The North British Type 2s: Classes 21, 22 & 29

[Taunton]

I'm still not clear exactly the difference between this arrangement and that on locos in multiple working next to each other though.

The difference would be, I believe, that two locos in multiple would have the Blue Star control arrangements, while the loco at the other end of the Push-Pull was controlled over the RCH carriage jumpers. Someone will (hopefully) be along soon to describe the difference between what was possible on each.

I also don't understand why such a pointed difference was made about the Push-Pull Class 27s, numbering them in a separate series, when on the odd occasion when there was a Class 25 or 37 substitution for one, it seemed a normal unmodified loco was fine.

I've linked to an account I did of the Push-Pull operation in the 1970s before, but here it is :

(1) ScotRail Express in the 1980s | RailUK Forums (railforums.co.uk)

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I also don't understand why such a pointed difference was made about the Push-Pull Class 27s, numbering them in a separate series, when on the odd occasion when there was a Class 25 or 37 substitution for one, it seemed a normal unmodified loco was fine.

I understood when a 25 or 37 was provided a second man had to ride on the rear loco 'in case of fire'.
The 47/DBSO sets were controlled through the carriage lighting cables (is that the same as RCH?) whereas I understood the push pull 27s had the blue star control connected by additional cabling through the coaches (hence only the modified Mk2 stock could be used).
Happy to be proved wrong but that was my understanding.

 

[matchmaker]

The coaches were through wired - I assume Blue Star - and had fire detection for the rear loco and Clear Call driver - guard communication. The RCH cables weren't used for control of the rear loco.

 

[Taunton]

One wonders then, if it was a Blue Star installation, why a "fire watcher" was necessary with the loco at the other end, but not when they were run double headed.

 

[Strathclyder]

Although this was meant to be the last run, the Railway Observer reported that A4 60024 Kingfisher worked the 17:15 Aberdeen-Glasgow on 13th September 1966 and the following morning’s 08:25 back. Quite surprising to find Kingfisher on top link passenger workings ten days after its official withdrawal from service.

Bet that caused something of a stir at Buchanan St on the morning of the 14th!

Found this while searching for something else.

https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/45/221/ (taken by the late James Crawford, now part of the Ewan Crawford collection).

For those unable to access the link, it depicts a member of the later batch of 21s (D6138-57; so identified by the recess for the Manson tablet catcher equipment visible in the cabside bottom-left of the image, the inclusion of which required significant changes be made to the cab mouldings/toolings at NBL's expense) under construction at NBL's Hyde Park Works. Some idea of how tight a fit the MAN-NBL prime mover was in the 21 body can be gleamed from this image.

 

[Taunton]

The 47/DBSO sets were controlled through the carriage lighting cables (is that the same as RCH?)

Yes it is. Railway Clearing House (RCH), a company owned by all major railway companies. Best known for doing all the accounting for inter-company ticket division, even more for freight than passenger, they also did general technical standards, in this case the carriage lighting jumper connections, which were also used to multiplex the control commands when that form of early electronics came along by the late 1960s (although well after the RCH itself had ceased to exist).

 

[43096]

One wonders then, if it was a Blue Star installation, why a "fire watcher" was necessary with the loco at the other end, but not when they were run double headed.

Because the rules required an automatic fire extinguisher system if a loco was used remotely at the rear of the train. If the rear loco is not so equipped it has to be either shut down or have a rider (driver/secondman/TRI) on it to activate the fire system if needed. The same applies now, which is why only some Class 67s have been used on push-pull sets as not all locos have the automatic extinguishers - use of a non-modified 67 means the loco needs a minder when pushing.

I assume the risk with double-headed locos is considered much less as the driver is in the next vehicle and not 5/6/7/8/9 coaches away.

 

[hexagon789]

I visited Scotland in 1965 or 1966 and here were two A2s helping out the A4s on services north of Glasgow, 60530 Sayajario and 60532 Blue Peter; I don't recall seeing any A1s

On the same day as I saw both of the above, I travelled behind a class 29 from Glasgow Buchanan Street to Aberdeen by the old CR route through Bridge of Dun; that's the only time I was hauled by a class 29, and I can't remember ever being behind a 21

Class 22s were still having heavy overhauls at Swindon in 1967, and in the early summer of that year I travelled behind D600 between Plymouth and Penzance; it was spotless in blue, and had received split headcode boxes on either side of it's nose doors at some time since it had been built, Later the same day, I travelled behind a scruffy green one - I think it was D604 - between Truro and Plymouth. I don't know what class 22s were being used for at that time, but I was down in Devon and Cornwall for just over a week and my recollection is that whenever I saw them out and about during that time they were coupled in pairs

Power output vs the stiff gradients?

Requiring two of them.

The difference would be, I believe, that two locos in multiple would have the Blue Star control arrangements, while the loco at the other end of the Push-Pull was controlled over the RCH carriage jumpers. Someone will (hopefully) be along soon to describe the difference between what was possible on each.

I also don't understand why such a pointed difference was made about the Push-Pull Class 27s, numbering them in a separate series, when on the odd occasion when there was a Class 25 or 37 substitution for one, it seemed a normal unmodified loco was fine.

I've linked to an account I did of the Push-Pull operation in the 1970s before, but here it is :

(1) ScotRail Express in the 1980s | RailUK Forums (railforums.co.uk)

The 27s uses control air, the Mk2Zs had the required piping fitted hence only the modified coaches (a few 2As as well) could be used.

I understood when a 25 or 37 was provided a second man had to ride on the rear loco 'in case of fire'.

