The Rational Rants Episode 2: Mallard Haters Unite!

[Nick]

Mark 1 coach suspension rides better than Mark 3 coach suspension at speed, BR conducted tests in the 80's or 90's, Mark 3's were better below about 45mph, when Mark 1's got the upper hand.

Which type of Bogie on the Mk1?

 

[Techniquest]

Well said that man!!

Last time I came back from Edinburgh I took a Mallard to Newcastle and a HST back to Kings Cross in First Class and I have to say the Mallard won hands down. The fixtures in the MkIII carriage rattled, the springs had gone in the seats, the lamp didn't work and neither did the phone charger yet the Mallard was very comfortable, very quiet and everything that was there worked.





Exactly!!

The interiors on both Voyagers and Pendolinos are appauling and I have to say they are the worst interiors on any long distance trains I have ever travelled on and from my persective ones to avoid where at all possible.



Is it?

I am from the South and I like the Mallards

I did say 'generally'. I knew there would be exceptions...

Give me a hellfire HST over a Mallard any day. Give me a Eurostar even...Pity they're gone from the ECML...

 

[bunnahabhain]

Which type of Bogie on the Mk1?

The Commonwealth and BR4 bogies both ride quite well.

So Nick, did you manage to get the correct doors from Booths for a Mk1 coach?

 

[Tom C]

Give me a hellfire HST over a Mallard any day.

Why?

(could someone tell me what Hellfire means......or provide some sort of list with all these terms like "ching", "hellfire" etc etc.......must admit that being an enthusiast in the 80's and 90's didn't have any of this garnish, it was a good train, a bad train or a kettle and that was that..)

Give me a Eurostar even...Pity they're gone from the ECML...

Eurostar units are very nice, especially in First Class.....having a glass of champagne whilst wafting through to Paris is very nice.

 

[Techniquest]

You were a spotter in the 80s and you've never heard of 'hellfire'? Shocking.

'Hellfire' describes the sound, performance and clag off a loco/unit. And yes, units can be described as 'hellfire', as can steam locos!

As for drinking champagne in FC on a 373, you're making me envious...A nice Guiness Draught, nice and cold, in a proper glass would do me!

 

[bunnahabhain]

You were a spotter in the 80s and you've never heard of 'hellfire'? Shocking.

By golly old chap I just dropped my cracker, I'm so shocked!

I do believe old boy that the word, 'chav', was not around in the olden days, shocking really.


Plus back when boys were boys and men were men, silly little words were not needed, people had one of those mystical conversations, I remember watching a documentory on what a conversation actually is on the History Channel, fascinating!

 

[Tom C]

You were a spotter in the 80s and you've never heard of 'hellfire'? Shocking.

No

By golly old chap I just dropped my cracker, I'm so shocked!

I do believe old boy that the word, 'chav', was not around in the olden days, shocking really.


Plus back when boys were boys and men were men, silly little words were not needed, people had one of those mystical conversations, I remember watching a documentory on what a conversation actually is on the History Channel, fascinating!

Well I was born into a small slum just outside Port Elizabeth, South Africa then moved to the slums of South London so being portrayed as a toff is a little ignorant.

I was actually being serious.

I was an enthusiast for many years in this neck of the woods and I was in a small circle of likeminded people who liked trains. Example of which is "clag" never knew that what I knew as exhaust from a diesel train......call me posh or a toff but that is just the way it is........perhaps I was in the wrong crowd.

I did ask Yorkie to explain what "ching from a desperate gripper" was....... Alex S told me that it was an "over-enthusiast fare collector"........when I was an enthusiast they were just known as tossers obviously times change.

It was a genuine question and didn't need such a sarcastic reply.

By the way..........the First Class thing on Eurostar is actually a perk of working for the railways........... you can go at a hugely discounted price after a years service on the railway.

 

[Craig]

Last time I came back from Edinburgh I took a Mallard to Newcastle and a HST back to Kings Cross in First Class and I have to say the Mallard won hands down. The fixtures in the MkIII carriage rattled, the springs had gone in the seats, the lamp didn't work and neither did the phone charger yet the Mallard was very comfortable, very quiet and everything that was there worked.

My point exactly. I'd class myself as a passenger first and an enthusiast* second. So when travelling I'm usually more concerned about getting from A to B in the quickest possible time with a bit comfort rather than wetting myself over the type of train.

I've recently travelled on both types of train, Newcastle to London on a Mallard and Newcastle to Aberdeen on an HST. Both trains were comfortable, but the Mallard was definitely better due to the points that Tom has mentioned above. That said the HSTs are a bit past it now so it's not a fair comparison. As I said earlier, it'll be interesting to see what the refurbishment is like on them.

* - I reluctantly say enthusiast as the term has a lot of negative connotations that I'd rather not be associated with.

I am from the South and I like the Mallards

Mallard lover!

 

[devon_metro]

So when travelling I'm usually more concerned about getting from A to B in the quickest possible time with a bit comfort rather than wetting myself over the type of train.

I'm sure most people are, although i expect that a lot of people would rather travel on an HST than a voyager. The level of comfort is quite different. And i do not rate Voyagers for long distance journeys. But that does not mean that i would not travel on a voyager *if* they were comfortable. There are certain trains come peopl despise, and in WSXFans case this is clearly the Mallards

In my case those ghastly 150s.

