The North British Type 2s: Classes 21, 22 & 29

[Cheshire Scot]

It's probably the Dundee A2s I'm thinking of for Edinburgh-Aberdeen then, these never seemed to be booked for A4s unlike the Glasgow trains.

An excellent source for details of the 'A4 era' is 'Memories of Steam from Glasgow to Aberdeen' by Michael S Walsh.
Edinburgh to Aberdeen went over from a mix of class 26 and steam to class 40 operation in December 1961.
The A4s were brought in initially for the Glasgow Aberdeen 3 hour schedules but also worked a number of other passenger services on the route, also the TPO and some freight.
Initially three A4s were allocated to Ferryhill, and two to St Rollox which soon after received 2 A3s whilst Ferryhill also received an A3 shortly after.
Ferryhill already had an allocation of A2s (as well as Dundee) which would presumably have worked the Edinburgh trains prior to the class 40s taking over - and no doubt continued to substitute from time to time, and in the following years the number and identity of the A4s in use fluctuated, with a total of 16 A4s being allocated to the route at different times over period from Spring '62 to late summer '66.
Substitutions by Black 5s, Standard 5s and V2s are noted as are the use of NBL classes 21 and 29 (sticking to the them of this tread!). Use of two Haymarket A1s and one appearance by a Doncaster A1 are also noted, so the full range of LNER pacifics performed on the route.

 

[D6130]

What were the causes of the multiple fires in the Scottish locos, as described above and elsewhere? The WR ones did not suffer from this.

Predominantly serious oil and fuel leaks from the poorly-constructed NBL/MAN engines. It was bad enough having oil and fuel spraying onto the hot engine crankcases, but even worse when these substances seeped through onto the generators and/or traction motors. Another problem was the electrical drive train....The GEC generators had not previously been used with such a high-revving engine and were just about at their limit of commutation at 1,500 rpm. This sometimes led to overheating of both the generators and the traction motors, provoking fires which were not connected with fuel and oil leaks.

 

[hexagon789]

An excellent source for details of the 'A4 era' is 'Memories of Steam from Glasgow to Aberdeen' by Michael S Walsh.
Edinburgh to Aberdeen went over from a mix of class 26 and steam to class 40 operation in December 1961.
The A4s were brought in initially for the Glasgow Aberdeen 3 hour schedules but also worked a number of other passenger services on the route, also the TPO and some freight.
Initially three A4s were allocated to Ferryhill, and two to St Rollox which soon after received 2 A3s whilst Ferryhill also received an A3 shortly after.
Ferryhill already had an allocation of A2s (as well as Dundee) which would presumably have worked the Edinburgh trains prior to the class 40s taking over - and no doubt continued to substitute from time to time, and in the following years the number and identity of the A4s in use fluctuated, with a total of 16 A4s being allocated to the route at different times over period from Spring '62 to late summer '66.
Substitutions by Black 5s, Standard 5s and V2s are noted as are the use of NBL classes 21 and 29 (sticking to the them of this tread!). Use of two Haymarket A1s and one appearance by a Doncaster A1 are also noted, so the full range of LNER pacifics performed on the route.

In full working condition, it would be interesting to see how 21/29 performance compared. Would a 21 have been able to run a Glasgow-Aberdeen 3 hour service to time consistently with up to 7 Mk1s?

(Assuming that there were no mechanical issues/faults/failures of course, I mean with a loco in full working order.)

I always thought they must've been rather underpowered

 

[D6130]

I always thought they must've been rather underpowered

When working the Glasgow-Aberdeen three hour expresses, the 21s were always diagrammed in pairs. However, that's not to say that single workings didn't occur from time to time, given the class's chronic unreliabilty. In such cases time would inevitably be lost....sometimes spectacularly.

 

[hexagon789]

When working the Glasgow-Aberdeen three hour expresses, the 21s were always diagrammed in pairs. However, that's not to say that single workings didn't occur from time to time, given the class's chronic unreliabilty. In such cases time would inevitably be lost....sometimes spectacularly.

