The state of Northerns stock

[yorksrob]

I don't generally find Northern's trains particularly dirty. The tend to start off fairly clean then attract litter over the day, like most places.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Your location suggests you've been encountering G4S staff in Northern uniforms; they've barely got a brain cell between them and can't tell a ticket from their own backside.

Northern Guards however are some of the best in the business.

Thankyou! The majority of us do our best

 

[PR1Berske]

I doubt Northern care. Anyone who works for Northern clearly don't, any criticism is just met with shrugged-shoulders.

If they could, Northern's bosses wouldn't run any trains at all.

Pathetic company, pathetic trains, pathetic service, and it's pathetic that their franchise is allowed to continue while long suffering passengers are treated like damaged goods.

 

[Yew]

It doesn't help that we seem to be getting 'unrefurbished' and 'unclean' confused.


And also, I think emt have refurbished one of their ex northern 156's. The one I'm on ATM has the shiniest coat of paint ever, the seats look almost brand new, and if has the northern styl e lighting grill in the saloon, (think lots of semicircles)

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I doubt Northern care. Anyone who works for Northern clearly don't, any criticism is just met with shrugged-shoulders.

If they could, Northern's bosses wouldn't run any trains at all.

Pathetic company, pathetic trains, pathetic service, and it's pathetic that their franchise is allowed to continue while long suffering passengers are treated like damaged goods.

Excuse Me? Myself and the vast majority of my colleagues do care, but what are we supposed to do? We do our very best with some of the oldest stock in the country, seems you have an axe to grind with Northern or its staff.

 

[driver9000]

I doubt Northern care. Anyone who works for Northern clearly don't, any criticism is just met with shrugged-shoulders.

If they could, Northern's bosses wouldn't run any trains at all.

Pathetic company, pathetic trains, pathetic service, and it's pathetic that their franchise is allowed to continue while long suffering passengers are treated like damaged goods.

A bit harsh to tar all with same brush, a lot of Northern staff do care and do try to the best with tools given to do the job. Yes, things could improve with cleanliness but to say the staff don't care is, in my view wrong.

Have you raised your complaints with Northern?

 

[wintonian]

A bit harsh to tar all with same brush, a lot of Northern staff do care and do try to the best with tools given to do the job. Yes, things could improve with cleanliness but to say the staff don't care is, in my view wrong.

Have you raised your complaints with Northern?

Northern may or may care about their trains but as I have alluded to they do have some great guards, I can't really comment on the barrier staff as I just flash my rover and I'm through.

The question I'm looking at is why do northern a, not.seem to clean their trains like other TOC'S and why have they not been refurbished?

One tends to think of these questions when they are on a 156 that has mold growing on the inside of the Windows and areas with a damp problem.

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[Solent&Wessex]

I have the misfortune to travel on Northern's trains on a variety of routes on a regular basis. Whilst it is true that they do have some "nice" trains with clean and well maintained interiors, sadly it is also true that the vast majority of Northern's stock is quite disgusting.

Forgetting pacers for one minute, all of the 158s are very tatty, filthy inside and out and have disgustingly tatty and smelly toilets - even when clean. The various cheap refurb jobs have produced a variety of different seat cushions with ill fitting and badly installed seat covers, many of which are coming off. The carpets (what remains of them) are threadbare and in places the floor underneath can be seen. Some of the carpets are central, some wales and west, and some still regional railways. Compared to the refurb jobs on other TOCs units, they are a disgrace. Oh yes and most of the air con is defective.

The 156s which were once nice trains are also disgusting, although they have started a bit of a refurb job on them recently and the refurbished ones aren't too bad - at the moment.

As Northern's cleaning standards are virtually non existent and just seem to involve a litter pick and that is it (even overnight) then it won't be long till they are horrible too. I have not been on one 156 with working heating for a year or so.

The 333's whilst relatively new are getting in need of a freshen up, but overall aren't too bad.

The 150s vary considerably. The ex LM 150's are significantly and noticeably cleaner and in better condition than the Northern 150s. Despite the fact the ex LM units retain their original brown interior and old floor, and in many cases their central seats, they are overall far nicer to travel on - you stand less chance of soiling your clothes on them.

The 144s are quite clean and well looked after. In general the 142s are not, although the ones which have returned from FGW and still retain their FGW seats are noticeably cleaner and better maintained overall.

There are a number of reasons for this. Firstly the quality of overnight cleaning at many locations is poor. This means that trains enter service already a bit dirty. Over time this builds up and they just look tatty no matter what time of the day it is. Secondly The refurb jobs that most units have had is a cheap and cheerful one mainly consisting of poorly fitted seat covers which fall off and look tatty. Nothing else has really been touched. Many units have not been touched throughout the life of the franchise and are very tired indeed. Thirdly, maintenance standards of cosmetic items seem poor and many things seem bodged.

While it is true that many of the trains are old, that is no excuse. Old trains can be just as clean and presentable as newer trains if they get the right treatment. I find it is often better to avoid sitting too close to the walls or putting feat underneath seats as you can quite easily end up soiling your clothes.

