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The problem with First Scotland East

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JumpinTrainz

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Last week while in Edinburgh I can’t help but be impressed by Lothian Buses’ fleet. Lots of new fancy new Streetdecks and Volvo examples. Even their older stock is still in pretty good nick considering. Nowhere during this did I see anything older than an 04 plate.

So my questions started here...

What is wrong with First Scotland East?

Firstly it’s obvious Lothian are the bigger and more dominant of the 2 (FSE). But I can’t help but think... even by Glasgow’s standard Lothian excell far more. Why is this? Their buses look cleaner, they have an extremely up to date fleet, their buses are branded and smart looking. Compare this with both FIG and FSE which have older buses running on main stream routes. Their newest buses range from 68 plates down to the oldest as Y plates (but very recently T plates in FSE). Their buses are dirty.

Why do Lothian do it so much better? They order stock to what looks like the highest specks. First seem to always cheap out and go with the lesser ADL stock.

Even out with Edinburgh city and into routes from Falkirk to Glasgow etc.. these are operated by older Scania Solar Exclipses. There seems to be no push to have the fleet fully upgraded and it all seems very half hearted. I get new E400MMCs have made their way to the east however this is very sparing.

Why don’t FSE just cut their losses and leave Lothian to it unless they’re planning to fight back and start providing a proper service. Then they can focus on Glasgow and Aberdeen.

This is purely my opinion but it is very evident that FSE isn’t to the standard it should be.
 
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Gingerbus1991

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First are a nationwide operator where as Lothian can concentrate on Edinburgh alone, Lothians ridership numbers most likely makes FiGs look like childs play, hence lothians superior revenue and profit margins.

Many of the people in Edinburgh seem to bare a personal attachment to there buses this also seems to translate to many as there first mode of transportation in Edinburgh, but those residents in Glasgow, I grew up in glasgow till 2nd year of high school which was some 13/14yrs ago, I remember then the buses being far busier off peak than they are now, but lothians PR team have made a big leap to interact with there customers in a far better way than First group as a whole does, for example, FiG dont have a dedicated team in Glasgow on twitter where as Lothian do.

If you look at Lothians page verses FiGs there is a noticable difference in the way everything is advertised with lothian, everything from introducing there drivers directly on twitter with there name and photo to making a particularly impressive deal about the purchase of there new buses.

FiGs introduction of there new buses through social media and on Georges Square looked very mediocre, not from a company with a multi-million £ value, even FiGs latest fleet look subpar compared to lothians latest.

Other personal touches include lothian using the same destinctive Madder and White livery from the companys inception(outside the harlequin period, East Coast or Country Liveries).

Albeit lothian choosing different colours from there standard on there new ventures is something I really think makes the buses individual to the area they operate.

There are many differences in Glasgow to Edinburgh, alot of Edinburghs City Centre is far busier I find than Glasgows despite Glasgow having a higher population number, Compare Glasgows Barrowland to similar Edinburgh areas and you soon find that shops in Edinburgh as a whole are far better and more extensive and busier, alot of shops in Glasgow and particularly in its suburbs seem to have closed over the years, Edinburghs city centre is far more extensive as well, commercially everywhere from the outskirts of edinburgh like Fort Kinnaird to The Gyle into the likes of Oceon Terminal, Stockbridge and Princes St, theres also a general feel in Edinburgh where there seems to be a general higher level of wealth or expendable money, even in povertised Areas like Clovenstone, Wester Hailes or Niddrie Mains.

The edinburgh economy seems to help push the success of edinburghs buses, compare this to the subpar retail opportunities in Falkirk for instance and you soon get a picture of how the publics shopping and work habits change hence the need for more people to have cars nowadays, albeit I think the purchasing of the motorcar has pushed this.
 
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overthewater

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What on earth are you on about? This isnt 2006, 2010, nor 2016... All the fleet used on First West lothian network is 2014 or newers while route 38 has newest buses aswell? So where are these old buses?

This just sounds like load of hogwash, Lothian are not clearner..
 

Gingerbus1991

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What on earth are you on about? This isnt 2006, 2010, nor 2016... All the fleet used on First West lothian network is 2014 or newers while route 38 has newest buses aswell? So where are these old buses?

