The station is unstaffed please buy your ticket on the train

[sqwizz]

In the disputes & prosecutions forum, it's often mentioned that you must buy a ticket before boarding, if there is at least a TVM on the platform. For example this quote from Hadders:

From a legal point of view you must buy a ticket before you board the train if there is an open ticket office or ticket vending machine that accepts your chosen method of payment. If you pass an opportunity to purchase a ticket for your journey then you commit a criminal offence.

But what about when there are TVMs, alongside signs telling you to buy your ticket on the train. I've attached a picture of one. To add to the confusion, at some of these stations there are even posters nearby warning of a penalty if you don't buy a ticket before boarding.

I've bought my tickets on the train from these stations a few times, and none of the guards has ever had a problem. It's just a curiosity question. I think about it every time it comes up in those disputes threads. If I did come across a guard one day who wanted to report me, would the existence of these signs trump whatever other rules exist?

 

[P Binnersley]

Railway Byelaws:

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas​

1. in any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel
2. a person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person
3. no person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:
   1. there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey or
   2. there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket or
   3. an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket

Penalty Fare Regulations 2018

Penalty fares – train passenger exclusions​

6.—(1) Subject to paragraph (6), a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train (in this regulation “the passenger”) must not be charged a penalty fare where either paragraph (2) or (3) applies.

(2) This paragraph applies if, at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the train—

(a)there were no facilities in operation for the sale of a travel ticket for that passenger’s journey;

(b)the requirements for the display of notices specified in regulation 8 were not satisfied;

(c)a notice was displayed indicating that the passenger was, or persons generally were, permitted to travel by or be present on the train without having a travel ticket; or

(d)the operator of the train or the station, or a person acting or purporting to act on behalf of the operator, indicated that the passenger was, or persons generally were, permitted to travel by or be present on the train without having a travel ticket.

The notice gives you permission to board a train without a ticket so you can not be penalty fares/prosecuted.
Given the current litigious nature of the railway it is a sensible precaution to take a photo of the notice.

Regrettably I expect the notice will now disappear.

 

[Hadders]

In the disputes & prosecutions forum, it's often mentioned that you must buy a ticket before boarding, if there is at least a TVM on the platform. For example this quote from Hadders:


But what about when there are TVMs, alongside signs telling you to buy your ticket on the train. I've attached a picture of one. To add to the confusion, at some of these stations there are even posters nearby warning of a penalty if you don't buy a ticket before boarding.

I've bought my tickets on the train from these stations a few times, and none of the guards has ever had a problem. It's just a curiosity question. I think about it every time it comes up in those disputes threads. If I did come across a guard one day who wanted to report me, would the existence of these signs trump whatever other rules exist?

If there is a sign telling you that buying onboard is allowed then you can do exactly that.

The sign should have been removed when the ticket machine was installed. Leaving it there just causes confusion.

 

[robbeech]

The sign should have been removed when the ticket machine was installed. Leaving it there just causes confusion.

You say confusion I say increased profit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You say confusion I say increased profit.

Do RPIs ever go out on the Vale? I never saw one. You could get pulled up at one of the datelines (Bedford is particularly strict) but most people not wanting to pay probably just use Fenny Stratford and Bedford St John's.

FWIW, I've even seen staff letting people through the gateline at Bletchley without tickets and being told to buy one on the train as "it's a Paytrain" despite that concept not having existed for a very long time.

I bet those TVMs get almost no use. Sometimes they're even incredibly risky to use being on the "wrong" side of a level crossing - personally I always buy on my phone if using the Vale.

 

[Kite159]

And I suspect most of the time the guard remains in the back cab as that's the only place they can do the doors from. Unless LNR has modified the 150s to have panels at the intermediate doors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And I suspect most of the time the guard remains in the back cab as that's the only place they can do the doors from. Unless LNR has modified the 150s to have panels at the intermediate doors.

Most Bletchley guards don't do tickets on any service. The odd one does, though, last time I used the Vale the guard was doing a pretty good old-North-West-style job, doing tickets and doing doors from both ends with only a small amount of delay in opening the doors and no delay to the actual service against the timetable. Modern ticketing kit doesn't help with this, though - inexplicably, it's much, much slower than SPORTIS was, despite there being no reason it should be.