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The Post-Deregulation Era (1986-2000)

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Statto

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I do recall busways drivers making a few bob but the amount they got was nothing compared to loss of wages and worsening of conditions. Where as the chosen few became rich men. I don't blame them and hold no ill will towards them, I would have done much the same had I been in their position.

I remember looking at the land our company owned and thinking wish it was mine. Is there a list of how much companies were sold for?

Why was United split into 3 when bigger companies were left in one piece?


GM Buses was another one split into 2, but West Midlands Travel kept as one.
 

90sWereBetter

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Mainline (aka the continuity South Yorkshire PTE operator) came close to setting off a three-way bus war hundreds of miles away in Ipswich in 1994. They registered some competitive routes against the municipal Ipswich Buses and Eastern Counties (who I think were still independent at the time, not sure exactly when GRT bought them out), and it looked like all hell was about to break loose around the Orwell. Obviously the numbers didn't add up or a back door deal was done as the competitive routes never began and the batch of Volvo B6s which had been bought in readiness were sold directly to Eastern Counties. The legacy was a period of IB and EC sharing Ipswich town services until around 2000/01. Wonder how that agreement was broached, given joint services seems to go against the idea of deregulation!

Also, I do wonder why Mainline thought going after Ipswich was a good idea, it's never been fertile ground for bus wars and Ipswich Buses were in a much stronger position than they are now.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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GM Buses was another one split into 2, but West Midlands Travel kept as one.

I think I read somewhere that both GM and WMT were lined up to be split. The local politicians in Manchester were complaining vocally and that may not have advanced their cause. The ones in the Midlands were more subtle and persuasive and convinced the authorities to allow the sale as a single entity. Might be apocryphal but dunno!
 

bussnapperwm

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I think I read somewhere that both GM and WMT were lined up to be split. The local politicians in Manchester were complaining vocally and that may not have advanced their cause. The ones in the Midlands were more subtle and persuasive and convinced the authorities to allow the sale as a single entity. Might be apocryphal but dunno!

Personally I think it would have been better for the independent operators such as Birmingham Coach had WM got split as the WM Travelcard would not have been a major problem for competing operators as it was.
 

northrob

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You talking about Stagey and YT given the Perth bus war or something else?

Certainly, the Perth bus war would have been one of the the occasions. However, I presuming he's also referring to the end of Darlington Transport, which Yorkshire Traction were the preferred bigger over Stagecoach before the latter waded in with a free bus service across the town...
 

GusB

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There are a few reunifications. United was split into three and whilst the Scarborough ops are still with EY, Northumbria was eventually brought under the same as Arriva. Western National was split into four bits in 1983 (though DG has retained its name and a separate fleet number sequence) yet Western National, Southern National and North Devon all ended up under First eventually (if only for a while). Badgerline and Cityline separated in 1985 but were under common ownership by 1988.

There was a similar situation north of the border too with the creation of Kelvin Scottish in the re-organisation of 1985, soon to be followed by the merger of the Kelvin and Central operations prior to privatisation. Similarly with Clydeside being split from Western, merged back into Western and then immediately split again after the sell-off.

We're left now with the situation where most of the old Alexander Empire is almost reunified under the Stagecoach banner, apart from the Glasgow and Central Scotland operations which remain with First. In fact, in terms of geographical area, there's not much of the former SBG territory that isn't in Stagecoach hands!
 

northrob

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Didn't West Midlands Travel invest in a couple of operations outside the Midlands. I'm sure one of them was a participant in the Darlington War

West Midlands Travel bought Westcourt Group in 1994 (I think), which was the firm that owned United, Teesside Motor Services and Tees and District. United had been embroiled in a protracted battle with a former MD who set up a rival operation in Darlington since 1993. They also purchased Lynton Travel Group who owned Citibus in Manchester, and County Bus and Coach (mainly the Essex area of the former London Country North East). IIRC, NatEx bought WMT but didn't want the non core bits so they were sold to First (Citibus) and Cowie Group.

As well as the usual operators using ex-WMT vehicles sill in their livery, I think that WMT also hired out surplus vehicles to other operators, which might have given an impression that they had invested in other operators. Having said that, some people in the past have implied that they were behind the operation of Delta Buses of Mansfield in the mid-90s...
 