This just sounds like load of hogwash, Lothian are not clearner..
Lothian DO have a higher vehicle standard for Cleanliness, I reference FiGs buses when I say this of course.

In reality Lothians B5TL buses on the 22 for instance only cost around £15000 more than FSEs 400 MMCs, this only being down to options that are not standard on the Geminis, like the White Hanover display, Alcoa Alloys, interior Spot Lighting and the extra windows on the Stairs, Roof and Upper A-Pillars, the flooring is made of the same material, its just the pattern thats made to look like wood, YET all these extras are what makes lothians fleet look and feel superior, even though this is only the perceived difference, BUT! this is what normal, everyday Passengers pick up on, they only use there eyes but most wont look at the registration numbers and contemplate how old the vehicle is, even 10yr old vehicles can be goodins if there decorated nicely.
 
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Jordan Adam

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What is wrong with First Scotland East?

Why do Lothian do it so much better? They order stock to what looks like the highest specks. First seem to always cheap out and go with the lesser ADL stock.

Even out with Edinburgh city and into routes from Falkirk to Glasgow etc.. these are operated by older Scania Solar Exclipses. There seems to be no push to have the fleet fully upgraded and it all seems very half hearted. I get new E400MMCs have made their way to the east however this is very sparing.

Why don’t FSE just cut their losses and leave Lothian to it unless they’re planning to fight back and start providing a proper service. Then they can focus on Glasgow and Aberdeen.

This is purely my opinion but it is very evident that FSE isn’t to the standard it should be.

Nothing is wrong with FSE, out of anything they're probably the strongest right now they've ever been under First Group.

ADL being the lesser stock is a pointless argument and pretty subjective with no real right or wrong answer. Although we should mention that currently their build quality is better, aftercare is superior, they're more forward thinking, more customer engaging and so on....

If you look at Lothians page verses FiGs there is a noticable difference in the way everything is advertised with lothian, everything from introducing there drivers directly on twitter with there name and photo to making a particularly impressive deal about the purchase of there new buses.

FiGs introduction of there new buses through social media and on Georges Square looked very mediocre, not from a company with a multi-million £ value, even FiGs latest fleet look subpar compared to lothians latest.

Other personal touches include lothian using the same destinctive Madder and White livery from the companys inception(outside the harlequin period, East Coast or Country Liveries).

Albeit lothian choosing different colours from there standard on there new ventures is something I really think makes the buses individual to the area they operate.

There are many differences in Glasgow to Edinburgh, alot of Edinburghs City Centre is far busier I find than Glasgows despite Glasgow having a higher population number, Compare Glasgows Barrowland to similar Edinburgh areas and you soon find that shops in Edinburgh as a whole are far better and more extensive and busier, alot of shops in Glasgow and particularly in its suburbs seem to have closed over the years, Edinburghs city centre is far more extensive as well, commercially everywhere from the outskirts of edinburgh like Fort Kinnaird to The Gyle into the likes of Oceon Terminal, Stockbridge and Princes St, theres also a general feel in Edinburgh where there seems to be a general higher level of wealth or expendable money, even in povertised Areas like Clovenstone, Wester Hailes or Niddrie Mains.

The edinburgh economy seems to help push the success of edinburghs buses, compare this to the subpar retail opportunities in Falkirk for instance and you soon get a picture of how the publics shopping and work habits change hence the need for more people to have cars nowadays, albeit I think the purchasing of the motorcar has pushed this.

We all know the Lothian PR machine is a mighty force! It's something they're good at and their social media tend to be well informed and quick to respond. Further to that they don't delete negative comments unlike some operators (cough cough Transdev).

I see nothing wrong with the launch for the new vehicles, honestly i think you're just nit picking.

First are trying to encourage local liveries, But a much better effort needs to be made here, Lothian using the same colours has helped, but they wasted money a few years back changing their livery twice within a year.

Edinburgh and Glasgow are two totally different operating environments. Glasgow has a far more extensive rail network and multiple operators. Where as Edinburgh has a smaller rail network, it does have the tram but that covers a small portion of the city, finally it doesn't have any other operators within the city besides Lothian as they were all pushed out in the 00s. Tourism in Edinburgh is also much larger and it's a more wealthy city.

