The Sunday Times: 'Ironing board' seats

[Andyh82]

It’s good to see this bring brought up in the press, as stuff like this seems to go under the radar. The focus is usually just on if there are seats at all.

It does take the shine of new trains, will the same happen when the 800/801s take over from refurbished HSTs/Mk4’s on VTEC? Also what about Northern’s new trains, even the bus seated pacers have a thick cushion on the seats.

 

[ComUtoR]

What amazes me the amount of people on here that defend them. Basically say we should stop complaining and accept them.

Ahh the memories of the complaints in the 700 thread. I'm also amazed about how many (or at least a specific few) were very quick to defend them and stated how no one was complaining about the seats.

 

[physics34]

Have been hoping for this backlash for a while.

As more people travel on them, more of these trains come on stream and more people suffer back problems on their 2 1/2 journeys hopefully the DfT will take note.

people on certain routes.........Littlehampton to London Bridge had comfortable SPRUNG 4CIG seats until 2004.... then replaced with 377s with varied quality of seating.....Now they have 700s.....

i put SPRUNG in CAPS. Why isnt a sprung seat cushion on the market for trains that is fire retardant. ? Ridiculous.

 

[Raul_Duke]

I’m confused, if it’s a DFT spec, is this one of those things that would have been fixed by nationalisation?

 

[physics34]

Ahh the memories of the complaints in the 700 thread. I'm also amazed about how many (or at least a specific few) were very quick to defend them and stated how no one was complaining about the seats.

exactly. It was clear just from pictures that the new seats would be unsuitable and uncomfortable. We kept being told by people that the units were for metro journeys and sod anyone else who needs to travel for longer, they should shut it and cope. About time Chris Grayling did a full Bedford to Brighton trip in a 700 seat and a Full Paddington to Cardiff in a 800 seat and tell us how it felt.

 

[physics34]

I’m confused, if it’s a DFT spec, is this one of those things that would have been fixed by nationalisation?

good point. But it is clear that they have got this wrong.
They can say what they like about fire safety rules and vandal proofing....the seats are just cheap! Considering the lifespan of seats and the cost of the trains themselves, why be so cheap?

 

[TEW]

All they need is the ScotRail base foam. It really is hugely more comfortable.

I'd have to disagree there. I've travelled on a refurbished Scotrail 156, which are having the same seat fitted, and I would not describe it as hugely more comfortable at all. Slightly better I would say. Still unmistakeably an ironing board. If you want a comfortable seat, ditch the ironing boards entirely, don't try and make them a little bit better.

 

[class387]

Being a long-term Thameslink victim, I never expected Pullman-style luxury and the olld 319 steats were rubbish. The Class 700 standard seat plumbs new depths of awfulness, as I ponted out to the FCC representatives at their exhibition of the mock-up unit. Clearly they weren't bothered because they knew they'd lost the franchise by then and were happy to throw Govia "under the bus".

You only have to look at the fact that the declassified 1st class at the rear of the train fills up first to understand how most passengers hate the seats. They're unforgiving, too close to the seat in front and if there's a porker sitting by the window, you can only get one arse cheek on the outside seat. Can someone explain why the fire regulations mean that the seat cushon and backrest can't have any padding? The furniture industry has been successfully making comfy sofas and chairs that comply with fire retardant regulations. If it's true that my backside is being numbed for the want of £100 per seat then we need to make the whole of DfT (including the ministers) ride between Brighton and Bedford continually until they agree to stump up the cash for a fleet wide replacement programme.

The old seats from the 700s can be recycled as replacement benches in the Houses of Parliament. That'll make sure they won't sleep though any debates.

The 1st seats aren't great though - I actually find them worse than the standard ones.

 

[Hadders]

The bargain basement interiors of the 700s is awful. We should expect better. Travellers on my local line are not happy with the 700s.

Not only are the seats uncomfortable they are too narrow and close together.
Insufficient leg room
Lack of seat back tables - now being retrofitted following complaints (we were originally we couldn't have these because they made the train too heavy - clearly incorrect)

What is needed was a class 365 style layout (not an exact replica but something along the same style).

 

[Failed Unit]

It is interesting that in the past TOCs tested the seats in service.