TheGrandWazoo

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As well as the usual operators using ex-WMT vehicles sill in their livery, I think that WMT also hired out surplus vehicles to other operators, which might have given an impression that they had invested in other operators. Having said that, some people in the past have implied that they were behind the operation of Delta Buses of Mansfield in the mid-90s...
They did hire out and one of the clients was Darlington Transport!!

That arrangement abruptly ended when WMT bought Westcourt, not surprisingly!
 

PaulWC

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Thanks for that

Another one, after the Drawline Group brought Crosville, the Crosville area was split again with Winsford & Runcorn depots into North Western, Crewe became Midland Red North, Macclesfield was C-Line then became Stevensons, with Wirral, Ellesmere Port & Chester depots as mentioned sold to PMT, the Drawline bus division became British Bus, not sure if Stevensons ever merged with Midland Red North before they became Arriva Midlands or not?

You had Stevensons running services to Birmingham & Manchester, with most of the Stevensons services were in & around Burton & Uttoxeter, Midland Red North running services from Chester to Birmingham too

It was Warrington, Runcorn and Northwich that went to North Western. I think the move to Winsford came after the change.

The Macclesfield depot is a story all its own. It was split off from Crosville (with the outstation at Congleton) to become part of Bee Line, who set up a separate subsidiary called C-Line which eventually became a business of its own. C-Line was then run as part of MRN and adopted MRN livery (Firstly as C-Line Midland Red, and then with the all red Midland livery). Next, the Macclesfield depot was hived off to Stevensons. I think Stevensons and MRN must have had the same management as they ended up with the same red and yellow livery and similar logos. Then of course it became Arriva.

At one point with the inclusion of the Macclesfield depot, the MRN area stretched from Manchester to Birmingham. It never did make sense swopping Macclesfield from MRN to Stevensons, although within a couple of years it was all Arriva anyway.
 

Tetchytyke

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Got to remember that virtually all the Busways drivers voted to accept it. Might have been that quite a few were perhaps "of an age" and it was a pay day they couldn't refuse and wouldn't have had too long to suffer the lower terms and conditions

When Stagecoach come calling, you don't turn them down, at least you didn't then. I think Busways selling out was the right call and, I presume, TUPE would have protected the existing staff from any dramatic changes, at least for a while.

ou talking about Stagey and YT given the Perth bus war or something else?

I was more referring to Darlington, with Tracky being the preferred bidder for Darlington Transport, but as you say Perth with Strathtay was the same.

Others like Midland Red West or West Yorkshire are less so

Do you mean the county or West Yorkshire Road Car? I wouldn't say West Yorkshire Road Car was that unrecognisable, with Coastliner, Keighley and Harrogate still pretty much the same as they always were, although without Leeds, Bradford and York. Across the county not that much has really changed either.
 
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Statto

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Mainline (aka the continuity South Yorkshire PTE operator) came close to setting off a three-way bus war hundreds of miles away in Ipswich in 1994. They registered some competitive routes against the municipal Ipswich Buses and Eastern Counties (who I think were still independent at the time, not sure exactly when GRT bought them out), and it looked like all hell was about to break loose around the Orwell. Obviously the numbers didn't add up or a back door deal was done as the competitive routes never began and the batch of Volvo B6s which had been bought in readiness were sold directly to Eastern Counties. The legacy was a period of IB and EC sharing Ipswich town services until around 2000/01. Wonder how that agreement was broached, given joint services seems to go against the idea of deregulation!

Also, I do wonder why Mainline thought going after Ipswich was a good idea, it's never been fertile ground for bus wars and Ipswich Buses were in a much stronger position than they are now.

The story of Macclesfield depot 1988 to 2003 could well be a chapter in a book, the depot & bus station now gone, with the new depot out of Town & a new bus station, Arriva reorganised Crewe & Macclesfield depos to North West in 2003, & Crewe depot has since gone.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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When Stagecoach come calling, you don't turn them down, at least you didn't then. I think Busways selling out was the right call and, I presume, TUPE would have protected the existing staff from any dramatic changes, at least for a while.