The truth is many people try and compare Edinburgh and Glasgow's bus networks as they're similar in size. But the reality is that they're totally different environments, to some extent it's like comparing the Aberdeen bus network to that of Inverness. First have their issues, we all know. But i think this thread is exaggerating quite a bit, First have invested lots in the FSE fleet in recent years with a decent amount of service improvements.
 
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tbtc

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Nothing is wrong with FSE, out of anything they're probably the strongest right now they've ever been under First Group

True.

The problem with First Scotland East (aka First Edinburgh, First SMT etc etc) really relate to historic reputation.

The current network in West Lothian and Falkirk are about as good as it could be - the Stirling one seems a bit "light".

The current fleet is the best I can remember - given the years of cast-offs from elsewhere in the First fleet - some of the knackered stock dumped on East Lothian/ Midlothian was pretty embarrassing - they limped along with minimal investment.

Now, they are a pretty different beast (partly because they've scaled back so they have very few "secondary" routes now) - they've invested, they've probably got the best fleet of any ex-SBG operation (admittedly the ex-Fife/ Strathtay/ Western/ Highland/ Northern etc operations still have lots of secondary routes where ten/fifteen year old buses are appropriate so it's not an entirely fair comparison, but it shows how far FSE have come).

But reputations last a long time, they are still seen as one of the weaker links in First Group - despite having a significantly better fleet than most areas (outside of the obvious "golden child" status for Leeds and Bristol).

I don't know how First will go in West Lothian - they've not reacted to Lothian, which could mean they are keeping their powder dry on a fightback or could mean that HQ hasn't given them the resources to take Lothian on, so they are just sitting and maintaining for now before they consider whether to give up on some corridors - who knows.

The Falkirk network looks really decent (Bo'ness could get a slightly better service, I'm surprised they've not tried anything from Linlithgow to Bo'ness either, but generally it looks good considering the size of Falkirk and the fact that Falkirk people have easy motorway/rail access to Glasgow/Edinburgh).

Stirling looks kind of ripe for a competitor, given the "town" services that have been scaled back to throw more resources at the high profile University service, but it's not the '90s any longer - you don't have to worry about speculative competition so much nowadays.

I say all this without looking at balance sheets etc, but there are surely areas of FirstGroup that are much bigger problems than the (slim, lean, much retrenched) East Scotland operation (e.g. the smaller towns in Greater Manchester/ West Yorkshire/ South Yorkshire, where traditional town centres are becoming redundant).

(I'm trying to ignore the "my favourite bus manufacturer" arguments etc - there's no point in trying to convince someone that their choice of favourite vehicle is "wrong")
 

Jordan Adam

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True.

The problem with First Scotland East (aka First Edinburgh, First SMT etc etc) really relate to historic reputation.

The current network in West Lothian and Falkirk are about as good as it could be - the Stirling one seems a bit "light".

The current fleet is the best I can remember - given the years of cast-offs from elsewhere in the First fleet - some of the knackered stock dumped on East Lothian/ Midlothian was pretty embarrassing - they limped along with minimal investment.

Now, they are a pretty different beast (partly because they've scaled back so they have very few "secondary" routes now) - they've invested, they've probably got the best fleet of any ex-SBG operation (admittedly the ex-Fife/ Strathtay/ Western/ Highland/ Northern etc operations still have lots of secondary routes where ten/fifteen year old buses are appropriate so it's not an entirely fair comparison, but it shows how far FSE have come).

But reputations last a long time, they are still seen as one of the weaker links in First Group - despite having a significantly better fleet than most areas (outside of the obvious "golden child" status for Leeds and Bristol).

I don't know how First will go in West Lothian - they've not reacted to Lothian, which could mean they are keeping their powder dry on a fightback or could mean that HQ hasn't given them the resources to take Lothian on, so they are just sitting and maintaining for now before they consider whether to give up on some corridors - who knows.

The Falkirk network looks really decent (Bo'ness could get a slightly better service, I'm surprised they've not tried anything from Linlithgow to Bo'ness either, but generally it looks good considering the size of Falkirk and the fact that Falkirk people have easy motorway/rail access to Glasgow/Edinburgh).

