The State Of Rail Travel In Lincolnshire

[David Barrett]

I would most certianly agree with Phill H about Brigg, the railway, as a passenger carrier, has been forgotten about. Most people that I have contact with there can't even recall when there was a viable service. I suppose that it was really a long process of decline starting with the May, 1968 timetable in which the number of trains operating via Brigg was reduced. The 1969 issue, a scan of which I have attached, shows just four Monday to Friday Up services and five Down. With the withdrawal of the 06.00 Cleethorpes to Retford and 18.30 Sheffield to Cleethorpes (19.23 Retford) services the previous year it would have been easy to see that the intention was to make the service as inconvenient as possible and to concentrate through traffic from Grimsby etc. on to the Scunthorpe and Lincoln Routes, which did benifit from improved services at the time. Perhaps oddly, the evening departure from Sheffield was retained on Sundays.

The 1968 improvements elsewhere were not without motive; this was the year of the second, and ultimately successful, closure proposal for the East Lincs. Line.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Has my suggestion that a basic Brigg service (through to Sheffield) might possibly be provided, without requiring additional units, bypassed you completely in your raging desire to keep pushing your assortment of completely unworkable and pointless proposals?

Your suggestion was put to Northern Rail who said it was this would need to go to the stakeholders, etc etc etc

The idea of stopping the Lincoln services short at Retford by Nottinghamshire County Council is that the extra unit could be used to provide a 30 minute service between Worksop and Sheffield Midland.

As I posted before they " Nottinghamshire County Council " were looking at Worksop or Retford as a hub station where passengers could easly connect with other lines/routes.

Gainsborough Central
I would prefer not to see adverse comments about Gainsborough Central. It is a beautiful station and with the sun at the right angle the new palisade fencing positively gleams with pride.

West Lindsey Council who's HQ is near the Gainsborough Central think its an embarrassment, they have openly said that it is not a great advert for visitors to the town or the Marshalls shopping complex which is bang next to the station.

 

[Tomnick]

Brilliant . So they're proposing to turn back all the Lincoln trains at Retford to release a unit (singular) for an enhanced Retford service, then extend Robin Hood line services from Worksop to Lincoln to fill the gap. I wonder where the additional two units for this will come from? Magic, perhaps. Incidentally, a half hourly Sheffield - Retford service would need two extra units if my calculations are correct (even Worksop would be too tight for one unit), so the one released wouldn't be sufficient for even that bit alone.

So, to summarise, this crowd are proposing something that'll destroy any prospect of a meaningful service for anyone east of Retford, and requiring three extra units in the process?

 

[PhillH]

The sad fact is that most of our infrastructure is dictated by revenue potential and I can't see how dressing up Gainsborough Central in any way would generate more footfall. There is an alternative point of view which is perhaps more important and that is to make it minimal thereby making it less attractive for the plagues of feral youths that can afflict these places. One has only to walk across the town to see the damage caused to the lighting system at Gains. Lea Rd., a station where some not insignificant amount of money had been spent.
Incidentally, I understand that the palisade fencing which semi secures Central was placed there partly as a consequence of a popular local pastime of playing chicken.

 

[HSTEd]

Short of some sort of East Coast High Speed line that would put Gainsborough in the commuter belt..... I got nothing.

 

[wbbminerals]

One has only to walk across the town to see the damage caused to the lighting system at Gains. Lea Rd., a station where some not insignificant amount of money had been spent.
Incidentally, I understand that the palisade fencing which semi secures Central was placed there partly as a consequence of a popular local pastime of playing chicken.

That reminds me of last Friday when I was on a bus through Gainsborough and a young lad on a bike chucked a tin or something at the bus, which damaged the paintwork a little. Is it a rough area for Lincolnshire? :roll:

 

[ashworth]

I think extending Nottingham-Worksop trains through to Lincoln at the expense of Sheffield is daft.

Surely a
Hourly Sheffield-Fast-Worksop-Lincoln
Hourly Sheffield-All Stations-Workop-Nottingham

is what the public would want. There are often a number of passengers getting off the Robin Hood Line with through tickets to Sheffield (and with a 50minute wait) at Worksop.