I hadn't even realised they had worked 3 hour expresses on the route

 

[delt1c]

In full working condition, it would be interesting to see how 21/29 performance compared. Would a 21 have been able to run a Glasgow-Aberdeen 3 hour service to time consistently with up to 7 Mk1s?

(Assuming that there were no mechanical issues/faults/failures of course, I mean with a loco in full working order.)

I always thought they must've been rather underpowered

It might surprise people to see the single loads that the Scr put out with a sole type 2, Especially on the WHL.

 

[D6130]

I hadn't even realised they had worked 3 hour expresses on the route

Yes.....quite frequently in the period 1960-1963. However their chronic unreliability led to the Scottish Region putting in a bid for some of the A4 Pacifics made reduntant by the full dieselisation of the ECML South of Edinburgh in 1963, as a stop-gap measure until more class 47 locos became available.

 

[Strathclyder]

When working the Glasgow-Aberdeen three hour expresses, the 21s were always diagrammed in pairs. However, that's not to say that single workings didn't occur from time to time, given the class's chronic unreliabilty. In such cases time would inevitably be lost....sometimes spectacularly.

Double-headed 21s seemed to be a common fixture on most of the Scottish lines they operated on in the early 60s in light of their chronic unreliability, the Callander & Oban line from Dunblane to Crianlarich was no exception. From RailScot (originally taken by Frank Spaven, now part of the David Spaven collection), linked below is a pair (headed up by D6109) on a Dundee West - Glasgow Buchanan St service (image dated c.1961, no yellow warning panels or headcode boxes here!) at Perth's Plat. 1 (the same platform as the image of 29 No. D6123 in my profile pic). Doesn't look like the two ladies front and center are at all impressed that it seemingly takes two of these new-fangled diesels to do the job of one steam loco lol

Perth - RAILSCOT

RailScot, a history of Railways with an emphasis on Scottish Railways. Photographs, maps, news, queries and more.

www.railscot.co.uk

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Yes.....quite frequently in the period 1960-1963. However their chronic unreliability led to the Scottish Region putting in a bid for some of the A4 Pacifics made reduntant by the full dieselisation of the ECML South of Edinburgh in 1963, as a stop-gap measure until more class 47 locos became available.

The June 1962 timetable highlights the introduction of 3 hour schedules between Glasgow and Aberdeen, whilst Mr Welsh in his book states the ScR decided to speed up services with new 3hr timings, both of which I read as indicating any workings prior to this date would not have been 3 hr trains although I don't have a timetable to confirm this - or by how much they were speeded up.

The Welsh book also refers to removal of stops north of Perth contributing to the achievement of the 3 hour timing, each of these trains in either direction being shadowed by a 'new' 'stopper' between Perth and Aberdeen calling Coupar Angus, Alyth Jn, (Forfar), Bridge of Dun, Laurencekirk, (Stonehaven) - i.e. four stops taken out - taking 20 to 37 mins longer than the expresses with just two stops on this stretch. There is no mention of whether stops south of Perth were taken out but the other through trains in '62 took around 30 longer minutes northbound and closer to 60 minutes longer southbound than the 3hr, with typically Gleneagles, Dunblane and Larbert in addition to all the above stops plus Stirling. Mr Welsh also refers to the re-engined D6123 and BRCW type 2s appearing from 1963 without comment on their timekeeping - although it notes D6123 trailed a 3hr timing via Dundee. Calls at Perth where the A4s took water, were timed (public) as 3mins northbound and 5 mins southbound which the diesels could have improved on if required.

On the face of it the 3hr schedule for typically seven Mk1s, requiring an end to end average of 51mph inclusive of four stops - south of Forfar 30 to 40 minutes apart and slightly longer Forfar / Stonehaven and shorter Stonehaven / Aberdeen - even with the then 75mph limit, does not sound too challenging, with the most severe speed restrictions being at Perth and Forfar where the train called anyway and not too many testing gradients - out of Buchanan St and towards Kinbuck northbound and out of Stonehaven and towards Auchterarder and Gleneagles being the most severe with stretches steeper than 1 in 100 (but only about 1 1/4 miles at 1 in 79 almost straight out of Buchanan St being steeper than 1 in 90).