Stirling looks kind of ripe for a competitor, given the "town" services that have been scaled back to throw more resources at the high profile University service, but it's not the '90s any longer - you don't have to worry about speculative competition so much nowadays.

I say all this without looking at balance sheets etc, but there are surely areas of FirstGroup that are much bigger problems than the (slim, lean, much retrenched) East Scotland operation (e.g. the smaller towns in Greater Manchester/ West Yorkshire/ South Yorkshire, where traditional town centres are becoming redundant).

(I'm trying to ignore the "my favourite bus manufacturer" arguments etc - there's no point in trying to convince someone that their choice of favourite vehicle is "wrong")

With West Lothian they're about to relaunch the 600 and there's talk of getting additional nearly new stock in, they're standing their ground and doing ok so far, but i suspect change will be coming early next year if they want to win this battle, i'd say they're in a better position than Lothian are at a financial aspect as their services are still bring in profit, Lothian do have the smarter overall fleet, although plagued with unreliability. That said many of the First vehicles are away to be painted in to the much smarter "Urban Look" livery.

The Falkirk network is pretty decent, but i heavily agree with you that more needs to be done within Stirling, but i fear at the same time that the services there are not the most profitable (excluding the UL). In the past FSE never did well in terms of profit, but i believe currently they have one of the highest profit margins within the group.

I agree with you about the "my favourite bus manufacturer" arguments, we all have our opinions, and it's a totally subjective matter with no real right or wrong answer.
 

Observer

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No such thing as T-plates now and it has not been the case for years due to DDA coming in, the only Y-plates I'm aware of is a Volvo decker usually stuck on schools and an Optare Solo.
True.
The Falkirk network looks really decent (Bo'ness could get a slightly better service, I'm surprised they've not tried anything from Linlithgow to Bo'ness either, but generally it looks good considering the size of Falkirk and the fact that Falkirk people have easy motorway/rail access to Glasgow/Edinburgh).
Linlithgow to Bo'ness is tendered by the council as it's not financially viable. First run the F45 evenings and Sundays as well as the F49 whilst Prentice Westwood run the 45 and 46 during the day.
 

Gingerbus1991

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Give it a few years and we will see who the winners are, that will be the only way in this FSE verses Lothian discussion/other topics/argument.

However, First beyond any shadow of a doubt between alot of us know that they pulled from East Lothian, Cumbernauld and have withdrawn on the 60 service in stirling, I’m sure many others have been withdrawn elsewhere as well, forgetting about others in the future as well, First have “Group” reputation for fleeing when the fight get too much for there financial directors and shareholders in many areas, its just fact.
It can’t be denied that lothian are overall in a strong way forward when you see the success theyve had in East lothian over what First Edinburgh were unsuccessful with.

I don’t actually proclaim to be a Lothian company-man not have I ever supported Stagecoach or First even when I worked for them, but I take a stance that as said above if things are not right from the start and that reputation isn't maintained to a good level, sooner or later it will fail as a business model, something Lothian have yet to do in my awarenes but something that first and stagey have done time and time again.

First Aberdeen seemingly not being able to keep a driver happy enough, ending in strike action, I admit I do not know why Aberdeen City Council believe they should take back control of the buses in Aberdeen, as I’ve read a few times through the news online or on paper, do Aberdeen CC feel that first provide a mediocre service?
The biggest opinion of weegie residents regarding FiG do not see drivers as good at what they do and do not actual See FiG as being something thats valued as “There” buses, yes, its partly because there are so many operators in Glasgow, adding to that dull reputation in that area at least.

What the “Passengers believe, see and have too pay for a good quality of service” is the sole reason why lothian are out on top compared to any First Subsidiary in the whole of scotland, many others below the border like Reading Buses, Nottingham City Transport and Transdev all have these Customer relations issues sorted, whether that be information, P.R, cost or quality.

I even recall on social media more people from glasgow taking note that they”ve seen lothians deckers during the Bike Racing shuttling efforts, something that isnt a novelty in Edinburgh of course, but even an understanding of lothians good rep is understood in glasgow and something that a few glasgow residents will know of

I suppose deep down First feel, to me, that they are tired and wornout with nothing left to offer of anything substantial towards the public.
 

