The Post-Deregulation Era (1986-2000)

[TheGrandWazoo]

Definitely. It wasn't a cosy arrangement, it was Go forcing the issue, although the resulting truce was very very amenable to both sides. The resulting effect has been extremely anti-competitive; for all the glossy sheen, Go services are extraordinarily expensive, even for an area which has high prices and mediocre quality.

My memory is hazy, did all this come out before or after Huntley died in a climbing accident?

It came out after Peter Huntley had left Go Ahead and before his unfortunate death.

The truce was amenable if only because it got Arriva out of a hole. To be honest, Go Ahead made a better go of things that Arriva had in the Tyne Valley. The 602 that had been THE trunk route to Hexham with Northumbria had gone from ex Green Line Olympian coaches to new high spec Olympians to some rather ropey Arriva Tridents before it was dropped to single decks on the same frequency with some older B10BLEs; the Hexham operation was rather down at heel. Go Ahead put in Citaros and then new B9TLs in there, and have also expanded the operations there. They've done ok for the Tyne Valley IMHO.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The other visible change was the sale of bus garages for housing developments (e.g. Dunton Green), and more open field operations (not literally, but less under-cover facilities).

I mentioned this in #21 in that some firms were sold on the basis that the properties went to developers and leased back to the operator (who bought the buses/ops) such as London Country NE, London Country SW and West Yorkshire.

There is the oft quoted example of Southampton bus depot/station being sold by Stagecoach but the NBC had actually tried to offload it in the late 1970s IIRC.

 

[MotCO]

I mentioned this in #21 in that some firms were sold on the basis that the properties went to developers and leased back to the operator (who bought the buses/ops) such as London Country NE, London Country SW and West Yorkshire.

There is the oft quoted example of Southampton bus depot/station being sold by Stagecoach but the NBC had actually tried to offload it in the late 1970s IIRC.

Yes, I had read that - I was trying to say, perhaps somewhat clumsily, that, before deregulation, I think that more buses were garaged under cover than afterwards.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes, I had read that - I was trying to say, perhaps somewhat clumsily, that, before deregulation, I think that more buses were garaged under cover than afterwards.

Ah right.

Guess most bus garages were built before the war and the belief was you needed that to protect against the winter weather.

Certainly, more depots built in the 1960s onwards (Skelmerdale, Cannock) had more open parking. With business rates and utilities, you can understand why they have moved to lower cost premises.

One observation is that Stagecoach have been good at moving to new premises rather than outright closures.

 

[Vespa]

Did this period also see the rise of Ensignbus, as a conduit to move buses deemed surplus to requiremens to some of the newly expanding operators?

At that time I wasn't familiar with Ensign bus, so I don't know what happened behind the scenes, I will say a lot of old buses and coaches was brought out that really should be in a museum, one coach shuddered badly every time it moved off from a bus stop.

There were a few holdouts like Halton and Warrington bus that was retained by local councils in a stand alone Bus Company.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

At that time I wasn't familiar with Ensign bus, so I don't know what happened behind the scenes, I will say a lot of old buses and coaches was brought out that really should be in a museum, one coach shuddered badly every time it moved off from a bus stop.

There were a few holdouts like Halton and Warrington bus that was retained by local councils in a stand alone Bus Company.

Ensign as a dealer existed before then; they disposed of many LT DMS Fleetlines in the early 1980s

 

[Robertj21a]

Ensign as a dealer existed before then; they disposed of many LT DMS Fleetlines in the early 1980s

Wasn't Peter Newman a bus dealer even before it became Ensign ?

 

[A0wen]

One observation is that Stagecoach have been good at moving to new premises rather than outright closures.

That could be as much about the type of operations which Stagecoach bought out though where depots had larger operating areas rather than small depots in every town ?

They have closed a few depots along the way - United Counties under Stagecoach saw Wellingborough and Biggleswade closed for example.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That could be as much about the type of operations which Stagecoach bought out though where depots had larger operating areas rather than small depots in every town ?

They have closed a few depots along the way - United Counties under Stagecoach saw Wellingborough and Biggleswade closed for example.

I know they sold Bedford Road in Northampton but always thought Wellingborough went before Stagecoach. Biggleswade was replaced by a large compound - assume that eventually went as Stagecoach retreated north?? The real surprise was that they kept Corby though.

They have obviously cashed in on many sites incl some without replacement but they have replaced quite a few with new sites.