TUPE wouldn't apply as there was no change of employer. The firm was acquired. However, you would have to buy out the terms and conditions.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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The story of Macclesfield depot 1988 to 2003 could well be a chapter in a book, the depot & bus station now gone, with the new depot out of Town & a new bus station, Arriva reorganised Crewe & Macclesfield depos to North West in 2003, & Crewe depot has since gone.

There was an article by JT Cash (the manager of C-Line during Drawlane days) who recounted the challenges of operating Macclesfield.
 

Statto

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There was an article by JT Cash (the manager of C-Line during Drawlane days) who recounted the challenges of operating Macclesfield.

I'll bet the biggest challenge was running from a depot in a small town with a lot of the surrounding area very rural & quite posh, that part of Cheshire is known as the Surrey of the North West
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I'll bet the biggest challenge was running from a depot in a small town with a lot of the surrounding area very rural & quite posh, that part of Cheshire is known as the Surrey of the North West
Think it was that, congestion on the A34, an ageing fleet that was struggling to meet council age and access requirements, and Drawlane expecting ridiculous margins!
 

PaulWC

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There was an article by JT Cash (the manager of C-Line during Drawlane days) who recounted the challenges of operating Macclesfield.
Think it was that, congestion on the A34, an ageing fleet that was struggling to meet council age and access requirements, and Drawlane expecting ridiculous margins!

The article you mention was in Buses magazine June 1997 - as you say by John Cash who described himself as the first and only General manager of C-Line Bus Company. The expectations of Drawlane, working to a budget incorrectly processed by MRN in Cannock, and even the roadworks to build the inner relief road in Macc were mentioned. The issues with the 130 and the potential for delays given the length of the journey were a problem that only got worse as the years went by. He also says how C-Line wanted to take on Crewe from MRN and Winsford from NW, to give them more scope for expansion, but it was knocked back by Drawlane but with repeated calls for cost cutting. Another thing that does stands out from this article, and others I've read about MRN in Crewe, is the desperate state Crosville must have been in prior to its split and eventual sale.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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The article you mention was in Buses magazine June 1997 - as you say by John Cash who described himself as the first and only General manager of C-Line Bus Company. The expectations of Drawlane, working to a budget incorrectly processed by MRN in Cannock, and even the roadworks to build the inner relief road in Macc were mentioned. The issues with the 130 and the potential for delays given the length of the journey were a problem that only got worse as the years went by. He also says how C-Line wanted to take on Crewe from MRN and Winsford from NW, to give them more scope for expansion, but it was knocked back by Drawlane but with repeated calls for cost cutting. Another thing that does stands out from this article, and others I've read about MRN in Crewe, is the desperate state Crosville must have been in prior to its split and eventual sale.

Sounds like I remembered a fair chunk of it.

Fair to say that the sale of Crosville to ATL was a very sorry episode. I think Mr Cash did a similar article on his time working for ATL and the life of National Travel East and its transition to becoming SUT.
 

Statto

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Crosville was a basket case by when it was sold, the Liverpool depot had been shut down with the drivers sacked after a lengthy strike in early 87 & lost all of the routes the depot operated which didn't help things.

Another one North Western started a short lived bus war in Warrington, North Western already had a presence in Warrington mostly on interurban routes but started local Town services against then Warrington Borough Transport[WBT], MTLs St Helens depot now under Lancashire Travel brand also responded with routes in Warrington, WBT responded in kind with routes over North Westerns, WBT were already seen in Liverpool operating the tendered Sunday H5 Warrington-Liverpool, as i said the war was short lived, locals stayed loyal to WBT.

Blackpool Transport buses were seen in Liverpool in service too, when they took on the Sunday tendered 761 Liverpool-Blackpool later became 754/758.

The main 761 Liverpool-Blackpool itself saw Ribble presence in Liverpool after d-reg as Ribble's Merseyside & South Lancashire operations had been transferred to resurrected North Western Road Car Company [but with a different operating area to the previous North Western Road Car Company] a month before d-reg, the 761 was a joint service with North Western
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Crosville was a basket case by when it was sold, the Liverpool depot had been shut down with the drivers sacked after a lengthy strike in early 87 & lost all of the routes the depot operated which didn't help things.

That much is true in terms of the Liverpool strike. It could have been a bridgehead as they had some substantial tender wins for which the offending VRs arrived. Instead, the strike allowed various indies plus Merseybus and Halton to fill the vacuum. Doubtless, explains why Crosville was one of the last firms to be privatised.