Of course despite the 75 mph max, speeds into the high eighties were credited on many occasions not just with Pacifics but also class 5s, particularly, but not only, on the Perth Forfar stretch in either direction. Again I don't recall mention of whether the diesels - NBL or other - achieved similar.

 

[hexagon789]

Yes.....quite frequently in the period 1960-1963. However their chronic unreliability led to the Scottish Region putting in a bid for some of the A4 Pacifics made reduntant by the full dieselisation of the ECML South of Edinburgh in 1963, as a stop-gap measure until more class 47 locos became available.

I may be recalling wrongly but I understood that:

1 - the A4s came in on 1962 to replace the unreliable diesels
2 - the 3 hour schedules were introduced in 1962

The June 1962 timetable highlights the introduction of 3 hour schedules between Glasgow and Aberdeen, whilst Mr Welsh in his book states the ScR decided to speed up services with new 3hr timings, both of which I read as indicating any workings prior to this date would not have been 3 hr trains although I don't have a timetable to confirm this - or by how much they were speeded up.

The Welsh book also refers to removal of stops north of Perth contributing to the achievement of the 3 hour timing, each of these trains in either direction being shadowed by a 'new' 'stopper' between Perth and Aberdeen calling Coupar Angus, Alyth Jn, (Forfar), Bridge of Dun, Laurencekirk, (Stonehaven) - i.e. four stops taken out - taking 20 to 37 mins longer than the expresses with just two stops on this stretch. There is no mention of whether stops south of Perth were taken out but the other through trains in '62 took around 30 longer minutes northbound and closer to 60 minutes longer southbound than the 3hr, with typically Gleneagles, Dunblane and Larbert in addition to all the above stops plus Stirling. Mr Welsh also refers to the re-engined D6123 and BRCW type 2s appearing from 1963 without comment on their timekeeping - although it notes D6123 trailed a 3hr timing via Dundee. Calls at Perth where the A4s took water, were timed (public) as 3mins northbound and 5 mins southbound which the diesels could have improved on if required.

On the face of it the 3hr schedule for typically seven Mk1s, requiring an end to end average of 51mph inclusive of four stops - south of Forfar 30 to 40 minutes apart and slightly longer Forfar / Stonehaven and shorter Stonehaven / Aberdeen - even with the then 75mph limit, does not sound too challenging, with the most severe speed restrictions being at Perth and Forfar where the train called anyway and not too many testing gradients - out of Buchanan St and towards Kinbuck northbound and out of Stonehaven and towards Auchterarder and Gleneagles being the most severe with stretches steeper than 1 in 100 (but only about 1 1/4 miles at 1 in 79 almost straight out of Buchanan St being steeper than 1 in 90).

Of course despite the 75 mph max, speeds into the high eighties were credited on many occasions not just with Pacifics but also class 5s, particularly, but not only, on the Perth Forfar stretch in either direction. Again I don't recall mention of whether the diesels - NBL or other - achieved similar.

My understanding is as yours - the 3 hour services were introduced in 1962, prior to that the fastest schedules were 3 hours 30 iirc.

However it wasn't the first 3 hour service, the LMS operated a twin-pair 3 hour service as well for a few years pre-war but with only 2 intermediate stops not 4.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

However it wasn't the first 3 hour service, the LMS operated a twin-pair 3 hour service as well for a few years pre-war but with only 2 intermediate stops not 4.

Somewhere in the back of my mind says these were worked by Jubilees - I could be wrong but I think I read that somewhere.

 

[Harvester]

When the 3 hour timings were introduced in June 1962, only two trains in each direction were involved (a morning and evening departure from both Glasgow and Aberdeen). They all had four stops at Stirling, Perth, Forfar and Stonehaven. Two A4s 60027/31 were allocated to St Rollox depot, and three 60004/9/11 to Ferryhill to work these trains. These A4s came from Haymarket, not from English sheds. The engines that came from the NER and ER arrived at the end of 1963, and most were initially stored until required, when withdrawals commenced.