Virgin reseated a MK3 coach.
The prototype sprinter had lots of different seats fitted.

I wonder if Thameslink had fitted some 319s with different seats if we would have the ironing boards now? Even on the 1 coach of each time they would have noticed passengers avoiding certain seats unless the train was full.

Saying that, doing this makes no difference if feedback isnt acted upon. (Northern). But a test in a mock-up at a station isn’t a good way to judge comfort compared to 45 mins on a real journey. Also gives the TOC real experience of how easy they are to clean etc.

Sadly we are stuck with thousands of uncomfortable seats for many years. Hopefully not to late to get a decent seat on the 717.

 

[amcluesent]

I see the Daily Mail has picked up the story - Passengers are encouraged to bring their own CUSHIONS on new train service after commuters liken seats to concrete

 

[class387]

Just seen this in today's Metro:

 

[Failed Unit]

Are these the same seats that are on the 387s? Sitting on a window seat on a 387 is better than sitting on a window seat of a 700. Probably because they have a gap so you don’t need to at an angle.

Although understand why they couldn’t have armrests on the 700s. 387s don’t crush load well

Before anyone asks no I don’t like the seats on the 387. Really choosing between a 387 is like asking if I want my left hand chopped or or my right hand. You want neither but if you have to choose go for least painful.

They hit more great northern services this morning. People may be happy to stand.

 

[Failed Unit]

Just seen this in today's Metro:

View attachment 42969

I have never actually seen vandalism of seats as a serious problem on any of the routes I use. (In various parts of the country.). Sometimes I worry about GTR - I think the believe the rubbish they quote. Someone should challenge them on these statements.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

NB., the spec for the C700 seats/layouts was agreed with DfT rather than GTR and its predecessors. But the later generations of Electrostars (honourable exception for London Overground) have pretty spartan interiors as well....

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 1st seats aren't great though - I actually find them worse than the standard ones.

Me too. The contouring pushes you against the wall.

 

[Bletchleyite]

NB., the spec for the C700 seats/layouts was agreed with DfT rather than GTR and its predecessors. But the later generations of Electrostars (honourable exception for London Overground) have pretty spartan interiors as well....

Some of us like those.

 

[PeterC]

I had the misfortune to use a 707 a couple of weeks ago. I am of pretty average build and found the seats uncomfortably narrow. It was only a short trip so the fact that the amount of padding was far below the standard of a modern bus didn't notice so much.

It seems odd that the railway are going down to fomer bus levels of comfort while the bus companies are upgrading to the former rail levels.

 

[DarloRich]

The seats are ok for short distance journeys and I am sure if you are lucky enough to get a seat for a few stops through the Thameslink core they will be no problem. I don't think they are suitable for long distance communing. All of the guff about regulations and vandalism is just a smoke screen for the true reason: Cost. Both the TOC's and DfT are more than happy to scrimp on passenger comfort to save a few quid. We as paying passengers don't count.

Highly likely the reporters got that off this forum via Googling about the seats?

There's probably a fair few reporters amongst the membership anyway.

OR they could have just got on the train, looked at the shape of the seat and thought: that looks like the ironing board stood up against my kitchen wall.

What amazes me the amount of people on here that defend them. Basically say we should stop complaining and accept them. I know we are stuck with them until the midlife refurbishment. But hopefully complaining will at least give us a decent chance they will be reseated.

Because there are many neophyte's who believe anything new is the "best ever". I have said for a long time ( and been attacked by the usual suspects) for daring to say that new trains have less comfortable seats than the trains they replaced.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because there are many neophyte's who believe anything new is the "best ever". I have said for a long time ( and been attacked by the usual suspects) for daring to say that new trains have less comfortable seats than the trains they replaced.

Except not all of us do think that.

The Class 700 is cramped, but it is not really any worse than the Class 319 it replaced. (The ex-Thameslink 319s do have a bit of extra bonus legroom, but then I love how easy it is to move around a packed 700 which has been achieved by squashing the seats together a bit). The Electrostars on Thameslink were never anything other than temporary and should not really enter consideration.

The new Electrostars have more legroom than the originals, and not everyone wants tables, some prefer more privacy. The seats are set higher up which suits me better, being tall.