Yes something like that is what is really needed. The important link from Lincoln to Sheffield needs speeding up and Mansfield and the North Notts/NE Derbys communities need a better service to/from Sheffield.

There are almost always a small number of passengers changing at Worksop but potentially it could be a significant number of passengers.
As I've said before on other threads the communities on the Robin Hood Line north of Mansfield look far more towards Sheffield for leisure, shopping and employment than Nottingham yet a journey by train to Sheffield includes that long wait for a connection at Worksop.

Trains between Mansfield and Nottingham are half hourly and quite busy throughout the day but I've never been on a train north of Mansfield with more than a couple of dozen passengers at off peak times. The trains north of Mansfield would be used more if there were better opportunities to travel beyond Worksop. The journey from Mansfield to Sheffield should not take nearly 2 hours when it can be done by road in well under 1 hour. A through service would be great but a convenient connection may help to test the potential for a through service.
As said in my previous posting Notts County Council do not really want to promote travel to and from Sheffield and so better journey times have never really been included in any kind of future planning.

Better journey times to/from Sheffield would also encourage more people to travel by train to destinations in the north from Mansfield. Currently it is usually quicker and more convenient to first travel south via Nottingham.

 

[PhillH]

Ashworth, you hit the nail on the head with your comment about a faster Lincoln Sheffield service. The passenger stats for Lincoln have blossomed of late no doubt due to the success of the university and potential is there for further growth. Convert the pie in the sky suggestions for a T.P. service out of Cleethorpes via Brigg to a limited stop T.P. service of Lincoln to Manchester and everyone will be happy, or will they?

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Brilliant . So they're proposing to turn back all the Lincoln trains at Retford to release a unit (singular) for an enhanced Retford service, then extend Robin Hood line services from Worksop to Lincoln to fill the gap. I wonder where the additional two units for this will come from? Magic, perhaps. Incidentally, a half hourly Sheffield - Retford service would need two extra units if my calculations are correct (even Worksop would be too tight for one unit), so the one released wouldn't be sufficient for even that bit alone.

The extra Sheffield Midland Worksop or Retford service would be a semi fast one , calling at Woodhouse, Kiveton Bridge & Worksop.

Short of some sort of East Coast High Speed line that would put Gainsborough in the commuter belt..... I got nothing.

The EC Lincoln to London Kings Cross service, where does this set run light from, if it is Leeds I wonder if if passes though Gainsborough Lea Road ?

That reminds me of last Friday when I was on a bus through Gainsborough and a young lad on a bike chucked a tin or something at the bus, which damaged the paintwork a little. Is it a rough area for Lincolnshire? :roll:

Their is little on the job front like most towns, thats why West Lindsey Council want a better rail service so it can bring in money to the town.

As for the buses, did you know their are no bus service out of Gainsborough after 6pm and none at all on a Sunday.

Convert the pie in the sky suggestions for a T.P. service out of Cleethorpes via Brigg to a limited stop T.P. service of Lincoln to Manchester and everyone will be happy, or will they?

That be the pie in the sky service which the Department for Transport are pushing for ?

 

[David Barrett]

The extra Sheffield Midland Worksop or Retford service would be a semi fast one , calling at Woodhouse, Kiveton Bridge & Worksop.


The EC Lincoln to London Kings Cross service, where does this set run light from, if it is Leeds I wonder if if passes though Gainsborough Lea Road ?


Their is little on the job front like most towns, thats why West Lindsey Council want a better rail service so it can bring in money to the town.

As for the buses, did you know their are no bus service out of Gainsborough after 6pm and none at all on a Sunday.


That be the pie in the sky service which the Department for Transport are pushing for ?

Surely the way to organise the enhanced Retford to Sheffield service would be for Lincoln to become semi fast and Retford to be all stations.

The ECS. from Neville Hill for Lincoln to King's Cross runs, as far as I am aware, mainly via Gainsborough but occasionally via Newark although I did wonder whether a stable path was possible in order that this train could be advertised from Doncaster at least. The return working was advertised during the Christmas Market last December. Perhaps it has been kept as such because of a lingering aspiration that this train might ultimately serve Cleethorpes etc.

With regard to bus services in Lincolnshire the 18.00 curfew is fairly widespresd, even Scunthorpe, itself substantially larger than Gainsborough, has very limited evening and Sunday Services.