 

[Taunton]

It was bad enough having oil and fuel spraying onto the hot engine crankcases, but even worse when these substances seeped through onto the generators and/or traction motors. Another problem was the electrical drive train....The GEC generators had not previously been used with such a high-revving engine and were just about at their limit of commutation at 1,500 rpm. This sometimes led to overheating of both the generators and the traction motors, provoking fires which were not connected with fuel and oil leaks.

Not issues so serious with hydraulic D63xx then.

When running double headed presumably fires in the second loco were an issue that might go unattended for some time. Was the fire bell repeated down the MU connections to the lead loco?

 

[hexagon789]

Somewhere in the back of my mind says these were worked by Jubilees - I could be wrong but I think I read that somewhere.

No, I think that's correct. I couldn't remember the class but now you've mentioned "Jubilees" I seem to remember reading that from a book I have.

When the 3 hour timings were introduced in June 1962, only two trains in each direction were involved (a morning and evening departure from both Glasgow and Aberdeen). They all had four stops at Stirling, Perth, Forfar and Stonehaven. Two A4s 60027/31 were allocated to St Rollox depot, and three 60004/9/11 to Ferryhill to work these trains. These A4s came from Haymarket, not from English sheds. The engines that came from the NER and ER arrived at the end of 1963, and most were initially stored until required, when withdrawals commenced.

Same as with the LMS, though I think it was a morning and a mid-afternoon pair one way rather than morning and evening both ways, the LMS services called at either Perth and Stonehaven or Perth and Forfar only.

 

[D6130]

Yes, apologies....my memory seems to be failing me again! Looking in my Summer 1961 Scottish Region passenger timetable, the Down "Granite City", 10 15 Buchanan Street-Aberdeen took 3 hours and 30 minutes, reaching Aberdeen at 13 45, with stops at Perth, Coupar Angus, Alyth Junction, Forfar, Bridge of Dun, Laurencekirk and Stonehaven; while the Down "Bon Accord", 12 15 from Buchanan Street, took 3 hours and 16 minutes, reaching Aberdeen at 15 31, with stops at Stirling, Perth, Forfar and Stonehaven and the "Saint Mungo", 17 30 from Buchanan Street took 3 hours and 32 minutes, arriving at Aberdeen 21 02, with stops at Stirling, Perth, Coupar Angus, Alyth Junction, Forfar, Bridge of Dun, Laurencekirk and Stonehaven. In the Up direction, the expresses generally took a little longer - sometimes as much as four hours,due mainly to additonal stops at Gleneagles and Larbert. The fastest regular weekday Up service, the 18 05 "Granite City" from Aberdeen, took 3 hours and 34 minutes, with stops at Stonehaven, Forfar, Perth, Gleneagles, Stirling and Larbert.

Fast forward to the Summer of 1963 and the two 3 hour services in each direction were - as stated by Harvester - the "Grampian", 08 25 from Buchanan Street and the "Saint Mungo", 17 30 departure. In the Up direction, they were the 07 10 "Bon Accord" and 17 15 "Granite City". The 'middle of the day' services still ran to slower timings with more stops.

 

[hexagon789]

Yes, apologies....my memory seems to be failing me again! Looking in my Summer 1961 Scottish Region passenger timetable, the Down "Granite City", 10 15 Buchanan Street-Aberdeen took 3 hours and 30 minutes, reaching Aberdeen at 13 45, with stops at Perth, Coupar Angus, Alyth Junction, Forfar, Bridge of Dun, Laurencekirk and Stonehaven; while the Down "Bon Accord", 12 15 from Buchanan Street, took 3 hours and 16 minutes, reaching Aberdeen at 15 31, with stops at Stirling, Perth, Forfar and Stonehaven and the "Saint Mungo", 17 30 from Buchanan Street took 3 hours and 32 minutes, arriving at Aberdeen 21 02, with stops at Stirling, Perth, Coupar Angus, Alyth Junction, Forfar, Bridge of Dun, Laurencekirk and Stonehaven. In the Up direction, the expresses generally took a little longer - sometimes as much as four hours,due mainly to additonal stops at Gleneagles and Larbert. The fastest regular weekday Up service, the 18 05 "Granite City" from Aberdeen, took 3 hours and 34 minutes, with stops at Stonehaven, Forfar, Perth, Gleneagles, Stirling and Larbert.