 

[A0wen]

I know they sold Bedford Road in Northampton but always thought Wellingborough went before Stagecoach. Biggleswade was replaced by a large compound - assume that eventually went as Stagecoach retreated north?? The real surprise was that they kept Corby though.

They have obviously cashed in on many sites incl some without replacement but they have replaced quite a few with new sites.

According to t'interweb Wellingborough went 6 months after Stagecoach took over.

Biggleswade they decamped to the Charles Cook coaches yard next to the A1. I assume the consolidation from there was back to Bedford which isn't very far.

With Northampton, Bedford Road wouldn't have been an ideal site - long gone by the time I got to know the area, but I can see why it would have been problematic - Rothersthorpe Ave Industrial Area makes much more sense.

I guess with Corby it's got enough work to keep it viable - don't forget independents haven't really gained a foothold up there, in fact Centrebus pulled out of it a couple of years back. Stagecoach have the town services all sorted - running out of town takes you into rural areas pretty quickly and without local authority support those routes really aren't viable.

And of course the Huntingdon operations they sold.

 

[Robertj21a]

According to t'interweb Wellingborough went 6 months after Stagecoach took over.

Biggleswade they decamped to the Charles Cook coaches yard next to the A1. I assume the consolidation from there was back to Bedford which isn't very far.

With Northampton, Bedford Road wouldn't have been an ideal site - long gone by the time I got to know the area, but I can see why it would have been problematic - Rothersthorpe Ave Industrial Area makes much more sense.

I guess with Corby it's got enough work to keep it viable - don't forget independents haven't really gained a foothold up there, in fact Centrebus pulled out of it a couple of years back. Stagecoach have the town services all sorted - running out of town takes you into rural areas pretty quickly and without local authority support those routes really aren't viable.

And of course the Huntingdon operations they sold.

Centrebus only pulled out of operations at Corby a few months ago. I believe that they may still be using the depot/yard.

 

[baza585]

I mentioned this in #21 in that some firms were sold on the basis that the properties went to developers and leased back to the operator (who bought the buses/ops) such as London Country NE, London Country SW and West Yorkshire.

There is the oft quoted example of Southampton bus depot/station being sold by Stagecoach but the NBC had actually tried to offload it in the late 1970s IIRC.

Interesting. I seem to recall NBC trying to sell the bus station site long ago but I didn't realise they wanted to sell the depot as well. It was the depot Stagecoach sold for more than they paid for the whole of Hampshire Bus......

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

According to t'interweb Wellingborough went 6 months after Stagecoach took over.

Biggleswade they decamped to the Charles Cook coaches yard next to the A1. I assume the consolidation from there was back to Bedford which isn't very far.

With Northampton, Bedford Road wouldn't have been an ideal site - long gone by the time I got to know the area, but I can see why it would have been problematic - Rothersthorpe Ave Industrial Area makes much more sense.

I guess with Corby it's got enough work to keep it viable - don't forget independents haven't really gained a foothold up there, in fact Centrebus pulled out of it a couple of years back. Stagecoach have the town services all sorted - running out of town takes you into rural areas pretty quickly and without local authority support those routes really aren't viable.

And of course the Huntingdon operations they sold.

Different area of information superhighway suggests it closed before Stagecoach https://www.rushdenheritage.co.uk/transport/united-counties.html viz " A deregulation split on 1st January 1986, saw United Counties was bought by Stagecoach after the proposed Management buyout bid was outbid by Brian Souter & Co. The Wellingborough depot was closed on 26th April 1986". Bedford Road was a bit of a prime site on a main road and was the former central works IIRC. However, as the fleet was garaged at Greyfriars, it was also oversized compared to what they needed so can't deny it made sense to relocate to Rothersthorpe and something of a more appropriate size. Corby was threatened with closure in the past and with Kettering only 10 miles away, it's done well to survive.

Once upon a time, seemingly most towns with a population of 15k people would have their own little NBC depot and that was certainly rationalised and some people most definitely profiteered on rather limited valuations of the properties.

It was interesting to see that when Stagecoach sold the depots at Dover and Herne Bay, they opened up new sites. Same with the other Hampshire sites (aside from Southampton) where they've cashed in on town centre sites but even replaced Andover. In contrast, you have Arriva North East operating over a patch from Durham and Teesside down to Scarborough from just four depots.

 

[David Verity]

It came out after Peter Huntley had left Go Ahead and before his unfortunate death.

