The 'Technologically Unskilled' at TVM Only Stations

[clm]

Having read the last couple of threads devoted to discussing whether or not a card only ticket vending machine constitutes an opportunity to pay (in circumstances where the passenger wishes to pay by cash), another, somewhat similar, matter has been brought to mind.

Some relatives of mine are both over 80, and have no serious problems with mobility and regularly use public transport. However, by the own admission and my observations, are completely incompetent with almost all forms of modern technology. They do not own computers or mobile phones, and find all interaction with such and similar devices impossible to all intents and purposes.

Further to this, even the use of devices with 'simple' interfaces such as cash machines or supermarket self checkout machines is impossible without help, and in general leads to a great amount of stress. As such I have had to assist them on many occasions where the use of such machines has been unavoidable. As someone completely comfortable with such things, I struggle to understand exactly what issues they have with ATMs etc; but make no mistake, they are genuinely flummoxed.

I have no doubt (and have witnessed) that without help, they would be completely unable to use a TVM. I therefore ask your opinion as to whether or not a TVM (to avoid a repeat of other arguments, lets say cash & card) at a station with a closed/no ticket office constitutes an opportunity to pay.

As a further point to consider, they are prone to being unable to remember their debit card PIN numbers, which would render a card only TVM completely unusable even with help (though I don't think this is the thread to consider this issue itself).

 

[LowLevel]

It does, but certainly at my company and I would be surprised if it wasn't the case with others, we are instructed to use discretion with the elderly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having read the last couple of threads devoted to discussing whether or not a card only ticket vending machine constitutes an opportunity to pay (in circumstances where the passenger wishes to pay by cash), another, somewhat similar, matter has been brought to mind.

Some relatives of mine are both over 80, and have no serious problems with mobility and regularly use public transport. However, by the own admission and my observations, are completely incompetent with almost all forms of modern technology. They do not own computers or mobile phones, and find all interaction with such and similar devices impossible to all intents and purposes.

Given how technology is increasingly essential to everyday life, is it time we as a country started finding a way (and funding) to help train such people in its use? (I'm not convinced there is room for "I never needed those new fangled computers, so I won't use them). Also for improvements to the TVM user interface, which by all accounts is very poor, and a further fare simplification to make TVM use more logical.

As a further point to consider, they are prone to being unable to remember their debit card PIN numbers, which would render a card only TVM completely unusable even with help (though I don't think this is the thread to consider this issue itself).

Is this because they avoid using them, or because there is indeed a disability of some kind developing? I'll give you that I am not elderly, but I have an appalling short term memory. However if I use a PIN repeatedly I do remember it.

Neil

 

[clm]

It does, but certainly at my company and I would be surprised if it wasn't the case with others, we are instructed to use discretion with the elderly.

Thanks, it's useful to know the TOCs policy on such matters and relieving to hear that discretion is instructed. Thankfully, at the moment, their local station is unstaffed with no TVM; however things may change or they might need to travel when visiting other relatives where this is not the case. If the need for this ever arises, I think I'll make contact with the relevant TOC beforehand to seek their advice.

Given how technology is increasingly essential to everyday life, is it time we as a country started finding a way (and funding) to help train such people in its use? (I'm not convinced there is room for "I never needed those new fangled computers, so I won't use them).

Some local authorities do attempt this, and I think that it is a very good idea. I'm not entirely sure that you will get anywhere with some people however. For instance, I have spent many hours with my relatives in front of computers and demonstrated ATM use more times than I can remember, yet using either is still impossible without my or someone else's help. I admit that there may be an element of stubbornness here, but they do get visibly distressed in these situations.

Is this because they avoid using them, or because there is indeed a disability of some kind developing? I'll give you that I am not elderly, but I have an appalling short term memory. However if I use a PIN repeatedly I do remember it..

Thankfully, I don't believe there is any disability involved here. I think the issue is that because they can't remember the PIN in the first place, and they can't use ATMs (although chip and pin terminals are just about OK) they don't use the card, thus there is no repeated use of the PIN.

Also for improvements to the TVM user interface, which by all accounts is very poor, and a further fare simplification to make TVM use more logical.

This would definitely help. I have helped foreign tourists at a TVM who (based on their age) I would assume have no issues with technology, however had no idea about which tickets to buy. I could certainly believe that UK residents unfamiliar with the train will experience these issues too.