On the subject of Trans Pennine; Lincoln to Manchester please?

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Surely the way to organise the enhanced Retford to Sheffield service would be for Lincoln to become semi fast and Retford to be all stations.

The ECS. from Neville Hill for Lincoln to King's Cross runs, as far as I am aware mainly via Gainsborough but occasionally via Newark although I did wonder whether a stable path was possible in order that this train could be advertised from Doncaster at least. The return working was advertised during the Christmas Market last December. Perhaps it has been kept as such because of a lingering aspiration that this train might ultimately serve Cleethorpes etc.

With regard to bus services in Lincolnshire the 18.00 curfew is fairly widespresd, even Scunthorpe, itself substantially larger than Gainsborough, has very limited evening and Sunday Services.

On the subject of Trans Pennine; Lincoln to Manchester please?

Like I said the plan is in the near future to have a every 30 minute service from Sheffield Midland to Worksop, at present each council on the line/s seem to be coming up with allsorts of different ideas, its a case of them working together to bring about the best for the passengers on the routes.

We agree that a semi fast Lincoln service is a good idea and this has been put forward to the Department for Transport, South Yorkshire PTE & relevant councils on the routes, who runs these services at present know one knows, we are talking at least 3-5 years away before any sort of improvements.

As for the Trans Pennine service to/from Lincoln this is also a good idea but which way would you run it , via Doncaster or Worksop ?

 

[David Barrett]

The 3-5 years seems about right, taking into account rolling stock availability and franchise renewals but it is right to discuss and provide input to the relevant authorities at an early stage, they need all the help that they can get if you see what I mean.

With regard to Lincoln/Manchester I would advocate Worksop, see my earlier post No. 420 on this thread.

 

[Tomnick]

Like I said the plan is in the near future

The plan, or the unrealistic aspirations of one group of stakeholders (who can't even agree between themselves, it seems; each no doubt seeking to satisfy their own agenda at the cost of what the passengers actually want!)...?

 

[sheff'd victoria]

The plan, or the unrealistic aspirations of one group of stakeholders (who can't even agree between themselves, it seems; each no doubt seeking to satisfy their own agenda at the cost of what the passengers actually want!)...?

We have to agree that this is rather true, our group gets allsorts of suggestions from each council, we then pop their ideas up on here for everyone to debate.

Were still waiting for a responce from Northern Rail that you suggested about using the extra stock at Sheffield to use a Sheffield Midland - Cleethorpes Via Gainsborough Central service

The 3-5 years seems about right, taking into account rolling stock availability and franchise renewals but it is right to discuss and provide input to the relevant authorities at an early stage, they need all the help that they can get if you see what I mean.

With regard to Lincoln/Manchester I would advocate Worksop, see my earlier post No. 420 on this thread.

The TPE idea from/to Lincoln has been put forward to TPE and the DfT ......we now wait for a responce.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As for the buses, did you know their are no bus service out of Gainsborough after 6pm and none at all on a Sunday.

A sad state of affairs for a town with a 20,000 population.

 

[David Barrett]

A sad state of affairs for a town with a 20,000 population.

Lamentable indeed but looking at timetables for the whole county, towns of a similar scope to Gainsborough, notably Boston and Grantham are in the same position and, as well as Scunthorpe already mentioned, Lincoln and Grimsby are slightly better off but in general most services are off the road by 18.00-19.00 with only a sparse evening and Sunday Service on the remaining routes. Bus service economics have been a problem in Lincolnshire for many years with Boston being highlighted by the former Lincolnshire Road Car Company as long ago as 1965. I was, myself, an employee of this very company from 1977 to 1985 and witnessed continual pruning of services during that period, the fleet size at Scunthorpe alone being reduced from around 80 to 43 vehicles over these years. One day in 1983 I was chatting to the Depot Engineer in his office at Lincoln about the position of the company, he picked a rule up off his desk and ran it round the bounds of the Southern Area on a wall mounted map, "One big black hole, a drain into which huge sums of money are sucked - disappearing without trace".