The truce was amenable if only because it got Arriva out of a hole. To be honest, Go Ahead made a better go of things that Arriva had in the Tyne Valley. The 602 that had been THE trunk route to Hexham with Northumbria had gone from ex Green Line Olympian coaches to new high spec Olympians to some rather ropey Arriva Tridents before it was dropped to single decks on the same frequency with some older B10BLEs; the Hexham operation was rather down at heel. Go Ahead put in Citaros and then new B9TLs in there, and have also expanded the operations there. They've done ok for the Tyne Valley IMHO.

I'm coming late to this discussion so forgive me if this point has already been made - My recollection is that at one stage open warfare broke out with threats of "drivers eating raw meat" until intervention (by Competition Commission would that be?) and heads being banged together. Sorry memory of the facts is hazy but might add another dimension to the debate.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm coming late to this discussion so forgive me if this point has already been made - My recollection is that at one stage open warfare broke out with threats of "drivers eating raw meat" until intervention (by Competition Commission would that be?) and heads being banged together. Sorry memory of the facts is hazy but might add another dimension to the debate.

You’re right about the red meat remark. That was an Arriva manager who was talking about their drivers competing on the Cramlingtons, Saltwells, X21.

However, Go Ahead had really already won so when the secret deal was struck, it meant they ended up with more territory than before.

 

[northrob]

Going back to my original post, I’ve realised that I missed an operator that had some operations some way outside of their territory and, rather embarrassingly, one the places was where I’ve lived all my life!

One of the many companies that have operated open-top tours of York was Lothian Region Transport with their Classic Tour. This was in response to Guide Friday setting up in Edinburgh with a Tour and also competing on the 100 Airport service (although I don’t know the order in who set up what up there first). LRT also set up tours in Cambridge & Oxford – in some cases working with a local operator. I believe that in Oxford it was Tappins.

In York, LRT appeared to have started working with another tour operator with the Jorvik Classic Tour. However towards the end of the 1990s, they operated it alone as the York Classic Tour and even won a few school contracts meaning that a number of closed-top Atlanteans were allocated to York complete with LRT York fleet names.

During 1999, LRT gave up their operation in York and some of the vehicles were taken on by a new operator – Yorkbus. Yorkbus started running a few services in city in competition with First York, however the company did not last very long at all – maybe even less than a couple of months...

 

[Stan Drews]

Going back to my original post, I’ve realised that I missed an operator that had some operations some way outside of their territory and, rather embarrassingly, one the places was where I’ve lived all my life!

One of the many companies that have operated open-top tours of York was Lothian Region Transport with their Classic Tour. This was in response to Guide Friday setting up in Edinburgh with a Tour and also competing on the 100 Airport service (although I don’t know the order in who set up what up there first). LRT also set up tours in Cambridge & Oxford – in some cases working with a local operator. I believe that in Oxford it was Tappins.

In York, LRT appeared to have started working with another tour operator with the Jorvik Classic Tour. However towards the end of the 1990s, they operated it alone as the York Classic Tour and even won a few school contracts meaning that a number of closed-top Atlanteans were allocated to York complete with LRT York fleet names.

During 1999, LRT gave up their operation in York and some of the vehicles were taken on by a new operator – Yorkbus. Yorkbus started running a few services in city in competition with First York, however the company did not last very long at all – maybe even less than a couple of months...

In Cambridge the LRT Classic Tour was operated in partnership with Dews Coaches at Somersham. I spent a around a year working on it in the 90s. The Atlantean thrash on the empty journeys to and from the Somersham depot were quite enjoyable!

 

[DunsBus]

Going back to my original post, I’ve realised that I missed an operator that had some operations some way outside of their territory and, rather embarrassingly, one the places was where I’ve lived all my life!

One of the many companies that have operated open-top tours of York was Lothian Region Transport with their Classic Tour. This was in response to Guide Friday setting up in Edinburgh with a Tour and also competing on the 100 Airport service (although I don’t know the order in who set up what up there first). LRT also set up tours in Cambridge & Oxford – in some cases working with a local operator. I believe that in Oxford it was Tappins.

In York, LRT appeared to have started working with another tour operator with the Jorvik Classic Tour. However towards the end of the 1990s, they operated it alone as the York Classic Tour and even won a few school contracts meaning that a number of closed-top Atlanteans were allocated to York complete with LRT York fleet names.

During 1999, LRT gave up their operation in York and some of the vehicles were taken on by a new operator – Yorkbus. Yorkbus started running a few services in city in competition with First York, however the company did not last very long at all – maybe even less than a couple of months...

Even less than that - 32 days.