My personal opinion is that a TVM should NEVER be considered an opportunity to buy, and should merely be an added convenience for those that wish to use them, (I'm well aware that this is not the policy of any TOC) because:

> They can be technologically unusable for some (often but not exclusively the elderly) people, and such difficulties are extremely difficult to prove.
> The complex fare structure in this country means that buying the correct ticket from one can be difficult without advice, leading to many people being overcharged.
> They often (always?) do not sell the whole range of tickets, creating huge problems discussed to death on the forum before.
> They do not take all methods of payment, which can be inconvenient (again, another issue discussed at great length).

As an aside, does anyone feel there is any merit to the argument that as the TVM is unusable to them, it is not an opportunity to buy; in the same way that a broken TVM is also unusable and thus not an opportunity to buy?

 

[yorkie]

I have no doubt (and have witnessed) that without help, they would be completely unable to use a TVM. I therefore ask your opinion as to whether or not a TVM (to avoid a repeat of other arguments, lets say cash & card) at a station with a closed/no ticket office constitutes an opportunity to pay.

Tell you what, before we go any further, why not write to the TOC(s) in question and seek their answer(s)?

As a further point to consider, they are prone to being unable to remember their debit card PIN numbers, which would render a card only TVM completely unusable even with help (though I don't think this is the thread to consider this issue itself).

So they'd be wanting to pay by cash? I think you know my answer to that, and as you say there are separate threads for that.

 

[clm]

Tell you what, before we go any further, why not write to the TOC(s) in question and seek their answer(s)?

As stated before, this is not an immediate issue as their local station (Silverdale) has no TVM. I absolutely agree though that if it gets one, or if they travel and find themselves near a TVM only station, contacting the TOC is the best way to proceed (contacting them now would involve picking a TOC at random making up some hypothetical situation).

So they'd be wanting to pay by cash? I think you know my answer to that, and as you say there are separate threads for that.

Indeed they would and indeed I do, hence why I initially specified a cash & card TVM .

 

[bicbasher]

My suggestion would be if they do require to use the train at this unmanned station if they can ask a relative or trusted neighbour to purchase the tickets on their behalf using the couple's debit/credit card online and then go and collect them from the TVM before hand.

This would save a lot of unnecessary distress at the station.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

My suggestion would be if they do require to use the train at this unmanned station if they can ask a relative or trusted neighbour to purchase the tickets on their behalf using the couple's debit/credit card online and then go and collect them from the TVM before hand.

When a comparable point was reached in another thread, it was suggested that the aged person(s) may benefit from appointing a financial Power of Attorney - i.e. someone who would have the authority to make financial decisions and actions on their behalf and/or under their instructions. It was this thread : Railcard (not valid without signature)

I would suggest that for anyone who has reached their 80's and already has a caring frind or relative nearby providing practical assistance, then this should be considered immediately.

 

[clm]

Indeed. I have purchased Advance tickets for them in the past (using my card) and collected them myself (at Lancaster), then been paid back in cash.

Thanks for making me aware of the possibility of the appointment of a financial Power of Attorney DaveNewcastle, I will indeed consider this for them as it may be more convenient for me than what we currently do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My suggestion would be if they do require to use the train at this unmanned station if they can ask a relative or trusted neighbour to purchase the tickets on their behalf using the couple's debit/credit card online and then go and collect them from the TVM before hand.

This would save a lot of unnecessary distress at the station.

As another option, now connectivity is spreading, might a videophone-based virtual ticket office callable from the ticket machine help in this sort of case? Press the help button, talk to the person, they remotely issue the ticket and take payment by controlling the TVM, confirm it's all OK and then sign off.

Neil

 

[talldave]

As another option, now connectivity is spreading, might a videophone-based virtual ticket office callable from the ticket machine help in this sort of case? Press the help button, talk to the person, they remotely issue the ticket and take payment by controlling the TVM, confirm it's all OK and then sign off.

Neil

That would be a great idea - an application of the "hologram" idea that actually serves some purpose? But it would only work if the person at the other end shared the same native language

As for TVMs, as an electronic engineer myself I find them shameful in their design - the touchscreens are unfit for purpose, the machines seem to be designed for PIN entry by people no taller than 5ft and at Gatwick, the pointless Gatwick Express logo at the top right of the display often obliterates vital details of the ticket you're trying to buy.

If train company management were made to use the machines on a daily basis they'd resolve the issue in no time. As it is, it's another example of how TOCs really don't give a toss about customers.

Oh and if I stand alongside the TVM with a Smartphone, I can buy tickets that the TVM won't sell me and collect them immediately from that very same machine - that's just insane. I mean what bunch of idiots in some management focus group decided that I can buy a ticket for tomorrow, but only if it's after 4pm today? Or if I want to catch the 08:58, the ticket machine will happily sell me the ticket I need from 09:10 onwards???

