The state of Northerns stock

[sprinterguy]

Should it be new EMUs/DMUs or current EMUs/DMUs that should replace them?

New DMUs suited to urban commuter services are going to be needed in order for all the Pacers to be replaced, alongside the currently announced electrification schemes. The only existing diesel stock that Northern might receive any time in the next few years is likely to be 156s or 158s, perhaps from Scottish Central Belt electrification. These are well suited to the many regional sorts of duties that Northern operate but not great for rapid loading and unloading on busy frequent stop services. Though of course it is difficult to split many of Northerns' services into purely short distance commuter or long distance regional services: A lot of them cater for both sorts of market in the course of their route.

If second-hand EMUs act to reduce the start-up costs of electrification schemes in the north and make them a more attractive proposition then I'm all for it.
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i.e. the 144s can be replaced by new/cascaded EMUs but new DMUs will be needed to replace the 142s.

Although it would be more practical to replace the 142s before the 144s, perhaps moving the twenty three 144s to Heaton depot to replace its' allocation of 142s.

 

[pemma]

Although it would be more practical to replace the 142s before the 144s, perhaps moving the twenty three 144s to Heaton depot to replace its' allocation of 142s.

Yep I was meaning order new DMUs to replace the 142s soon after the next franchise starts and the 144s can remain in service for a while until units are released by North TPE electrification.

 

[AlanFry1]

Here is my plan to replace the outdated Northern fleet (Note: I also plan to merge Northern with Merseyrail, EMT Routes 2,3 and 4 and TPE TransPennine North and South)

The first part of the plan is to replace the Class 142 (79 in total), Class 144 (23 in total), Class 150 (60 in total), Class 153 (24 in total) and Class 155 (7 in total) with at least 193 Class 172s

The second part of the plan is to order at least 71 Class 185 (with new engines to cover emission laws) to replace the 71 Class 158s, they will in turn replace the 156s which will be withdrawn

The third part is that 74 Class 350/1 or 377/5 is ordered to replace the 507s and 508s, also rather than getting Class 319s, a further 86 Class 350/1 or 377/5 will br ordered, that will make it a total of 160 Class 350/1 or 377/5

This could provide a lot of jobs in the UK (if the 350s and 185s are built in the UK)

 

[pemma]

The second part of the plan is to order at least 71 Class 185 (with new engines to cover emission laws) to replace the 71 Class 158s, they will in turn replace the 156s which will be withdrawn

Some issues:
1. 185s are diesel thirsty units built for hill climbing. They shouldn't be used on just any service.
2. 185s are slower than 158s on some lines despite the higher top speed due to the extra weight. This will likely be an issue between Peterborough and Norwich.
3. 185 interiors aren't really suitable for the long distance services they currently do without putting them on even longer services like Liverpool to Norwich.

To get around these issues you'd really need to design a new unit and give it a new class number.

This could provide a lot of jobs in the UK (if the 350s and 185s are built in the UK)

If you order from Siemens, the bulk of the work will be done in Germany. If you want a UK order for quick implementation then you need to suggest 172s and 379s instead.

 

[AlanFry1]

Some issues:
1. 185s are diesel thirsty units built for hill climbing. They shouldn't be used on just any service.
2. 185s are slower than 158s on some lines despite the higher top speed due to the extra weight. This will likely be an issue between Peterborough and Norwich.
3. 185 interiors aren't really suitable for the long distance services they currently do without putting them on even longer services like Liverpool to Norwich.

To get around these issues you'd really need to design a new unit and give it a new class number.



If you order from Siemens, the bulk of the work will be done in Germany. If you want a UK order for quick implementation then you need to suggest 172s and 379s instead.

I might suggest a Class 186 (lighter, more fuel effeicent and Long distance version of the 185), also is is not the case that both Class 185s and 158s have 2+2 (SC) and 2+1 (FC) seating?

There could also be track upgrades, but might be costly

Siemens could contract the work to Bombardier at Derby or Brush Traction, it has be done before (Class 91s for example)

 

[WatcherZero]

Though even with 172 and 379 the bogies, transmissions and engines are made in Germany.

 

[AlanFry1]

Though even with 172 and 379 the bogies, transmissions and engines are made in Germany.

At least they are still made in the UK, the government should encorage more trains and parts of trains to be built in the UK and by the way, I have nothing against Germand and French Rail Builders, we only have a choice of them and Japnese companies!