Jordan Adam

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I admit I do not know why Aberdeen City Council believe they should take back control of the buses in Aberdeen, as I’ve read a few times through the news online or on paper, do Aberdeen CC feel that first provide a mediocre service?

ACC only have their self to blame! The first noticeable cuts to services were in 2001 after they dropped all funding to all bus services in the city, mixed with a real lack of bus priority and a underfunded Park & Ride scheme we get to where we are now. Aberdeen's public transport system is pretty good in reality, but Aberdonian's always have this view that everything here is the worst and the most expensive, this applies to not just public transport.

ACC running any buses in public service is a pretty scary thought considering their appalling maintenance record and unlikely to happen anytime soon. Although this is off topic for here!
 

Jordan Adam

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many others below the border like Reading Buses, Nottingham City Transport and Transdev all have these Customer relations issues sorted, whether that be information, P.R, cost or quality.
.

Transdev! The company that blocks anyone who doesn't say anything good about them. I'd probably say Transdev are in bigger troubles currently than any of the First divisions in Scotland!
 

LiviCrazy

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Give it a few years and we will see who the winners are, that will be the only way in this FSE verses Lothian discussion/other topics/argument.

However, First beyond any shadow of a doubt between alot of us know that they pulled from East Lothian, Cumbernauld and have withdrawn on the 60 service in stirling, I’m sure many others have been withdrawn elsewhere as well, forgetting about others in the future as well, First have “Group” reputation for fleeing when the fight get too much for there financial directors and shareholders in many areas, its just fact.
It can’t be denied that lothian are overall in a strong way forward when you see the success theyve had in East lothian over what First Edinburgh were unsuccessful with.

I don’t actually proclaim to be a Lothian company-man not have I ever supported Stagecoach or First even when I worked for them, but I take a stance that as said above if things are not right from the start and that reputation isn't maintained to a good level, sooner or later it will fail as a business model, something Lothian have yet to do in my awarenes but something that first and stagey have done time and time again.

First Aberdeen seemingly not being able to keep a driver happy enough, ending in strike action, I admit I do not know why Aberdeen City Council believe they should take back control of the buses in Aberdeen, as I’ve read a few times through the news online or on paper, do Aberdeen CC feel that first provide a mediocre service?
The biggest opinion of weegie residents regarding FiG do not see drivers as good at what they do and do not actual See FiG as being something thats valued as “There” buses, yes, its partly because there are so many operators in Glasgow, adding to that dull reputation in that area at least.

What the “Passengers believe, see and have too pay for a good quality of service” is the sole reason why lothian are out on top compared to any First Subsidiary in the whole of scotland, many others below the border like Reading Buses, Nottingham City Transport and Transdev all have these Customer relations issues sorted, whether that be information, P.R, cost or quality.

I even recall on social media more people from glasgow taking note that they”ve seen lothians deckers during the Bike Racing shuttling efforts, something that isnt a novelty in Edinburgh of course, but even an understanding of lothians good rep is understood in glasgow and something that a few glasgow residents will know of

I suppose deep down First feel, to me, that they are tired and wornout with nothing left to offer of anything substantial towards the public.
Have Lothian really been that much more successful on East Lothian though? The losses for the last two years have been around £500k a year pre-tax according to their company accounts.

The extremely busy loads seem to be more as a result of them pulling some of their own Lothian Bus routes from the same areas. I know quite a few colleagues that travelled on Lothian from the likes of Musselburgh but now have to use the East Coast equivalent.

When they’ve actually come out to fight against First in the established area they aren’t doing well. I’ve never yet seen the 275 with more than a handful of passengers. The X27/X28 are pretty quiet, especially at peak time in comparison to the First services. I haven’t seen enough of their other two routes to see them.

I’ve even noticed an increase recently in people in the city getting on First, taking advantage of their cheaper city fare.

Lothian haven’t really taken competition to anyone for years, so it’s always been hard to compare.