 

[Baxenden Bank]

As another option, now connectivity is spreading, might a videophone-based virtual ticket office callable from the ticket machine help in this sort of case? Press the help button, talk to the person, they remotely issue the ticket and take payment by controlling the TVM, confirm it's all OK and then sign off.

Neil

An excellent idea, but only if it were answered by someone speaking English to a high standard (or Welsh / Gaelic if preferred) who understood the intricacies of the UK rail network and ticketing system, rather than simply going on-line to a database not much different than that available to the general public!

I disagree with the suggestion of someone having to buy tickets in advance for them every time, then waiting for postal delivery or making a journey to the nearest station with TOD. This significantly reduces their independence, important at this time of their lives. Perhaps they spontaneously want to pop into Lancaster or Grange to do some shopping rather than planning a week ahead! Or some other sudden need such as visiting a health clinic etc. Alternatively, having bought tickets in advance and they decide not to travel because the weather turns bad - they will not get a refund! (unless buying from Southern).

The industry should be making it easier for people to travel, not putting restrictions in the way!

The idea of remote issue is interesting. Does anyone do this? Could that become widespread? Call a GOOD QUALITY, COMPETENT call centre (using own phone or station Freephone/helppoint), the person then determines your travel needs, offers the best ticket, takes your money, then sends details to a local machine for printing - just the sort of service a good ticket office would provide. However, in this specific example, would your relatives struggle with ordering by phone i.e. giving the three digit security number? Similarly some kind of PIN / access code would be necessary to release the tickets. Buying from the guard is much easier!

Assuming your relatives live in Silverdale, Lancashire (other Silverdales are available!) another option would be to have a local agency / ticket machine in one of the village shops or better still the RSPB centre just down the road from the station - several stations in the UK now have independent ticket offices on them. The RSPB would earn a commission on each sale, your relatives could have a chat with someone before catching the train and wait in the warm. The ticket offices at Carnforth and Clitheroe are operated by Lancashire County Council (through some kind of arrangement with Northern) so they may be able to offer advice and support in setting one up if anyone wishes to pursue it. As your relatives are clearly active, are they up for some campaigning / organising - go on, give the Parish Council something useful to talk about instead of litter and dog mess on the 'promenade'.

Another option, the driver of the 'Silverdale Shuttle' bus could be trained up and given a ticket machine, thus creating a proper 'rail-link' bus - as used to exist on several south Wales valleys services a few years back.

Lots of options, lack of willingness from the authorities I suspect.

 

[Abpj17]

I would expect a dose of common sense to be applied - would imagine experienced staff can tell the difference between the genuinely confused/vulnerable and serial fare dodgers.

A practical balance might be buying a ticket online (e.g. you or someone else) and teaching them how to collect tickets (which is a shorter and more predictable series of steps). From memory, no PIN is needed either.

 

[talldave]

I would expect a dose of common sense to be applied - would imagine experienced staff can tell the difference between the genuinely confused/vulnerable and serial fare dodgers.

A practical balance might be buying a ticket online (e.g. you or someone else) and teaching them how to collect tickets (which is a shorter and more predictable series of steps). From memory, no PIN is needed either.

Just the need to insert a credit/debit card without any purchase being made (a completely alien concept for any cardholder, never mind an elderly one) and the stress of grappling with the useless touchscreen to enter an 8 character reference number - which may, on rare occasions, result in a "no booking found" message.....

 

[drbdrb]

I think the issue is that because they can't remember the PIN in the first place, and they can't use ATMs (although chip and pin terminals are just about OK) they don't use the card, thus there is no repeated use of the PIN.

Something the banks don't publicise very well, is that if you are unable to use a Chip & PIN card, they will issue you with a Chip & Signature card.

This can be for many reasons, but includes those who are unable to remember a PIN.

 

[greatkingrat]

Can such a card be used in a TVM?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can such a card be used in a TVM?

I doubt it. But I don't see why anyone who isn't genuinely infirm and in need of advance-booked assistance should fear inserting a bit of plastic and pressing 4 numbers.

TOD, on the other hand, is another matter. But I dislike TOD, as it's a solution to a problem that near enough wouldn't need solving if the railway could be bothered implementing a barcode based ticketing system which would allow print-at-home and m-ticketing. It's also incredibly badly implemented in just about every way. Its problems and unreliability are one reason I very rarely do any Advances.

I've had more thoughts about this - how about designing a genuinely basic UI for a ticket machine for an unstaffed station, which would sell a kind of Permit to Travel for the actual fare to only stations on the branch, fully refundable at the ticket office at an interchange station or on the train but only if presented within 2 hours for another ticket. Simpler than faffing about with excesses. I think most people could cope with the idea of the old Quickfare machines - press the destination, press single/return, put the money in.