As I recall Yorkbus was set up by a former LRT manager, Ron House (one of several LRT managers who left when Neil Renilson took over as LRT MD) to continue the school services which LRT had run in York and the competing services were based around them. The school services were all lost on retendering, though, so the decision was taken to go ahead anyway. Just over a month later, it was all over as Yorkbus became Yorkbust. Ironically, its slogan had been "Your money goes further with us".

Its fleet comprised nine Atlanteans - eight X-regs (GSC621-5/54-6X) and a V-reg one (OSC620V). The X-regs comprised the five based in York prior to LRT pulling out and three bought from LRT. The V-reg Atlantean was bought as a spare bus.

 

[northrob]

Even less than that - 32 days.

As I recall Yorkbus was set up by a former LRT manager, Ron House (one of several LRT managers who left when Neil Renilson took over as LRT MD) to continue the school services which LRT had run in York and the competing services were based around them. The school services were all lost on retendering, though, so the decision was taken to go ahead anyway. Just over a month later, it was all over as Yorkbus became Yorkbust. Ironically, its slogan had been "Your money goes further with us".

Its fleet comprised nine Atlanteans - eight X-regs (GSC621-5/54-6X) and a V-reg one (OSC620V). The X-regs comprised the five based in York prior to LRT pulling out and three bought from LRT. The V-reg Atlantean was bought as a spare bus.

32 days - very short and sweet...

Are you able to recall which routes they operated? I think there were two daytime routes, one from the City Centre (Piccadilly) to Chapelfields and another one from Tang Hall to Foxwood (?) via Acomb. The Chapelfields service I think was extended to Ashley Park in peak hours. However, I do remember that one the first day of operation, an error meant that the Ashley Park extension was missing on at least one running board - meaning a bus was sat at the railway station for quite some time before the driver was instructed to go to Piccadilly to resume service...

 

[NBC Soap Oper]

Mainline (aka the continuity South Yorkshire PTE operator) came close to setting off a three-way bus war hundreds of miles away in Ipswich in 1994. They registered some competitive routes against the municipal Ipswich Buses and Eastern Counties (who I think were still independent at the time, not sure exactly when GRT bought them out), and it looked like all hell was about to break loose around the Orwell. Obviously the numbers didn't add up or a back door deal was done as the competitive routes never began and the batch of Volvo B6s which had been bought in readiness were sold directly to Eastern Counties. The legacy was a period of IB and EC sharing Ipswich town services until around 2000/01. Wonder how that agreement was broached, given joint services seems to go against the idea of deregulation!

Also, I do wonder why Mainline thought going after Ipswich was a good idea, it's never been fertile ground for bus wars and Ipswich Buses were in a much stronger position than they are now.

Hi 90s,

I apolgize for writing this reply here - but I sense we know each other (and so far i am having grave difficulty figuring out here's PM System)

I noticed one of your posts on Grange Hill and as a Railway/Transport Fanatic that drew me here as well as the Trains of course

If i am right you was an hostess at one point possibly and you frequented Simon's (RIP) Forum. If I am wrong I am sorry but if i am right you'll know me by two names of the miid 80s characters - too in 1 and 1 combined with a 90s character. Could you PM Me please if so. Thanks (and sorry I don't recall your name) and sorry if this appears freaky but if there was another way (through a PM I would)

Thanks once more

 

[DunsBus]

32 days - very short and sweet...

Are you able to recall which routes they operated? I think there were two daytime routes, one from the City Centre (Piccadilly) to Chapelfields and another one from Tang Hall to Foxwood (?) via Acomb. The Chapelfields service I think was extended to Ashley Park in peak hours. However, I do remember that one the first day of operation, an error meant that the Ashley Park extension was missing on at least one running board - meaning a bus was sat at the railway station for quite some time before the driver was instructed to go to Piccadilly to resume service...

From memory, Piccadily to Chapel Fields was 57 and Tang Hall to Foxwood was 59. There was no disputing the origins of the buses - it was the same livery layout as was used by LRT, but with navy blue in place of madder.

 

[317 forever]

I remember back in the early days that there was a Route in West London operated by Scania ( I think) . Cant remember the route number or Trading name but it was to be used as a testbed for Scania Buses.

I think you mean Scancoaches who ran route 283 in 1986-89 before it was reawarded to LBL London United upon retender.

 

[delt1c]

I think you mean Scancoaches who ran route 283 in 1986-89 before it was reawarded to LBL London United upon retender.

Was many years ago and vaguely remembered it , but was a great test ground for Scania.