 

[pemma]

also is is not the case that both Class 185s and 158s have 2+2 (SC) and 2+1 (FC) seating?

The TPE 158s did not have 2+1 seating in FC.

The TPE 3 car 158s (which went to SWT to be converted to 159s) had a lot more seats than the 3 car 185s have and much comferior seating, so more people got a seat and the seating was better. The door layout on the 185s loses a lot of space for seating even before taking in to consideration the larger disabled toilet on the 185s and the extra wheelchair space.

Siemens could contract the work to Bombardier at Derby or Brush Traction, it has be done before (Class 91s for example)

Could but they won't. Despite having the Thameslink order, Siemens are still procuring the new order of 350s in Germany. They even said the order will take longer to procure because it's a small order of 350s at a busy time.

 

[AlanFry1]

The TPE 158s did not have 2+1 seating in FC.

The TPE 3 car 158s (which went to SWT to be converted to 159s) had a lot more seats than the 3 car 185s have and much comferior seating, so more people got a seat and the seating was better. The door layout on the 185s loses a lot of space for seating even before taking in to consideration the larger disabled toilet on the 185s and the extra wheelchair space.



Could but they won't. Despite having the Thameslink order, Siemens are still procuring the new order of 350s in Germany. They even said the order will take longer to procure because it's a small order of 350s at a busy time.

For extra seats, they could add a 4th car to the train and as for the 350s order, its not surprising, they have a huge Thameslink order to deal with

 

[WillPS]

Here is my plan to replace the outdated Northern fleet (Note: I also plan to merge Northern with Merseyrail, EMT Routes 2,3 and 4 and TPE TransPennine North and South)

The first part of the plan is to replace the Class 142 (79 in total), Class 144 (23 in total), Class 150 (60 in total), Class 153 (24 in total) and Class 155 (7 in total) with at least 193 Class 172s

The second part of the plan is to order at least 71 Class 185 (with new engines to cover emission laws) to replace the 71 Class 158s, they will in turn replace the 156s which will be withdrawn

The third part is that 74 Class 350/1 or 377/5 is ordered to replace the 507s and 508s, also rather than getting Class 319s, a further 86 Class 350/1 or 377/5 will br ordered, that will make it a total of 160 Class 350/1 or 377/5

This could provide a lot of jobs in the UK (if the 350s and 185s are built in the UK)

Dream on. The reality is 150s, 155s, 156s and 158 are all fit for purpose units with plenty of life in them. 153s will be too once they are reformed as 155s.

There needs to be an order of 172s or similar to replace Pacers soonish, along with a firm plan for DDA refurbs.

 

[Waverley125]

Ok, here's my two cents.

the 153s, 155s and 156s are all perfectly servicable with a refresh and a lick of paint. There's no issue there in terms of motive power. The 158s are sturdy, well within their designed lifetime, and I have to say, I like the North layout with the low-stop seats that mean you can see out the whole train (unlike EMTs)

The question is the pacers, and potentially the 150s. These badly need replacing.

The best way of doing this, I think, is by concentrating the good units on the lines they're best suited for. So the 158s on the S&C, Caldervale, Hope Valley etc-the 155s on the Little North Western. the 150s & 14xs go to inner suburban lines e.g. the Harrogate, Pontefract, Hallam lines.

Then build up plans for electrification of those lines on which the pacers are concentrated, and replace them with cascaded EMUs from other areas e.g. the 31Xs which will soon be cascaded off, if they haven't (like many of the 317s) been already.

This gives us full use of the decent DMUs, and time to come up with a better replacement train than we currently have.

Also bear in mind that midland/Great Western electrification will free up a lot of HSTs and 22xs. I'd hope to see XC services reformed with 9-coach HSTs with the EC interior design, and the 22Xs used on inter-urban work their design is suited for e.g. Edinburgh-Aberdeen, Liverpool-Norwich, Leeds-Glasgow via S&C etc.

 

[pemma]

For extra seats, they could add a 4th car to the train

51 extra centre carriages for an expired design that was last produced in 2006 does not justify the expense setting up a whole new production line for. That's why TPE were expecting to get a completely new type of DMU to use alongside their 185s before the tender was cancelled and electrification plans were announced.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I would echo the setiments many have regarding Northern's on-train staff. You get less of the false 'have-a-nice-day' customer service school garbage spewed from so many other TOC's on board staff and more genuine people dealing with real passengers.