They also may have newer buses, but the ones running the LCB are very underpowered. The First Enviro 400 MMCs are well powered for hammering along the A8 and A71, more than holding their own against the rest of the traffic. I took a LCB into town a few weeks ago and the engine was so overworked with the hills through Kirknewton and along the A71 it was incredibly noisy.
 

jb66

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LOTHIAN is partly owned by the council so I suspect can invest more in the fleet
 

overthewater

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We all know what there are used for... School contracts.

Stirling is the only depot that does seem to have problems, with all the cuts and the amount of competition it has to deal with, it been like that for years. The cuts in Clackmannanshire does not help against Mackie's so its never ending battle, while Fallin is control by that small company doing the 55s, with the woman driver.

Falkirk is having a REAL battle now with even more shops closing down in the high street including new look and burton, which won't help first.
 

In Focus

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I don't know how First will go in West Lothian - they've not reacted to Lothian, which could mean they are keeping their powder dry on a fightback or could mean that HQ hasn't given them the resources to take Lothian on, so they are just sitting and maintaining for now before they consider whether to give up on some corridors - who knows.
They won't be giving up on any corridors .
Resources have been made available.
Driver numbers need to go up and that's being addressed so more vehicles can be put into service.
Services going back into St johns will happen.
Expect a "special" surprise on tickets soon as part of competition for passengers in run up to Xmas.
Be foolish to think First are not pro active in how they plan to react to LCB aggressive attempts to take over West Lothian .
 

overthewater

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hopeful the mini darts will get put on the 27 to free up bigger single deckers for other routes. Im lead to believe first will operate the xmas services this year aswell, mind you would LCB waste its time with commercial boxing day service?
 

Stan Drews

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Transdev! The company that blocks anyone who doesn't say anything good about them. I'd probably say Transdev are in bigger troubles currently than any of the First divisions in Scotland!

If you look through the Transdev twitter accounts there are plenty of tweets from people complaining about late/missing buses. The difference with Transdev (and the other coys mentioned), is that they generally deal with such complaints in a positive manner. I’ve no idea what big trouble you think they are in, as it seems to be one of the better run companies around the country.
 

tbtc

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They won't be giving up on any corridors .
Resources have been made available.
Driver numbers need to go up and that's being addressed so more vehicles can be put into service.
Services going back into St johns will happen.
Expect a "special" surprise on tickets soon as part of competition for passengers in run up to Xmas.
Be foolish to think First are not pro active in how they plan to react to LCB aggressive attempts to take over West Lothian .

I don't claim any insider information, I'm just waiting to see how First respond - in some parts of the country where they've been attacked, they've rolled over (or tried to sell up quickly)... in other parts of the country they've put up a fight. In West Lothian, they've not responded to three sets of new services from Lothian, so it's not yet obvious to the public.

Maybe the "old" First would have started trimming back services by now and preparing to move the younger buses to Glasgow/ Aberdeen instead, but they seem to have turned a corner. Seem to.

It'll be a lot harder for them to muscle into Edinburgh now than it was in 2001 though - so any "fightback" may be a bit more limited.
 

Volvodart

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If Lothian are not doing that well, there is maybe no urgent need to do anything immediately, as has been said, they need drivers firstly.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I don't claim any insider information, I'm just waiting to see how First respond - in some parts of the country where they've been attacked, they've rolled over (or tried to sell up quickly)... in other parts of the country they've put up a fight. In West Lothian, they've not responded to three sets of new services from Lothian, so it's not yet obvious to the public.

Maybe the "old" First would have started trimming back services by now and preparing to move the younger buses to Glasgow/ Aberdeen instead, but they seem to have turned a corner. Seem to.

It'll be a lot harder for them to muscle into Edinburgh now than it was in 2001 though - so any "fightback" may be a bit more limited.

It's interesting to see how First will react. They have had a reputation for sitting on their hands back in the Moir days, and indeed, that allowed competitors to get in and set up a bridgehead. There have been some more recent closures though such as Plymouth and Bracknell though, in reality, the damage was already done. Plymouth was a basket case whilst Bracknell could just about survive but once they lost the council tenders to Courtney, that was really it.

