season covering most of the lines in North London.
Most people are not even aware that such season tickets exists. The public perception is very much that Oyster/contactless is the best/cheapest way to travel around London (some may even think it's the only way), even though this is not necessarily the case.
 

miklcct

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Most people are not even aware that such season tickets exists. The public perception is very much that Oyster/contactless is the best/cheapest way to travel around London (some may even think it's the only way), even though this is not necessarily the case.
So does the public generally unaware that, under the following circumstances, a paper ticket is likely to be cheaper?

1. Afternoon peak with Railcard
2. Break of journey
3. Return journey outside zone 6
4. Most journeys involving HS1
Etc.?

Also, does the public generally aware that it's possible to buy outboundary Travelcards, tickets with U-zone destinations, Travelcard extension tickets, etc?
 

Wolfie

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So does the public generally unaware that, under the following circumstances, a paper ticket is likely to be cheaper?

1. Afternoon peak with Railcard
2. Break of journey
3. Return journey outside zone 6
4. Most journeys involving HS1
Etc.?

Also, does the public generally aware that it's possible to buy outboundary Travelcards, tickets with U-zone destinations, Travelcard extension tickets, etc?
The answer to most of that is probably not.
 

miklcct

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The answer to most of that is probably not.
Unfortunately, unlike the Hong Kong counterpart, the use of Oyster and contactless is not as the cheapest way to travel once outside the zones (and under certain circumstances inside the zones) that Gatwick Express even recommends to buy a ticket if making a period return.

In Hong Kong, if a paper ticket is cheaper than using PAYG, it is considered a bug in the fare system which will be solved in subsequent fare adjustments, and the railway company has produced a complete table showing which journeys behave as such. Both adult fares and child fares on the heavy rail network, where fares are point-to-point, were completed fixed a few years ago. On the light rail network, where PAYG fare is determined by the number of stations travelled but paper fare is determined by the zones travelled (i.e. 2 different methodology), the bug needed many more years to solve by increasing more paper fare while freezing some scales on the PAYG fare, but eventually the adult fare was completely fixed as well, with just some child fares remain buggy.

If paper ticket is going to be abolished we should learn from Hong Kong, that if a paper ticket is cheaper than PAYG, it should be treated as a bug and fixed in subsequent fare adjustments.
 

Hadders

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So does the public generally unaware that, under the following circumstances, a paper ticket is likely to be cheaper?

1. Afternoon peak with Railcard
2. Break of journey
3. Return journey outside zone 6
4. Most journeys involving HS1
Etc.?

Also, does the public generally aware that it's possible to buy outboundary Travelcards, tickets with U-zone destinations, Travelcard extension tickets, etc?
I'd say:

1. Possibly not
2. No but pretty niche (despite what we like to think on here)
3. Probably (although problems do exist with people living in London thinking they can use contactless further from London than they actually can)
4. I'm not sure what you mean

Outboundary travelcards - absolutely yes - these are the mainstay of tickets from stations in the south east to London
U Zone destinations - reasonably niche - often confused with travelcards
Boundary zone tickets - no
 

Watershed

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So does the public generally unaware that, under the following circumstances, a paper ticket is likely to be cheaper?

1. Afternoon peak with Railcard
2. Break of journey
3. Return journey outside zone 6
4. Most journeys involving HS1
Etc.?

Also, does the public generally aware that it's possible to buy outboundary Travelcards, tickets with U-zone destinations, Travelcard extension tickets, etc?
The level of public understanding around fares is generally very low - even just the Anytime, Off-Peak and Advance structure is too complex for some to understand. London has a huge degree of additional complexity due to the fact that LU and NR ticketing has historically been separate and there is still only interavailability on certain routes, as well as the confusing and poorly defined concept of London Terminals.

Hence the propensity of many people to simply use Oyster/contactless because it's simple and avoids them having to look up anything.

I do not think that most people would be aware of the fact that Oyster/contactless can be more expensive than paper fares in certain circumstances. Most people living outside Zone 6 but in the southeast might have a basic awareness of the fact you can buy outboundary Travelcards, but that's likely to be about the limit of it. Some don't even realise that Travelcards include validity on buses and all NR services in the Zones.
 

miklcct

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4. I'm not sure what you mean
Most journeys involving travel between Stratford International and St Pancras with onward travel from St Pancras by National Rail are cheaper using paper tickets. The reason is that using PAYG, the HS1 is a separate system with no integrated fare with the rest of network, while a paper ticket can always be bought from Stratford International to all National Rail stations. Even if the destination is an Underground station, as long as the Underground station is a Maltese Cross interchange, it is cheaper to buy to a National Rail station further out compared to buying the corresponding U-zone ticket.

For example, a return journey from Stratford International to London Blackfriars, with the outward between 09:30 and 16:00, and return between 16:00 and 19:00, is charged £3.60 + £2.50 + £2.50 + £6.30 = £14.90, while the paper return fare is just £11.00.

If using a National Railcard / Gold Card, even a single (!) is cheaper using a Railcard-discounted paper ticket if travel is made from St Pancras to Stratford International between 16:00 - 19:00.
 

tomuk

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The answer to most of that is probably not.

The level of public understanding around fares is generally very low - even just the Anytime, Off-Peak and Advance structure is too complex for some to understand. London has a huge degree of additional complexity due to the fact that LU and NR ticketing has historically been separate and there is still only interavailability on certain routes, as well as the confusing and poorly defined concept of London Terminals.

Hence the propensity of many people to simply use Oyster/contactless because it's simple and avoids them having to look up anything.