 

[87019Chris]

My Plan
STEP 1
I would first withdraw the 142's replacing them with a very lightweight 185ish design this then meaning that they will be fuel efficient and fast. They would be 3 car units, and half of them would be long distance units (2+2) SC and FC (1+2) for work on Leeds Nottingham routes and the other half would be a normal sub-urban type SC only (2+2) there would be a 3 car unit to replace each 2 car 142. This would mean that the displaced 158's would go on either 156 or 155 (and 2x153 re-formed) routes and they would cover the 150(some of the longer distance) and 142 runs improving comfort.
STEP 2
The electrification would have happened by this time from Liverpool all the way to York Via Man Picc and Vic to Huddersfield, the units uesd on these runs would allow for the 15x units that are in bad shape (which ever class it may be I expect it to be the 150's) at the time to be taken of the rails and replaced by either new 350/4 stock designed for leightwieght pennine runs (2+2) and 4+cars. Or this could be old London EMU's (not preferred) and a follow on order of the 185ish designs. To allow for more of the older stock to be replaced as the EMU's are old aswell.
Step 3
Would be to electrify diversionary routes in Leeds and Manchester, also electrifing local lines there and the Wakefield to Sheffield all routes to be turned into EMU routes allowing more DMU's to be used on peak local non electrified routes. Once this has been done then a consultation period will be undertaken to if there are any other lines that would make sense to electrify.

Maybe the units could be given to Brush, and maybe to Bombadier but im not to keen on them as there products are always delayed and have problems when being inrtoduced, but i dont wish to derail the thread so im not bothered were they come from as long as there built to last.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I would echo the setiments many have regarding Northern's on-train staff. You get less of the false 'have-a-nice-day' customer service school garbage spewed from so many other TOC's on board staff and more genuine people dealing with real passengers.

The way I (personally) loo at it is this

I know we have old units

I know we have Pacers

But

Passengers (the majority) know there isn't much we can do

People want real facts, not a fake smile

I will always be a professional (even when pushed)

But I don't make us out to be something that we are not

worked for me for a very long time and its the way I intend to continue

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Note: I also plan to merge Northern with Merseyrail

Are you aware that the Merseyrail franchise is not awarded by the Department for Transport but by the Merseyside Passenger Transport Executive. The current Merseyrail franchise was awarded in 2003 for an initial period of 25 years, so I can see numerous legal reasons why such a supposition such as yours would be fought by the legal advisors to Merseyrail, noting that the Northern franchise ends in 2014, whereas the current Merseyrail franchise runs on for a further period of fourteen years until 2028.

 

[YorkshireBear]

BR PLC/... changed to Alanfry1... have i missed something here? didnt he get banned ages ago...

Paul, thats quite interesting didnt realise it was such a long franchise, explains why they are going to replace the stock.

 

[yorkie]

BR PLC/... changed to Alanfry1... have i missed something here? didnt he get banned ages ago....

Sometimes people create a duplicate account. When this occurs, is our policy to merge the new account into the existing account. Sometimes they get away with posting before it is discovered. Sometimes their posts may be removed, sometimes they aren't (particularly if they are quoted multiple times, this massively increases the workload). It can depend on how quickly it is reported by PM or, even better, using the report (

) feature and how quickly we can investigate.

Anyway back on topic...!

Paul, that’s quite interesting didn’t realise it was such a long franchise, explains why they are going to replace the stock.

Yes, a long franchise helps in this respect. Also the fact the trains are electric means considerably more chance of persuading banks/leasing companies to finance new stock.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Sometimes people create a duplicate account. When this occurs, is our policy to merge the new account into the existing account. Sometimes they get away with posting before it is discovered. Sometimes their posts may be removed, sometimes they aren't (particularly if they are quoted multiple times, this massively increases the workload). It can depend on how quickly it is reported by PM or, even better, using the report (

) feature and how quickly we can investigate.

Anyway back on topic...!

Yes, a long franchise helps in this respect. Also the fact the trains are electric means considerably more chance of persuading banks/leasing companies to finance new stock.

Thanks

Well i suppose thats the main thing, if merseyrail go tits up (unlikely but in financing terms i suppose they might consider what might happen to the franchise) then theres a big 3rd rail land down south of the river and of course longer life span etc, makes sense. Any chance of making them dual stock just for good measure...

 

[Lampshade]

Any chance of making them dual stock just for good measure...