If you were au-fait with IT you could press an "expert mode" button which would allow issue of anything valid for immediate travel from that station.

Neil

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I believe that the elderly are covered by current disability discrimination laws and as such guards and revenue staff should make allowances for any genuine cases where a TVM could not be used.

 

[drbdrb]

I doubt it.

Of course they can.

Chip & Signature cards are issued to allow the bank to comply with the DDA.

If companies accepted Chip & PIN but didn't accept C&S cards, they would be breaching the DDA.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I believe that the elderly are covered by current disability discrimination laws and as such guards and revenue staff should make allowances for any genuine cases where a TVM could not be used.

Just to play devils advocate, how is that at all fair?

Ignoring issues such as eye sight etc, there is no reason why an elderly person could not use the TVM. Why should the ToC cater for the fact that some people can't be bothered to learn how to use modern technology?

Now, before anyone jumps on me, I don't actually think that, and do think the elderly should be given some leeway. But just because someone is old, it does not mean they may be trying to break the law and avoid paying.

 

[island]

Of course they can.

Chip & Signature cards are issued to allow the bank to comply with the DDA.

If companies accepted Chip & PIN but didn't accept C&S cards, they would be breaching the DDA.

No they would not. The Disability Discrimination Act has been revoked, and banks are not under a legal obligation to issue chip & signature cards. Many do so as a matter of good customer service.

That small matter aside, of course a sensible face to face merchant will accept a chip & signature card as readily as a chip & PIN card; aside from the possibility of committing indirect discrimination contrary to the Equalities Act (although this is by no means certain), it would be terrible customer service and probably run this risk of getting written up in the Daily Fail.

But that is not the point. A TVM is not a face to face merchant and cannot capture, much less verify, a cardholder's signature. This combined with a signature-preferring card could result any number of results, depending on the precise programming of the chip and the TVM. These include:

• The cardholder getting prompted for a PIN anyway, as he would at an ATM
• The TVM declining the card completely
• The TVM accepting the card without any cardholder verification method
• The TVM accepting transactions only up to a certain amount, such as £20

As to the wider question of whether elderly people can operate a TVM competently: no differently to the general population, some are, some aren't. The proportions may be different, but those with genuine difficulties may wish to obtain a Disabled Person's Railcard to avoid having to rely on staff discretion. A hard rule isn't the answer because it will inevitably leave out some who would currently benefit from the aforesaid discretion.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Just to play devils advocate, how is that at all fair?...

How is life at all fair?

....Ignoring issues such as eye sight etc, there is no reason why an elderly person could not use the TVM. Why should the ToC cater for the fact that some people can't be bothered to learn how to use modern technology?...

Ask the EU, I believe it all stems from there.

 

[Hadders]

My personal opinion is that a TVM should NEVER be considered an opportunity to buy, and should merely be an added convenience for those that wish to use them...

I have a degree of sympathy with this position but how would it work in practice if the use of TVM's was not considered an option to purchase a ticket?

Fare evasion would becom rife, especially in urban areas that have busy trains with frequent stops. Guards could not manage to get to everyone wishing to buy a ticket.

What about driver only operated services? How would you buy a ticket if you were to compelled to use the TVM at an unmanned station?

You could have a manned ticket office open at every station from first to last train but how much is that going to cost and how much would fares need to increase to pay for it?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....You could have a manned ticket office open at every station from first to last train but how much is that going to cost and how much would fares need to increase to pay for it?

Indeed, I don't think any stations in Greater Manchester have offices open first to last train, not even Piccadilly, but in any case, most are mornings only I think.

 

[clm]

Hi again,

There's been some really helpful and interesting suggestions and ideas here. Thanks very much!

The idea about having a virtual ticket office function on a TVM is great (alas I feel, unlikely to be implemented), and the local ideas given by Baxenden Bank (yes Silverdale, Lancashire) are also particularly interesting (although my relatives are perfectly happy with the current situation of no station facilities and buying tickets from the guard, it's just if things changed there would be problems).

To answer a few other points:

My experience of them failing to operate a TVM was collecting TOD at Lancaster (when I had bought tickets online for them using their card), so buying tickets online and getting them to collect them wouldn't work in this case, though probably could be manageable if TVMs would consistently not ask for a booking reference (I remember it was once discussed on here why they sometimes do/do not ask for this).

I genuinely feel that this is not solely an issue of them not being bothered to learn how to use modern technology (though I admit, as previously stated, they can sometimes be stubborn about such matters). They have taken a genuine interest in me trying to teach them things and are very keen to learn how to do online shopping for example, but I find we generally get nowhere.