 

[driver9000]

The question I'm looking at is why do northern a, not.seem to clean their trains like other TOC'S and why have they not been refurbished?

One tends to think of these questions when they are on a 156 that has mold growing on the inside of the Windows and areas with a damp problem.

I think its down to the franchise agreements - it called for no investment and no growth, there was no requirement to refurbish trains like other TOCs have done. Some of the former NW 156s have been tidied up with new carpet, new seat covers and a deep clean - they do look good when clean. A similar refresh was done to the 158s. External and internal cleanliness could, and should be better but I'm not sure of the reasons behind this slipping.

 

[David]

Pathetic company, pathetic trains, pathetic service, and it's pathetic that their franchise is allowed to continue while long suffering passengers are treated like damaged goods.

Don't blame the managment for that, the franchise was let on a zero growth basis. Each and every carriage they get from another franchise is over and above their franchise commitment. Same for any extra services they have started running since the franchise was let.

 

[WestCoast]

I quote Theresa Villiers:

Now I know that talking about rolling stock in the north of England can be risky if you’re the rail minister.

"I know that many passengers would like to see the Pacers heading into retirement.

But you here in this room will know that building a business case for new rolling stock is always going to be difficult when fares in much of the north of England lag so very far behind the rest of the country."

Northern PTE fares are on a par with London Midland PTE fares yet LM get new stock aplenty. Northern non-PTE fares are on a par with Southeastern's standard fares, yet they get new stock aplenty.

I know and it's an absolutely pathetic excuse. Ms Villiers can examine how much I pay for rail fares in Lancashire, and they certainly do not "lag so very far behind the rest of the country"! Anyway, I am sorry but in my opinion it shouldn't be an excuse at all and it proves that the railways are not seen as a "public service" in this country. In fact, the attitude to provincial public transport doesn't seem to be improving.

I realise the grass isn't always greener, but does the Government of the Netherlands (Abellio's home market), for example, think "the Eastern part of the country is generally less wealthy and has lower fares (as a direct result!), so we'll give NS the old cast-offs to operate there". No, of course they don't!

Pathetic company, pathetic trains, pathetic service, and it's pathetic that their franchise is allowed to continue while long suffering passengers are treated like damaged goods.

Last time you said it was "the atmosphere" on Northern services, whatever that's supposed to mean?!

I am a Northern commuter and I don't feel like "damaged goods". The on-train staff are generally extremely competent and often friendly and chatty as well. Most of Northern's ticket office staff I've come across have been great - helpful and easy going. I won't comment on G4S, they are well documented.

I've also come across some rather snappy Virgin ticket office staff in Preston lately (only a few mind and there's bad apples everywhere) including one who was really rude when I asked for claim form snapping "which company DO YOU WANT, there's so many you know???!". Another one who claimed that a rover didn't exist and became very defensive when I suggested he asked someone else. Although, having said that, Virgin's on-train staff are usually impressive.

 

[387star]

Northerns franchise ends next year? Will it be extended to incorporate TPE in 2014 (ish) or is this still not known? Very busy for franchise changes next year! East Coast, FGW, C2C and FCC oh and Virgin this year!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Still seems foolish so many franchises were scheduled to end at the same time. Surely this was thought through?

 

[wintonian]

It does seem a bit odd to NT and TPE seem son intwined, like I'm off aNT onto a TPE and back onto NT, perhaps they should be 1 franchise then if First get it we will have clean refurbished trains.

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[YorkshireBear]

Some very harsh and uncalled for criticism of northerns staff coming up here. I think you need to think who causes the problem before you start slagging off their frontline staff. Who in my opinion are the best in the country.

 

[387star]

It does seem a bit odd to NT and TPE seem son intwined, like I'm off aNT onto a TPE and back onto NT, perhaps they should be 1 franchise then if First get it we will have clean refurbished trains.

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I agree. For all the criticism First do seem to refurbish their trains well. Unlike National Express I struggle to think of trains in their hands which haven't been refurbished... and to a good standard as well. Of course this may simply be a coincidence and connected with ROSCO management and franchise terms

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

Stock=Horrible. The state of the Pacers that operate Blackpool-Colne are out of order, and the stock for Blackpool-York isn't suited for a long-distance journey like that nearly 3 hour trip.
Ticket inspectors=Fire them. At Preston one wouldn't even let me check the stops of a train, until I managed to persuade him. I'm not going trainspotting there, for certain. (The ex-Central Trains was cool though, you could get good views from WHSmith/Platform 4) They're just blockades and fail to maintain control. I cannot wait until a massive football match with PNE vs a team which would use Platforms 1 and 2.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Stock=Horrible. The state of the Pacers that operate Blackpool-Colne are out of order, and the stock for Blackpool-York isn't suited for a long-distance journey like that nearly 3 hour trip.
Ticket inspectors=Fire them. At Preston one wouldn't even let me check the stops of a train, until I managed to persuade him. I'm not going trainspotting there, for certain. (The ex-Central Trains was cool though, you could get good views from WHSmith/Platform 4) They're just blockades and fail to maintain control. I cannot wait until a massive football match with PNE vs a team which would use Platforms 1 and 2.