Look at other areas and see how they've faired. In Cornwall, they pushed out Western Greyhound, Somerset saw Webberbus dissolve into evermore greater stupidity, they've pushed Rotala out of Bristol and Bath, and in East Anglia (not an area I know well), they appear to have done a bit of a job on the Go Ahead subsidiaries with Anglian now subsumed into Konect and Hedingham, whilst gaining in Clacton, being pressured around Colchester. Quite a bit of that has been not from major incursions, but from simply ramping up services against the incumbents.

It does look like with West Lothian, they are looking to dig in and try to starve LCB from the off. It'll be interesting to see how they get on though there and the increased activity from Bluestar in Southampton. An important caveat on the above - these were much weaker competitors than Lothian or GSC.
 

90sWereBetter

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in East Anglia (not an area I know well), they appear to have done a bit of a job on the Go Ahead subsidiaries with Anglian now subsumed into Konect

First have played the game brilliantly the last couple of years against KonectBus. The success of the Charcoal Line has pretty much killed off the 87 and 88 in Poringland and Bungay, which is staggering given that was Anglian's bread and butter corridor for years. Meanwhile, the Red Line has easily seen off Konect's 5 Series on the Dereham Road, which Konect launched to some fanfare in 2017 and it just hasn't succeeded.

The only places where Konect and First compete now is the Yarmouth Road and down to Mulbarton (no-one seems to know why Go-Ahead went after the Mulbarton corridor, it's hardly the busiest route in the city).
 

Towielad

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If you look through the Transdev twitter accounts there are plenty of tweets from people complaining about late/missing buses. The difference with Transdev (and the other coys mentioned), is that they generally deal with such complaints in a positive manner. I’ve no idea what big trouble you think they are in, as it seems to be one of the better run companies around the country.

You’re not wrong hardly a day goes past without cancellations on coastliner services here in Yorkshire, a few years ago that would be unheard of.

The general mood amongst all depots across the business is not one of great optimism they seem to be all hype while behind the scenes it’s a daily struggle to make service.
 

VioletEclipse

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I don't claim any insider information, I'm just waiting to see how First respond - in some parts of the country where they've been attacked, they've rolled over (or tried to sell up quickly)... in other parts of the country they've put up a fight. In West Lothian, they've not responded to three sets of new services from Lothian, so it's not yet obvious to the public.

Maybe the "old" First would have started trimming back services by now and preparing to move the younger buses to Glasgow/ Aberdeen instead, but they seem to have turned a corner. Seem to.

It'll be a lot harder for them to muscle into Edinburgh now than it was in 2001 though - so any "fightback" may be a bit more limited.
First have been being pushed westwards so far in the last two years, losing East Lothian and Borders, and Lothian are strong enough that First will never get any further east than they are now, and while First could hike up competition and get rid of Lothian Country as it is now. My guess is that if Lothian Country get any bigger then First may get scared about potentially losing their very last services in Edinburgh and the Lothians, so they might try to save their West Lothian services.
 

Gingerbus1991

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30 Jul 2018
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First have been being pushed westwards so far in the last two years, losing East Lothian and Borders, and Lothian are strong enough that First will never get any further east than they are now, and while First could hike up competition and get rid of Lothian Country as it is now. My guess is that if Lothian Country get any bigger then First may get scared about potentially losing their very last services in Edinburgh and the Lothians, so they might try to save their West Lothian services.
I said it before and I'd say it many more times, First are a slowly dying breed in Scotland.
 

Jordan Adam

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I said it before and I'd say it many more times, First are a slowly dying breed in Scotland.

I'll let you believe your inaccurate opinion... But i'd argue First are much stronger within Scotland now.

First have been being pushed westwards so far in the last two years, losing East Lothian and Borders, and Lothian are strong enough that First will never get any further east than they are now, and while First could hike up competition and get rid of Lothian Country as it is now. My guess is that if Lothian Country get any bigger then First may get scared about potentially losing their very last services in Edinburgh and the Lothians, so they might try to save their West Lothian services.

You need to keep in mind that West Lothian is profitable, where as East Lothian and Borders were not.
 

Driver362

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12 Aug 2018
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296
Jordan,can I ask the source of your information that allows you your believe in fse ? Don't get me wrong it's admirable and you make some good points ,I'm just curious
 

In Focus

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615
Fantastic picture for press release .
 

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