 

[HSTEd]

Grantham Buses are a joke, they have been slowly rolled back for the last twenty years as fares just climb and climb and climb.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

A sad state of affairs for a town with a 20,000 population.

but very typical of a none PTE area ... especially one with sparse loadings and long distances to run , as others have said only lincoln and Grimsby have the population in their boundaries and adjacent ( but in the case of Lincoln under the District councils) settlements .

just looked at the route map and time table for the services to the village i grew up in just to the south east of Lincoln

day time frequencies are now better on the 'local' route ( 3 buses an hour spread over the hour instead of 2 within a few minutes of each other - from when Road Car and LCT were seperate operations- and 45 minute gap ) but the last bus in now 8 pm rather than after 11pm

but the 'long distance' route serving the further out villages down the 'main' B road is back to pre deregulation every 2 hours and the sole 'commuter' time outbound service misses out three of the rural villages - but the 2 hour time table for the Stagecoach service reflects the fact that the closer to Lincoln parts of that route also have the council subsidised 'connect ' services now ...

waits for the time table geeks to come up with a suggestion of where mph grew up ...

actually I ' mis-recalled' re the local route a for at least a short period post de-regulation there were three buses an hour on the local route - but all packed together at the top of the hour - Road car , LCT and an Independent operator

 

[David Barrett]

waits for the time table geeks to come up with a suggestion of where mph grew up ...

Somewhere in the vicinity of Branston perhaps?

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Somewhere in the vicinity of Branston perhaps?

well done

for those wanting the full answers

the 'local' route is the current 2 - which was the 2(road car) 2a(Enterprise and silver Dawn ) and 51 (LCT)

the long distance route is the 31 or 631 as it was under roadcar

 

[tbtc]

Just a thought but if services in Lincolnshire (like Gainsborough to Doncaster, Brigg to anywhere) aren't busy enough to justify a regular commercial bus service then does it sound like a waste of money trying to get a train service running at regular intervals?

After all, the "success stories" when it comes to re-opening or significantly improving railways are generally those which had a good bus service (e.g. Alloa to Stirling saw seven buses an hour on the main road - not counting those "the back way" via Menstrie).

Can't justify a minibus yet people want to put on big trains?

 

[edwin_m]

Alternatively how about co-ordinating buses and trains so each does what it does best and the two work together?

 

[Mitch in Notts]

One day in 1983 I was chatting to the Depot Engineer in his office at Lincoln about the position of the company, he picked a rule up off his desk and ran it round the bounds of the Southern Area on a wall mounted map, "One big black hole, a drain into which huge sums of money are sucked - disappearing without trace".

I was told that when Lincolnshire closed their Holbeach outstation following the closure of their Boston depot that Holbeach WAS profitable - but with Bostons closure it was too far detached from the rest of the network. Certainly Norfolk Green seem to be doing very well on the 505 through the area!

 

[tbtc]

Alternatively how about co-ordinating buses and trains so each does what it does best and the two work together?

If the East Midlands Trains franchise and the old Lincolnshire Road Car operation were part of the same parent company then that should be possible.

 

[David Barrett]

I was told that when Lincolnshire closed their Holbeach outstation following the closure of their Boston depot that Holbeach WAS profitable - but with Bostons closure it was too far detached from the rest of the network. Certainly Norfolk Green seem to be doing very well on the 505 through the area!

I have no doubt that the Spalding to King's Lynn Route was remunerative as it survived very much unscathed during my period of employment with the LRCC. and beyond. Unfortunately, as events elsewhere demonstrate it was very much one of the exceptions, even other long standing routes such as Lincoln to Skegness were in what appeared to be terminal decline by the early 1980s and quite possibly would no longer be with us (Scunthorpe to Grimsby for example) had it not been for County Council input and money. There was, I beleive, a governance issue with the LRCC. that was not helped by the period of uncertianty leading up to de-regulation and privatisation. Sadly one swallow does not make a summer, if there were a few more Spalding-Kings Lynns the Road car maght not have found itself in the dire position of the early 1980s facing a very doubtful future.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the East Midlands Trains franchise and the old Lincolnshire Road Car operation were part of the same parent company then that should be possible.

They are of course but the trouble there is that whilst Stagecoach are probably likely to hold the Road Car well into the future their involvement with the EMT. franchise is less assured.