ATL bought it, invested nothing and then "realised" the depot sites at West Kirby and Heswall (I think, and possibly Warrington?) before flogging it off to Drawlane less than a year later, who then broke up the business. Northwich and Runcorn went within Drawlane to North Western and Crewe to MRN, with the remaining ops sold to PMT. From privatisation to oblivion in 2 years (though the Crosville name survived with PMT until the First years).
 

PaulWC

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That much is true in terms of the Liverpool strike. It could have been a bridgehead as they had some substantial tender wins for which the offending VRs arrived. Instead, the strike allowed various indies plus Merseybus and Halton to fill the vacuum. Doubtless, explains why Crosville was one of the last firms to be privatised.

ATL bought it, invested nothing and then "realised" the depot sites at West Kirby and Heswall (I think, and possibly Warrington?) before flogging it off to Drawlane less than a year later, who then broke up the business. Northwich and Runcorn went within Drawlane to North Western and Crewe to MRN, with the remaining ops sold to PMT. From privatisation to oblivion in 2 years (though the Crosville name survived with PMT until the First years).

I'm not sure what happened with the Warrington site, although they did move around 1988. They did try to get rid of the Crewe depot, but later discovered the site couldn't be re-developed til 2010. Northwich was closed as well.

And under ATL Crosville took over Yelloway services taking them deep into Manchester and Rochdale at a time when resources would've been better deployed closer to home. There was also the suspicion that ATL were just a holding company before Drawlane could take over.
 

Statto

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I'm not sure what happened with the Warrington site, although they did move around 1988. They did try to get rid of the Crewe depot, but later discovered the site couldn't be re-developed til 2010. Northwich was closed as well.

And under ATL Crosville took over Yelloway services taking them deep into Manchester and Rochdale at a time when resources would've been better deployed closer to home. There was also the suspicion that ATL were just a holding company before Drawlane could take over.

Crosville didn't need the amount of depots it had too, on the Wirral alone Crosville had depots at Rock Ferry[now with Stagecoach], West Kirby & Heswall, both Heswall & West Kirby had gone by 1990 leaving Rock Ferry, almost every Town had a Crosville depot or outstation.
 

lincman

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There was an article by JT Cash (the manager of C-Line during Drawlane days) who recounted the challenges of operating Macclesfield.
Mr J T Cash who I am happy to say I had occasions to work with, had great insight into the industry knew only too well that Macclesfield and Stockport depots of Bee Line were considered basket cases by Drawlane who were only to glad to see the back of them
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Mr J T Cash who I am happy to say I had occasions to work with, had great insight into the industry knew only too well that Macclesfield and Stockport depots of Bee Line were considered basket cases by Drawlane who were only to glad to see the back of them

To be fair, he seemed to do a decent job considering the limitations placed upon him. I think he closed Bredbury but managed to keep Macc going, weeding out the knackered Leopards and the Sherpas. Even managed to get new vehicles in Merc 811s though much of the fleet was the flotsam of Drawlane or the remnants of the former Crosville fleet.

Think that situation lasted until C-Line was absorbed into MRN, but eventually, the Cheshire ops ended up under the Arriva NW banner so being reunited with the Runcorn.
 

RT4038

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There's a pretty big chunk of North East which isn't with Arriva - the whole Welwyn>Hatfield>St Albans area is now with Uno / various independents. Arriva have retained the 'through' routes but that's about it.

And whilst Stevenage for example is under Arriva now, it's worth remembering both that and LCNW had been bought out by Luton & District - the fact the whole L&D operation became British Bus and then Arriva is a quirk of history. If anything what you've ended up with north of London is the operations which were LT have ended up under the control of what had been the western division of Eastern National - remembering Eastern National's western area was reallocated to United Counties in the 1950s. Which in its own way is what I believe should have happened in 1933 rather than those areas being gifted to LPTB.

In many ways United Counties is back to its original 'core' of North Beds and Northants - which was its main area until it was extended southwards in the 1950s as detailed above.

I am not sure that this is right - The 'original' (i.e. pre 1952 takeover of the Midland area of ENOC) United Counties did not operate in North Beds, except for very minor route incursions in the Rushden area.
 
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