158s are far and away the best long-distance stock Northern have! Also, what would you like Northern to do about it? All they can do is ask the DfT, otherwise it is totally beyond their control.

Ex-Central Trains what?

Don't worry about PNE - a) they never have big games and b) I'm sure special arrangements can be made if there is mass volumes of traffic for football matches to be dealt with.

 

[Lampshade]

Stock=Horrible. The state of the Pacers that operate Blackpool-Colne are out of order, and the stock for Blackpool-York isn't suited for a long-distance journey like that nearly 3 hour trip.

I've done Preston - York many times on the 158s, they're fine for that route - provided the 3-car units are used as they should be, and not put on the Grand Tour leaving the Blackpool services short formed.

Ticket inspectors=Fire them. At Preston one wouldn't even let me check the stops of a train, until I managed to persuade him. I'm not going trainspotting there, for certain. (The ex-Central Trains was cool though, you could get good views from WHSmith/Platform 4) They're just blockades and fail to maintain control. I cannot wait until a massive football match with PNE vs a team which would use Platforms 1 and 2.

Use the subway?

 

[WestCoast]

Stock=Horrible. The state of the Pacers that operate Blackpool-Colne are out of order, and the stock for Blackpool-York isn't suited for a long-distance journey like that nearly 3 hour trip..

Pacers, fair enough, but surely a 158 is ideal for an InterRegional route like Blackpool - York? I bet many would argue they are more comfortable than 185s on long-distance journeys. If it had a trolley service, it would be an excellent service.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

The subway's at the other end of the station!
I think the 180s are better but 185s would be amazing on the Caldervale!
158s are good, mind me.
There's an ex-Central Trains operating with Northern AFAIK. It's green with yellow doors and that's what I heard.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The subway's at the other end of the station!
I think the 180s are better but 185s would be amazing on the Caldervale!
158s are good, mind me.
There's an ex-Central Trains operating with Northern AFAIK. It's green with yellow doors and that's what I heard.

Your living in a dream world mate.

158s are perfect for that route. You can have 185s but they are limited speed wise serverly over copy pit.... 180s on york blackpool, have you actually gone mental?
Yeah they are ex central but more recently ex London Midland just that LM never cahnged the central livery on them.

 

[martinsh]

Can anyone shed any light on why during my week up north the most pleasant Northern train I have been on is an ex FGW pacer?

Because you're a namby-pamby southern sofite !

You probably don't even own a flat cap or a whippet !

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

I don't want 180s on the Caldervale, 185s would be okay but I never take into account the speed as I don't know the limits (being 13 limits this learning)
The line appears almost designed for 158s, they could do with more long-distance upgrades such as a trolley service and a few more amenities but otherwise it's good on them. (I've rode the line a few times, to Halifax or York and the state is definitely good)

 

[yorksrob]

You probably don't even own a flat cap or a whippet !

Oi, less of that.

This is Ferret country

 

[Lampshade]

The subway's at the other end of the station!

20, 30 second walk?

...185s would be amazing on the Caldervale

As YorkshireBear mentioned, they're limited (to 25mph) over Copy Pit. Preston - York is currently two and a half hours, putting 185s on that route would push it up to nearer three hours.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

and the stock for Blackpool-York isn't suited for a long-distance journey like that nearly 3 hour trip

The line appears almost designed for 158s, ... (I've rode the line a few times, to Halifax or York and the state is definitely good)

Which is it then?

 

[Welshman]

As YorkshireBear mentioned, they're limited (to 25mph) over Copy Pit.

Just out of interest, why is that, then?
Does it apply to the whole route from Hall Royd to Gannow Junction, or is it just over the actual summit apex?

185s don't seem to have any problems with the Calder Valley line when they're diverted that way during during engineering blockades at Standedge, and I presume they will use the route again this summer on Sundays while Stalybridge is being remodelled. So what is the problem with Copy Pit?

 

[Lampshade]

Just out of interest, why is that, then?
Does it apply to the whole route from Hall Royd to Gannow Junction, or is it just over the actual summit apex?

185s don't seem to have any problems with the Calder Valley line when they're diverted that way during during engineering blockades at Standedge, and I presume they will use the route again this summer on Sundays while Stalybridge is being remodelled. So what is the problem with Copy Pit?

It's the whole route from Rose Grove/Gannow Junction to Hall Royd Junction.

It's a combination of weight - Sprinters and Pacers can do 45mph whereas everything else is 25mph, and the fact the line has not seen any notable upgrades since it was freight-only. In contrast, the Calder Valley line has no such restrictions.

 

[AlanFry1]

What Northern should also do is order 46+ Class 170 so that they can take over routes done by Class 158, they in turn can be used to replace the Class 156 fleet (when can be transfered to other TOC's)

 

[ukrob]

What Northern should also do is order 46+ Class 170 so that they can take over routes done by Class 158, they in turn can be used to replace the Class 156 fleet (when can be transfered to other TOC's)

Is that in addition to the 60 class 170s you wanted earlier in the thread? I think you need a reality check.