I understand the points you make Hadders, however weren't most stations that now are TVM only previously unstaffed with no facilities? We would simply be returning to that. That said, the 4 reasons I gave explaining why I think TVMs should not be considered an opportunity to pay could all be solved with solutions in this and other threads on the forum. If these were implemented I would have no problem with them remaining an opportunity to pay.

 

[Qwerty133]

Ignoring issues such as eye sight etc, there is no reason why an elderly person could not use the TVM. Why should the ToC cater for the fact that some people can't be bothered to learn how to use modern technology?

I honestly believe there are elderly people who can't learn how to use modern technology, or at least find it very difficult. for example I have an elderly relative who it took years for her to work out how to access channels other than 1-5 (on a tv with built in freeview), despite being shown on numerous occasions (and still will only use about 10 channels and can't access the guide ETC).

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'm sorry to say that this line of reasoning isn't going to get anywhere:

My personal opinion is that a TVM should NEVER be considered an opportunity to buy, and should merely be an added convenience for those that wish to use them, (I'm well aware that this is not the policy of any TOC) because:

> They can be technologically unusable for some (often but not exclusively the elderly) people, and such difficulties are extremely difficult to prove.
> The complex fare structure in this country means that buying the correct ticket from one can be difficult without advice, leading to many people being overcharged.
> They often (always?) do not sell the whole range of tickets, creating huge problems discussed to death on the forum before.
> They do not take all methods of payment, which can be inconvenient (again, another issue discussed at great length).

It is a matter of fact that a TVM does provide an opportunity to pay, much as a tain provides an opportunity to travel. Niether are always going to be convenient, and both are entirely at the choice of the person travelling - BUT, what is not in dispute is that a person intending to travel should pay their fare before doing so (where and in a manner that is possible).
Usually, a TVM machine offering appropriate tickets and a train travelling towards their destination will both be provided. The person should pay. Other permutations are possible, and these can be dealt with by alternative arrangements, but it cannot be claimed that the TVM did not present an opportunity to pay the fare due where it is a matter of fact that it did.

 

[TEW]

Aside from people holding a Disabled Persons Railcard I have only had one person claim that they were unable to use the ticket machine because they didn't understand it. And guess where they went to buy their ticket when I sent them to buy one, yes, the machine!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If companies accepted Chip & PIN but didn't accept C&S cards, they would be breaching the DDA.

That doesn't mean the TVMs have to accept them - Pay at Pump petrol stations don't either. In both cases you would presumably not have passed an opportunity to pay, and thus would pay at the first staffed opportunity.

Though I don't know how that squares with the (relatively few in the UK[1]) fully automated petrol stations.

[1] Largely because coffees, food and stuff are far more profitable than fuel, so to make the most money from a petrol station site you *need* the staffed shop.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You could have a manned ticket office open at every station from first to last train but how much is that going to cost and how much would fares need to increase to pay for it?

Ask Merseyrail. Except the few stations beyond Hooton, that is precisely what they *do* have. Fares aren't unduly high, though the network does receive heavy subsidy.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm sorry to say that this line of reasoning isn't going to get anywhere:It is a matter of fact that a TVM does provide an opportunity to pay

It doesn't if...
1. You are disabled such that you cannot use it
2. You don't carry a method of payment it accepts.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I honestly believe there are elderly people who can't learn how to use modern technology, or at least find it very difficult. for example I have an elderly relative who it took years for her to work out how to access channels other than 1-5 (on a tv with built in freeview), despite being shown on numerous occasions (and still will only use about 10 channels and can't access the guide ETC).

I'm genuinely not convinced. Find it difficult, yes, but that's one for UI designers to look at (the UI on all UK ticket machines is without exception appalling, and I as an IT professional find it awkward and clunky). But there is no substantial evolutionary difference between me and my Dad (one generation isn't enough for a major shift) and he started out completely incompetent at using his PC when I first supplied him with one when his Amstrad PCW (glorified electric typewriter) broke, and a competent user 5 years later.

Meanwhile anyone not learning how to use IT is going to find themselves locked out of basic public, Government and commercial services.

Neil

 

[hairyhandedfool]

...It doesn't if...
1. You are disabled such that you cannot use it....

Only if they are travelling alone, or where all the others are equally unable to use them (for this purpose, unable and unwilling are not the same thing).

...2. You don't carry a method of payment it accepts....

Debatable point.

A fully operational ticket office five years ago would not have been in a position to accept an Electron card (there are probably some that still can't), but this would still have been an opportunity to pay even if the traveller only had an Electron card available to them.