Fast forward to the Summer of 1963 and the two 3 hour services in each direction were - as stated by Harvester - the "Grampian", 08 25 from Buchanan Street and the "Saint Mungo", 17 30 departure. In the Up direction, they were the 07 10 "Bon Accord" and 17 15 "Granite City". The 'middle of the day' services still ran to slower timings with more stops.

The midday semi-fasts sometimes conveyed fish vans, there was a note in the carriage workings specially authorising it because otherwise the 4 named Glasgow-Aberdeen were all "Class Z" stock.

 

[D6130]

When running double headed presumably fires in the second loco were an issue that might go unattended for some time. Was the fire bell repeated down the MU connections to the lead loco?

While Mr Sayer's book has a lot of information about the numerous locomotive fires and their causes, I'm afraid I can't find anything about the automatic fire-fighting and alarm systems.....if indeed they were fitted.

 

[Inversnecky]

Which book is "the bible" referenced earlier?

 

[hexagon789]

Which book is "the bible" referenced earlier?

I assume Anthony Sayer's book:

 

[D6130]

I assume Anthony Sayer's book

That's the one!

 

[Inversnecky]

Thanks, must have got my wires crossed and thought another book was being referenced.

 

[Richard Scott]

Not issues so serious with hydraulic D63xx then.

When running double headed presumably fires in the second loco were an issue that might go unattended for some time. Was the fire bell repeated down the MU connections to the lead loco?

On most blue Star locos there is a wire for sending fire alarm signal to lead loco if it goes off in rear one, that may have been the case with 21s but afraid not a class I have any expertise in at all!

 

[Strathclyder]

Further to the topic of Sayer's book: it's a literal bible for classic diesel loco buffs like moi! Literally couldn't tear myself away from it eariler. Now buried deep in his book (in the same series: Locomotive Portfolios - Diesel & Electric) on the D57xx Metrovicks (aka Class 28 aka Crossleys aka Loafs aka Co-Bos/Bo-Cos). Anyone who hasn't picked it up and wants perhaps the definitive account on these machines, by all means go for it. A bit pricey yes, but you're paying for what may end up becoming the last word on the 21s/29s. Am now eagerly looking forward to the arrival of his Clayton book (also in the aforementioned series) from WHSmith.

 

[hexagon789]

On most blue Star locos there is a wire for sending fire alarm signal to lead loco if it goes off in rear one, that may have been the case with 21s but afraid not a class I have any expertise in at all!

The push-pull 27s had to have a modification to allow the rear loco fire extinguishers to be set off remoteoy5 from the leading loco. If any other Blue Star loco was trailing then the Secondman had to travel on it in case of fire.

As the 21s were not so modified afaik presumably the default situation applied for locos working in multiple both at the front

 

[randyrippley]

The push-pull 27s had to have a modification to allow the rear loco fire extinguishers to be set off remoteoy5 from the leading loco. If any other Blue Star loco was trailing then the Secondman had to travel on it in case of fire.

As the 21s were not so modified afaik presumably the default situation applied for locos working in multiple both at the front

I thought the 27 mod was for the extinguishers to be automatically triggered, not remotely

 

[Taunton]

I thought the 27 mod was for the extinguishers to be automatically triggered, not remotely

I had believed the 27 automatic modification was only for the extinguisher(s) around the 27/2 Deutz auxiliary diesel which powered the ETH, which had a propensity to overheat and, then, catch fire. Particularly in the autumn when first activated; the early Mk 2 stock did not have AC, only heating.