 

[bunnahabhain]

being portrayed as a toff is a little ignorant.

That was aimed at Julian, though I am sorry for any offence caused to you.

 

[Nick]

The Commonwealth and BR4 bogies both ride quite well.

Yea I know that, so do most people, thats why BR standardised the Mk1s to B4, what you havent said though is what bogie is superior to the Mk3 bogie decided by BR as you had earlier said you knew. Instead you have just talked about how coil sprung suspension is better than leaf sprung something everyone knows.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Yea I know that

You mean Ronnie knows that?

so do most people

No, they dont, that's a stupid assumption to make.

thats why BR standardised the Mk1s to B4

Wrong, if they standardised them all to B4 bogies, how on earth did Commonwealth and B1 bogies survive into preservation? There were a number of design changes, the B1 was replaced by the Commonwealth because it had a tendancy to ride up over the flange at high speed (over 90mph), hence the reason why B1 bogies were limited to 90mph. They were replaced by the Commonwealth which is, in terms of maintenance, the best bogie that the Mk1's carried, due to being able to see everything from a trackside level, the ride quality given by a Commonwealth bogie is akin to that given by a B4 bogie, but is not as smooth riding as a B4 bogie. The B4 bogie was designed to provide a smoother ride at higher speeds, indeed the bogie was passed for 110mph running, however this was rarely used by British Rail on the Mk1 design of coaches.

what you havent said though is what bogie is superior to the Mk3 bogie decided by BR as you had earlier said you knew.

The B1 bogie was not tested. However the ride quality given by a B1 bogie at 60mph and above is relatively smooth and comparible to the ride given by a Mark 3 coach (I dont do Mark 3's).

The Commonwealth and B4 bogie types were both tested and the ride quality was considerably lower than that given by a Mark 3 coach below around 45mph, however once the coaches were running above 45mph the ride quality began to surpass the Mark 3 build, and at 100mph the ride given was vastly superior than a Mark 3 at a similar speed.

When you next ride on a Mark 3 (3, 3A or 3B, doesnt matter which), I advise you to stand near a vestible and watch how the train sways considerably at speed, and if you ever get the chance to do so on a Mark 1, or even Mark 2 design (B4 bogie was used on both types), do the same, and you'll notice considerably less swaying from the Mark 1/2 than the Mark 3.

Instead you have just talked about how coil sprung suspension is better than leaf sprung something everyone knows.

The first mention of helical spring and semi-elliptical (right spelling?) types was made by the person registered as 'Nick'.



So Nick, have you found the mythical right side hinged Mark 1 passenger door yet?

 

[Nick]

You mean Ronnie knows that?

No. I'm not Ronnie so I don't know if he knows that, but I suspect he does. I have both read this and experienced it for myself the difference in ride quality of the bogies. And just because I speak to Ronnie and learn some things, like what you do doesn't mean all my information comes from him.

No, they dont, that's a stupid assumption to make.

How is it stupid? Most people think that the newer the coach or bogie, the better it is, which is correct in the case of the Mk1.

Wrong, if they standardised them all to B4 bogies, how on earth did Commonwealth and B1 bogies survive into preservation? There were a number of design changes, the B1 was replaced by the Commonwealth because it had a tendancy to ride up over the flange at high speed (over 90mph), hence the reason why B1 bogies were limited to 90mph. They were replaced by the Commonwealth which is, in terms of maintenance, the best bogie that the Mk1's carried, due to being able to see everything from a trackside level, the ride quality given by a Commonwealth bogie is akin to that given by a B4 bogie, but is not as smooth riding as a B4 bogie. The B4 bogie was designed to provide a smoother ride at higher speeds, indeed the bogie was passed for 110mph running, however this was rarely used by British Rail on the Mk1 design of coaches.

The B1 bogie was not tested. However the ride quality given by a B1 bogie at 60mph and above is relatively smooth and comparible to the ride given by a Mark 3 coach (I dont do Mark 3's).

The Commonwealth and B4 bogie types were both tested and the ride quality was considerably lower than that given by a Mark 3 coach below around 45mph, however once the coaches were running above 45mph the ride quality began to surpass the Mark 3 build, and at 100mph the ride given was vastly superior than a Mark 3 at a similar speed.

When you next ride on a Mark 3 (3, 3A or 3B, doesnt matter which), I advise you to stand near a vestible and watch how the train sways considerably at speed, and if you ever get the chance to do so on a Mark 1, or even Mark 2 design (B4 bogie was used on both types), do the same, and you'll notice considerably less swaying from the Mark 1/2 than the Mark 3.

At last, after trying to make fun of me at every point possible I have an answer.

So Nick, have you found the mythical right side hinged Mark 1 passenger door yet?

Yep, all Mk1 doors are the same both sides. Which I discovered at Booths thanks to Ronnie indeed.

One leaving comment I will say is, ever since I have blocked you on MSN you seem to be incredibly vicious in responding to my posts. The same could be said about you and Jolly, or indeed you and currently Steven Chapple.

Why do you always make problems with people when they go off you? Perhaps it's something about you that sends these people away rather than those people?

 

[Guinness]

On a more brighter note it's not extremely hot anymore.

 

[AlexS]

Appears to have veered hopelessly off course, and a fairly silly topic anyway.

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