That was my understanding, it's mentioned in a few sources

The 47/DBSO sets were controlled through the carriage lighting cables (is that the same as RCH?) whereas I understood the push pull 27s had the blue star control connected by additional cabling through the coaches (hence only the modified Mk2 stock could be used).
Happy to be proved wrong but that was my understanding.

Cabling and piping on the Cl. 27 Mk2 sets. The Blue Star system required a control air connection for engine speed control as is my understanding.

The beauty of the Class 47/7 FDM system was any RCH jumper-ed coach could work with the 47/7s and DBSOs and still allow through push-pull control, Mk1s, pressure ventilated and air-con Mk2s and of course Mk3s all ran in the sets at various times, sometimes mixed.

 

[Taunton]

Class 22s were still having heavy overhauls at Swindon in 1967, and in the early summer of that year I travelled behind D600 between Plymouth and Penzance; it was spotless in blue, and had received split headcode boxes on either side of it's nose doors at some time since it had been built, Later the same day, I travelled behind a scruffy green one - I think it was D604 - between Truro and Plymouth.

Back to NBL products. This may have been the same well-turned out D6xx on main line passenger services in 1967 that I wrote about here not long ago as coming through Taunton on an express one summer afternoon :

Interesting rarities that made it into BR blue? | Page 2 | RailUK Forums (railforums.co.uk)

 

[randyrippley]

One wonders then, if it was a Blue Star installation, why a "fire watcher" was necessary with the loco at the other end, but not when they were run double headed.

Didn't it depend on which loco had its boiler in use? The "fireman" rode the loco with the lit boiler - the boiler being the major fire risk

 

[delt1c]

Didn't it depend on which loco had its boiler in use? The "fireman" rode the loco with the lit boiler - the boiler being the major fire risk

Although each push pull set had a 27/1 ( boiler fitted) and 27/2 ( ETH only), I can never remember the stock being steam heated. It must have happened sometime if the ETH failed at which point a 2nd man would have been required for the 27/1 to operate the boiler.

 

[D6130]

Although each push pull set had a 27/1 ( boiler fitted) and 27/2 ( ETH only), I can never remember the stock being steam heated. It must have happened sometime if the ETH failed at which point a 2nd man would have been required for the 27/1 to operate the boiler.

As we seem to be drifting into the equally-interesting topic of the class 27s, I've decided to start a new thread concerning that class. However, please feel free to continue this thread as well.

 

[43096]

The beauty of the Class 47/7 FDM system was any RCH jumper-ed coach could work with the 47/7s and DBSOs and still allow through push-pull control, Mk1s, pressure ventilated and air-con Mk2s and of course Mk3s all ran in the sets at various times, sometimes mixed.

Subject to the restriction that any Mark 1s and early Mark 2s had to be air braked and ETH fitted to run in the push-pull sets, of course.

 

[hexagon789]

Subject to the restriction that any Mark 1s and early Mark 2s had to be air braked and ETH fitted to run in the push-pull sets, of course.

I should've said any standard air-brake/electric-heat vehicle.

 

[Swanley 59]

I was watching some old railway videos on YouTube on a snowy Sunday afternoon in February, when I came across an interesting film of a Class 22 shunting tanks in the early 1960s. I may be mistaken, but I think the location was Coleford Junction in the Forest of Dean.

Alas, I've been unable to find the piece again. I beginning to think it may have been a false memory.

 

[Roger B]

I was watching some old railway videos on YouTube on a snowy Sunday afternoon in February, when I came across an interesting film of a Class 22 shunting tanks in the early 1960s. I may be mistaken, but I think the location was Coleford Junction in the Forest of Dean.

Alas, I've been unable to find the piece again. I beginning to think it may have been a false memory.

Yep, I've seen that too. Think it may have been involved in track lifting - memory a bit hazy!

 

[Swanley 59]

Yep, I've seen that too. Think it may have been involved in track lifting - memory a bit hazy!

Thanks, Roger. I was beginning to think it was a figment of my imagination!

 

[Strathclyder]

A few more images from RailScot of 21s/29s at work; the 21 pics from the Frank Spaven collection (now part of the David Spaven collection) and the 29 pics by Bill Jamieson.

Cullen Burn Viaduct - RAILSCOT

RailScot, a history of Railways with an emphasis on Scottish Railways. Photographs, maps, news, queries and more.

www.railscot.co.uk

Cullen Burn Viaduct - RAILSCOT

RailScot, a history of Railways with an emphasis on Scottish Railways. Photographs, maps, news, queries and more.

www.railscot.co.uk

Greenhill Upper Junction - RAILSCOT

RailScot, a history of Railways with an emphasis on Scottish Railways. Photographs, maps, news, queries and more.

www.railscot.co.uk

Greenhill Lower Junction - RAILSCOT

RailScot, a history of Railways with an emphasis on Scottish Railways. Photographs, maps, news, queries and more.

www.railscot.co.uk

The 21 pics are particularly evocative, given I've holidayed extensively in that part of the Moray coastal region.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Huh, that I didn't know either. Though, given @randyrippley's post above, not surprising given the outdated, worn out and just plain unsuitable machinery/tooling NBL was using. The end results were entirely and sadly predictable.

My father knew someone who worked at the BSA motorbike factory in the late 60's and said it was exactly the same, worn-out pre-war tooling/machinery. The directors preferred large dividends/bonuses and fancy perks to investment, (with an honour thrown-in). Such a different story to the German way of manufacturing and we can all see the outcome some 60+ years on.