 

[burns20]

I couldn't get over checking times for evening services to the Birchwood Estate...the Fulmar Road daytime service has the best its ever had...but last buses to anywhere on the estate around 1900. Guessing cuts to subsidy to the old 27A/66A killed "late" services in Lincoln City area?

 

[David Barrett]

Just a thought but if services in Lincolnshire (like Gainsborough to Doncaster, Brigg to anywhere) aren't busy enough to justify a regular commercial bus service then does it sound like a waste of money trying to get a train service running at regular intervals?

After all, the "success stories" when it comes to re-opening or significantly improving railways are generally those which had a good bus service (e.g. Alloa to Stirling saw seven buses an hour on the main road - not counting those "the back way" via Menstrie).

Can't justify a minibus yet people want to put on big trains?

I wouldn't compare bus and rail use to that extent; there are two distinct psycologies at work here in so much as the rail user tends to use the railway because he wants to and often has access to a private vehicle whereas the bus user tends to use the bus because he has no alternative. A viable train service is more likely to attract car users whereas a bus service is less likely to do so. It was painfully obvious, although some of my former managers at the Road Car seemed to be either oblivious to or in denial about the decline in bus use, particularly where there was a parallel rail service whose passenger numbers were not in such an absolute state, that the relationship between the two modes was not as simple as would be imagined.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Just a thought but if services in Lincolnshire (like Gainsborough to Doncaster, Brigg to anywhere) aren't busy enough to justify a regular commercial bus service then does it sound like a waste of money trying to get a train service running at regular intervals?

Their are no buses that go direct from Gainsborough to Doncaster, from Brigg you can go to Scunthorpe and thats mainly it.

What do you class as a regular interval for a train service ?

At present as you will know the Brigg line has 3 trains each way on a Saturday Only, if this was made to 4 trains each way this would make the timetable much more flexable and less anti social as the MP's on the route have said.

I wouldn't compare bus and rail use to that extent; there are two distinct psycologies at work here in so much as the rail user tends to use the railway because he wants to and often has access to a private vehicle whereas the bus user tends to use the bus because he has no alternative. A viable train service is more likely to attract car users whereas a bus service is less likely to do so

Spot On

 

[edwin_m]

They are of course but the trouble there is that whilst Stagecoach are probably likely to hold the Road Car well into the future their involvement with the EMT. franchise is less assured.

Quite so. And if they did try to integrate their bus and rail operations there is a risk that another operator would attempt to cherry-pick the best routes, or they might even be up before the Competition Commission.

Bus-rail integration is basically incompatible with a deregulated bus system.

 

[tbtc]

They are of course but the trouble there is that whilst Stagecoach are probably likely to hold the Road Car well into the future their involvement with the EMT. franchise is less assured

They've been under the same ownership for a few years now.

Stagecoach in Sheffield are keen to promote their trams and Megabus operations on local buses (posters etc), the buses often carry adverts for EMT, they've painted a tram in EMT livery to promote their train services, they seem to want to encourage Stagecoach passengers to use other Stagecoach services (even though both EMT and Supertram are only being run by Stagecoach for a certain period of time).

I wouldn't compare bus and rail use to that extent; there are two distinct psycologies at work here in so much as the rail user tends to use the railway because he wants to and often has access to a private vehicle whereas the bus user tends to use the bus because he has no alternative. A viable train service is more likely to attract car users whereas a bus service is less likely to do so. It was painfully obvious, although some of my former managers at the Road Car seemed to be either oblivious to or in denial about the decline in bus use, particularly where there was a parallel rail service whose passenger numbers were not in such an absolute state, that the relationship between the two modes was not as simple as would be imagined.

The two are different, of course, and a train service will generally attract more people than an equivalent bus service (for the same frequency/ journey time/ fares).

But if you can't attract enough people for a minibus to be viable on some Lincolnshire routes, I'm struggling to believe that a train (with a hundred more seats to fill?) is going to be a realistic proposition.

Their are no buses that go direct from Gainsborough to Doncaster, from Brigg you can go to Scunthorpe and thats mainly it

Does that suggest a lack of demand to travel between such places?

If a (twenty five seat?) Optare Solo can't find enough people to make such a journey then why are we seeing suggestions of TPE 185s (with almost ten times more capacity than a minibus) on equivalent routes?