Inevitably the extinguisher activation system was more unreliable than the auxiliary diesel itself. I've written about these before. I think they were CO2. Sudden cloud emanating from the loco against the Queen Street buffers (the ETH loco was marshalled at the Glasgow end). The Deutz could have done with a better silencer as well.

 

[hexagon789]

I thought the 27 mod was for the extinguishers to be automatically triggered, not remotely

The drivers instructions refer use the word 'remotely' and that's how I've seen it described. Presumably because the other loco was 'remote' from the driver.

I'm still not clear exactly the difference between this arrangement and that on locos in multiple working next to each other though

I had believed the 27 automatic modification was only for the extinguisher(s) around the 27/2 Deutz auxiliary diesel which powered the ETH, which had a propensity to overheat and, then, catch fire. Particularly in the autumn when first activated; the early Mk 2 stock did not have AC, only heating.

Yes, /2s

 

[grumpyoldman01]

That's precisely what I was thinking of, though I believe they had an allocation of A1s/A2s as well? Though I think they were more common on Edinburgh-Aberdeen.

I visited Scotland in 1965 or 1966 and here were two A2s helping out the A4s on services north of Glasgow, 60530 Sayajario and 60532 Blue Peter; I don't recall seeing any A1s

On the same day as I saw both of the above, I travelled behind a class 29 from Glasgow Buchanan Street to Aberdeen by the old CR route through Bridge of Dun; that's the only time I was hauled by a class 29, and I can't remember ever being behind a 21

Class 22s were still having heavy overhauls at Swindon in 1967, and in the early summer of that year I travelled behind D600 between Plymouth and Penzance; it was spotless in blue, and had received split headcode boxes on either side of it's nose doors at some time since it had been built, Later the same day, I travelled behind a scruffy green one - I think it was D604 - between Truro and Plymouth. I don't know what class 22s were being used for at that time, but I was down in Devon and Cornwall for just over a week and my recollection is that whenever I saw them out and about during that time they were coupled in pairs

 

[D6130]

I visited Scotland in 1956 or 1966 and here were two A2s helping out the A4s on services north of Glasgow, 60530 Sayajario and 60532 Blue Peter; I don't recall seeing any A1s

On the same day as I saw both of the above, I travelled behind a class 29 from Glasgow Buchanan Street to Aberdeen by the old CR route through Bridge of Dun; that's the only time I was hauled by a class 29, and I can't remember ever being behind a 21

Class 22s were still having heavy overhauls at Swindon in 1967, and in the early summer of that year I travelled behind D600 between Plymouth and Penzance; it was spotless in blue, and had received split headcode boxes on either side of it's nose doors at some time since it had been built, Later the same day, I travelled behind a scruffy green one - I think it was D604 - between Truro and Plymouth. I don't know what class 22s were being used for at that time, but I was down in Devon and Cornwall for just over a week and my recollection is that whenever I saw them out and about during that time they were coupled in pairs

I believe that the pairs of 22s in Cornwall in the mid-'sixties and early 'seventies were used mainly on the china clay services....as well as singly on branch line freight services to Bodmin and Wadebridge and possibly weekend engineering trains. Single locos were often used for piloting heavy passenger trains over the Devon banks and for freight trips to Meldon Quarry, Meeth, Hemyock, etc.

 

[Harvester]

Directly related to this, the last A4s in BR service were the ones that were parachuted into the Scottish Region to cover for the ailing NBLs on the Glasgow Buchanan St - Aberdeen (via Forfar) express services. Last out-and-back run was on 3rd Sep. 1966 behind 60019 Bittern.

Although this was meant to be the last run, the Railway Observer reported that A4 60024 Kingfisher worked the 17:15 Aberdeen-Glasgow on 13th September 1966 and the following morning’s 08:25 back. Quite surprising to find Kingfisher on top link passenger workings ten days after its official withdrawal from service.