Though I must admit the Grammer E3000 is a better seat than the ironing board and doesn't give you appreciably less legroom at the same pitch. I have however never seen it anywhere other than a Desiro - is it a Siemens exclusive? It's a bit of a shame it was not chosen for the 700.

Meanwhile, if you do "deep" seats they soon end up with collapsed cushions like the awful Richmond seating found on Northern 153s and 156s. Now *that* is a bad seat.

And yes I've done long distance journeys in ironing boards, East Croydon to Bletchley and East Croydon to Bedford to name two.

 

[DarloRich]

The seats on new trains are not as comfortable as those on the trains they replaced. The seats on a new Thameslink train are not as comfortable as the seats on the old trains they replaced. Whilst they were not great they offered some comfort. The new trains do not. it is perverse to suggest otherwise.

I have no idea what a Grammer E3000.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The seats on new trains are not as comfortable as those on the trains they replaced. The seats on a new Thameslink train are not as comfortable as the seats on the old trains they replaced. Whilst they were not great they offered some comfort. The new trains do not. it is perverse to suggest otherwise.

It's not. I find the Class 700 overall better than the Class 319. You might disagree, as seating comfort is a very personal thing, as are other aspects of whether you like a train or not. It is not perverse to hold that view.

The only thing I prefer the 319 for is the better legroom in the airline seats. But a 319 is grim when it gets packed.

I have no idea what a Grammer E3000.

The standard Desiro seat, you've sat on one many times

 

[DarloRich]

It's not. I find the Class 700 overall better than the Class 319. You might disagree, as seating comfort is a very personal thing, as are other aspects of whether you like a train or not. It is not perverse to hold that view.

The only thing I prefer the 319 for is the better legroom in the airline seats. But a 319 is grim when it gets packed.

I am more than happy to agree that modern trains are better trains than older trains. They are cheaper to run, cheaper to maintain, cheaper to rent, pollute less, breakdown less often, offer a better environment for the cress to work in , technically advanced etc etc

The one area they are not is, generally, seating. My bottom doesn't go to sleep when I travel between London and Edinburgh on East Coast. On West Coast it is asleep very quickly.

The standard Desiro seat, you've sat on one many times

Well just say that then

They seem decent seats. I assume they are the same on TPE?

 

[Hadders]

Are these the same seats that are on the 387s? Sitting on a window seat on a 387 is better than sitting on a window seat of a 700. Probably because they have a gap so you don’t need to at an angle.

Both have ironing boards but the ones in the 387s are better because they are wider, have a bit of space between the window and seat and an armrest.

Standing space on the 387s is poor.

The best compromise would’ve been a 365 style layout which achieves a decent level of comfort with decent standing space.

 

[43096]

Good. Why should they take the blame for a problem they haven't caused?

Maybe not for the 700s and IEPs, but the 387s (as an example) have been spec’d by GTR and GWR.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The one area they are not is, generally, seating. My bottom doesn't go to sleep when I travel between London and Edinburgh on East Coast. On West Coast it is asleep very quickly.

You know the seats on VTEC are newer than the Pendolino seats, right?

The original Mk4 seats were quite thin and were not very comfortable. Curiously I can't find a single photo of the as-built Mk4 interior on the Web.

They seem decent seats. I assume they are the same on TPE?

Yes. There is a wide (most 350s) and narrow (350/2 and other 3+2 ones) version, the narrow version would have worked on the Class 700s.

 

[Envy123]

I find the Class 700 seats to be fine for journeys like St Albans to London. I used to find them uncomfortable for even short hop journeys but now I can sit on them without getting my behind all sore.

Maybe the seats are an acquired feel, for lack of a better term?

 

[MK Tom]

When Govia Thameslink started, didn't they push for armrests and tables on the 700s only to be told it was too late by Siemens? Sure I remember reading that on here. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[physics34]

When Govia Thameslink started, didn't they push for armrests and tables on the 700s only to be told it was too late by Siemens? Sure I remember reading that on here. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I got told they wanted the aisles to be as wide as possible

 

[goblinuser]

I’m confused, if it’s a DFT spec, is this one of those things that would have been fixed by nationalisation?

The DfT is not BR. They have more control now than what they did under BR.