That would be a good idea given Liverpool - Manchester and Wigan is being wired as it'd mean City Line stopping services can be transferred to Merseyrail, thereby freeing up stock for Northern.

 

[CC 72100]

BR PLC/... changed to Alanfry1... have i missed something here? didnt he get banned ages ago...

I had my suspicions myself about this 'new member' , so wasn't too surprised to see this when I logged on here this morning!

Back on topic, I think the philosophy posted by ANorthern Guard is the right one, as there is nothing that Northern can do for a little while yet about their stock, but just go about their work in the manner that he describes.

 

[Blindtraveler]

am I rite in thinking Northern and Mursyrail are part owned by the same people?
If so, given the TL stock delays would it not make sense to order a huuuuge batch of duel valtage 379s for both networks? The refurbed 319s could then be used in the south and would maybe allow the slight staggering of 313/315/317 replacement?

Appologies for maybe talking rubbish but as someone who knows comparatively little it makes sense especially as TL is going to Germany, give Darby something to do post S Stock.

 

[pemma]

am I rite in thinking Northern and Mursyrail are part owned by the same people?

Yes but the Northern franchise is approaching the end, while Merseyrail has over 15 years left to run.

 

[Blindtraveler]

oh should have made it clearer - if the franchise is retained

 

[Statto]

Merseyrail has different characteristics to the Northern Rail network being self contained & 3rd rail, & probably better off as a separate network, shame Merseytravel didn't take the maintenance part of Merseyrail from Network Rail.

I'll say it again, although NR have there hands tied by the DFT on new units, however the cleaniness of fleet which is in the hands of NR, is shocking, i do wonder if they've heard of the train wash, the 150s & 156s are worst for this.

 

[Lampshade]

I'll say it again, although NR have there hands tied by the DFT on new units, however the cleaniness of fleet which is in the hands of NR, is shocking, i do wonder if they've heard of the train wash, the 150s & 156s are worst for this.

To be fair, put a newly washed train on Buxton services for a day in Autumn and it'll look like it hasn't been washed in a month; they probably wash them more often than the look of the train would have you believe.

 

[Hudds_Bungle]

I've been reading through this with a little bit of ammusement, a bit of intrest and unfortunatly some annoyance with the odd post.

Yes the stock that NR operates is old and cosmetically tired, that can change with investment and/or cascaded stock. We can only hope that the DfT will make good sound decisions in the comming months and years, what the chances of that happening though are debatable....

The front line staff at NR are doing thier best with what they've been given, we know the shortcommings of various formations, type of traction etc well enough.

As to the ideas of 'new' stock I can see a Siemens vs Bombardier debate comming however can I just point out that one of the biggest factors in rolling stock allocation is platform length. Trust me on this, some of the formations I work into certain stations is unbelevibly restrictive, even with just a 144(3)! This is out of NR's control, they can only ask Network Rail for extensions to these stations and some of these extensions leave no room for further service improvements.

Of course in an ideal world.....

 

[pemma]

To be fair, put a newly washed train on Buxton services for a day in Autumn and it'll look like it hasn't been washed in a month; they probably wash them more often than the look of the train would have you believe.

Some information on the non-cleaning of diesel units:
http://www.mcrua.org.uk/chairmansblog/2010/04/10/northerns-dirty-diesels/
http://www.mcrua.org.uk/chairmansblog/2011/08/15/northern-comes-clean/
http://www.mcrua.org.uk/chairmansblog/2012/03/15/our-visit-to-newton-heath/
http://www.mcrua.org.uk/chairmansblog/2012/03/29/the-big-scrub/

In summary the basic problem has been the lack of working train washing facilities on the west side, other than the one at Longsight which Northern can only used for the 323s, which are their cleanest units.

They now have a new wash facility at Allerton but they face a backlog of uncleaned trains.

 

[HowMuch?]

The ones with the higher seat backs are reasonably comfortable if you get a pair of seats to yourself, otherwise your knees are rammed painfully into those sadistic narrow hard-edged kneeholes.

The ones with the low-backed bench seats are very 1950's. Especially on the way back from the Hope Valley with gently-steaming bobble-hatted beer-scented walkers (I'm often one of them).

 

[Beveridges]

In defense of Northerns stock, I recently made a journey to the Cumbrian Coast from Blackpool. I used 3 TOCs trains, TransPennine 185, Virgin 221 , Northern 156, BY FAR the most pleasant journey was on the 156, in terms of comfort, and crowdedness and Virgin was the worst by far.