I do not think that most people would be aware of the fact that Oyster/contactless can be more expensive than paper fares in certain circumstances. Most people living outside Zone 6 but in the southeast might have a basic awareness of the fact you can buy outboundary Travelcards, but that's likely to be about the limit of it. Some don't even realise that Travelcards include validity on buses and all NR services in the Zones.

Which is precisely my point made earlier about the routing guide and more widely the fare system. It is so complicated and byzantine that the public aren't even aware they are getting ripped off. The whole thing needs scrapping and starting again. Despite the protestations on here that the current system somehow protects them from the evil TOCs when using a Little Deeping to John O Groats Super Off Peak Return as a substitute for a 7 day travelcard on the Shepperton Branch millions of people would be better off.
 

Class800

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Reverting to the original premise of the thread my view is that it would be good if it were possible to be more open about good deals but it isn't possible due to the way the industry works. They would just shut down the offers. The issue is not anything on the forum but rather profit coming ahead of being a public service. In theory there could be a private sub forum for all members except those with industry connections but it would surely pose far too much burden on volunteer admins to check everyones conflicts of interest to ensure no one could pass information onto industry pricing managers. Forum meets are a good place to discuss fares although still be aware who is there on any given day.
 

yorkie

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Which is precisely my point made earlier about the routing guide and more widely the fare system. It is so complicated and byzantine that the public aren't even aware they are getting ripped off.
Can you elaborate, perhaps with an example where someone would be ripped off?

The whole thing needs scrapping and starting again. Despite the protestations on here that the current system somehow protects them from the evil TOCs when using a Little Deeping to John O Groats Super Off Peak Return as a substitute for a 7 day travelcard on the Shepperton Branch
Please feel free to create a new thread with your proposals and methodology.

millions of people would be better off.
Did you see what I wrote about how reducing the costs of some of the higher fares would result in a proportionally large increase for cheaper fares?

For every Manchester - London rip off 300 quid fare that is reduced to (say) 150 quid, that's potentially (say) 150 Merseyrail passengers all worse off by a quid; a 4 quid fare vs 3 quid could tip the balance between whether they go by train or drive.
 

Bletchleyite

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For every Manchester - London rip off 300 quid fare that is reduced to (say) 150 quid, that's potentially (say) 150 Merseyrail passengers all worse off by a quid; a 4 quid fare vs 3 quid could tip the balance between whether they go by train or drive.

That assumes that that £300 fare isn't suppressing demand from Manchester to London, which it almost certainly is when you see how quiet those trains are and how busy the M6 is.

You'd be right if they were full, but they're not. They're so quiet the early ones can pick up near enough a whole train of commuters at MKC.

If you sell two at £150 rather than one at £300 you've got the same income. In reality that's not quite what would happen, but it wouldn't be a case of just halving the income.
 

Watershed

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Which is precisely my point made earlier about the routing guide and more widely the fare system. It is so complicated and byzantine that the public aren't even aware they are getting ripped off. The whole thing needs scrapping and starting again. Despite the protestations on here that the current system somehow protects them from the evil TOCs when using a Little Deeping to John O Groats Super Off Peak Return as a substitute for a 7 day travelcard on the Shepperton Branch millions of people would be better off.
You are conflating different issues here though. The perceived complexity of the system doesn't have any direct connection with the presence of loophole fares. I was just talking about the fact that most of the public don't understand the fare structure.

A lot of that complexity could be scrapped by moving to a system of just having Anytime and Advance tickets - as is the case in many countries abroad. However, that would mean that you would have to reduce the cost of Anytime tickets, as it's plainly unfeasible to require Advance tickets for travel on high frequency corridors such as the Thameslink core, or indeed most places with 4+ tph.

In turn, that would mean a loss of revenue from the people currently prepared to pay for expensive Anytime tickets, and season ticket prices would have to fall. But you would presumably still increase the price for those who currently rely on Off-Peak tickets, and so lose a lot of the price-conscious traffic there. So it would be the worst of all words.

As you can see, it's very easy to say that the current system is complex - and that's quite accurate - but much harder to suggest how a better system would actually work, without costing the industry revenue and/or pricing people out of rail.
 

Bletchleyite

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As you can see, it's very easy to say that the current system is complex - and that's quite accurate - but much harder to suggest how a better system would actually work, without costing the industry revenue and/or pricing people out of rail.

It's definitely possible to simplify the existing system around the edges. CrossCountry for example use a standard "at or after 0930" for off peak tickets with Advances "smoothing" this effect and have for many years which proves this to be possible. It causes some anomalies of its own by making splits good value in some situations, but it is at least simple. Similarly single fare pricing, at least for long distance journeys, makes it easier for planners to show the best value fare, which hides a lot of the complexity away from the user.

There is no "perfect" answer. However improvements are definitely possible.
 

Paul Kelly

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I was just choosing a few random pairs of stations to crunch all the routes for, and I think the winner of that little contest was Falkirk to Ramsgate, with well over 100 million unique routes parped out by the routeing guide.
Have you tried Liverpool to Ramsgate? I seem to remember that had even more when I tried the same some years back.
 

JB_B

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.... 100m routes from Falkirk to Ramsgate. Good Heavens.

I haven't had a chance to check @Jason12 's calculation but it sounds plausible.


Does 100m sound like a large number ?

Is it too large? If so, which routes would you cut?

Do you think that under the old BR rule of thumb ( "any reasonable route" ) passengers would have had access to a smaller number of routes?
 
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