The 'Technologically Unskilled' at TVM Only Stations

[Bletchleyite]

Only if they are travelling alone, or where all the others are equally unable to use them (for this purpose, unable and unwilling are not the same thing).

True.

A fully operational ticket office five years ago would not have been in a position to accept an Electron card (there are probably some that still can't), but this would still have been an opportunity to pay even if the traveller only had an Electron card available to them.

I know we have seen some strict interpretations of this, but do you genuinely believe that if a station has a card-only TVM, it is prohibited to travel from there if you possess only cash (e.g. you have a basic bank account) because to do so you would be passing an opportunity to pay?

I *suspect* any TOC taking this line would be in breach of their franchise agreement and would not win a court case.

The railway did not used to accept Electron/Solo, and made this very clear, so that's different from cash (or credit/debit card) which is a stated accepted method of payment.

Neil

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I did say it was a debatable point. I wasn't trying to express an opinion there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I did say it was a debatable point. I wasn't trying to express an opinion there.

Ah, fair enough.

Neil

 

[Llanigraham]

Neil,
I suggest you talk to some Post Office clerks about the problems they have with old people and their electronic cards. They have caused no end of problems, mostly with old people forgetting their PIN's.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suggest you talk to some Post Office clerks about the problems they have with old people and their electronic cards. They have caused no end of problems, mostly with old people forgetting their PIN's.

Does that just need a bit of education and assistance in how to change them to something memorable? I bet most elderly people who don't have serious memory issues such that they need assistance taking a train journey will be able to remember something like their own year of birth, which given that any assailant stealing a card (a) has no idea that that is what they have done, or (b) has no idea what it is either is probably secure enough, and reasonably practical.

Neil

 

[drbdrb]

That doesn't mean the TVMs have to accept them - Pay at Pump petrol stations don't either.

All the Pay at Pump petrol stations I have ever used have quite happily accepted my Chip & Signature cards.

 

[Bletchleyite]

All the Pay at Pump petrol stations I have ever used have quite happily accepted my Chip & Signature cards.

Presumably they are accepted with no verification at all in the manner of contactless[1]? At whose risk is that?

[1] If such people can get over technophobia, contactless is probably a very good answer to the majority of transactions made on a day to day basis. Elderly people tend to live a relatively local life.

Neil

 

[drbdrb]

No they would not. The Disability Discrimination Act has been revoked, and banks are not under a legal obligation to issue chip & signature cards. Many do so as a matter of good customer service.

That small matter aside, of course a sensible face to face merchant will accept a chip & signature card as readily as a chip & PIN card; aside from the possibility of committing indirect discrimination contrary to the Equalities Act (although this is by no means certain), it would be terrible customer service and probably run this risk of getting written up in the Daily Fail.

But that is not the point. A TVM is not a face to face merchant and cannot capture, much less verify, a cardholder's signature. This combined with a signature-preferring card could result any number of results, depending on the precise programming of the chip and the TVM. These include:

• The cardholder getting prompted for a PIN anyway, as he would at an ATM
• The TVM declining the card completely
• The TVM accepting the card without any cardholder verification method
• The TVM accepting transactions only up to a certain amount, such as £20

As to the wider question of whether elderly people can operate a TVM competently: no differently to the general population, some are, some aren't. The proportions may be different, but those with genuine difficulties may wish to obtain a Disabled Person's Railcard to avoid having to rely on staff discretion. A hard rule isn't the answer because it will inevitably leave out some who would currently benefit from the aforesaid discretion.

The Payments Council disagrees with you, and I would sooner take their view than a random person on the Internet - http://www.paymentscouncil.org.uk/current_projects/chip_and_signature/

The page mentions that all retailers must accept Chip & Signature cards as a "reasonable adjustment".

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Payments Council disagrees with you, and I would sooner take their view than a random person on the Internet - http://www.paymentscouncil.org.uk/current_projects/chip_and_signature/

The page mentions that all retailers must accept Chip & Signature cards as a "reasonable adjustment".

What it doesn't cover is the situation of TVMs, where it is not feasible to electronically verify the signature.

A more sensible "reasonable adjustment", given that these cards are only given to those who need them, may be that presenting a chip and signature card on board or at the destination for payment is not considered as having passed an opportunity to pay, where the only opportunity to pay at the origin was a TVM. You could perhaps also extend that to holders of Disabled Persons Railcards.

Neil

 

[drbdrb]

You could, but they don't.

If the train company has taken a decision to operate unmanned card machines, then it must accept C&S cards as a "reasonable adjustment". Anything else would be discrimination.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You could, but they don't.

If the train company has taken a decision to operate unmanned card machines, then it must accept C&S cards as a "reasonable adjustment". Anything else would be discrimination.

Do you have a reference for this? Reasonable adjustment is a rather subjective matter and can in the end only be decided by a Court in the event of a legal case (though obviously there may be some precedent).

An example is that it is probably reasonable adjustment to add a wheelchair ramp to a modern shop, but many older buildings or those where there is not room have a sign outside saying that if you press a button the staff will come to serve a wheelchair user outside.

Neil

 

[drbdrb]

The reference is the page from the Payments Council that I previously mentioned, which says "All retailers are obliged to accept chip and signature cards as a ‘reasonable adjustment’ to meet the terms of the 2010 Equality Act".

If placing your PIN machine too high so that short people have to stand on a box is a breach of the Equality Act, then prohibiting people from travelling as they cannot operate a PIN machine certainly is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The reference is the page from the Payments Council that I previously mentioned, which says "All retailers are obliged to accept chip and signature cards as a ‘reasonable adjustment’ to meet the terms of the 2010 Equality Act".

If placing your PIN machine too high so that short people have to stand on a box is a breach of the Equality Act, then prohibiting people from travelling as they cannot operate a PIN machine certainly is.

I didn't suggest anyone would be prohibited from travel, merely that if someone with a C&S card who passed a ticket machine not accepting it would not be considered as passing an opportunity to pay, and thus would be able to pay at the pre-boarding rate at their destination on board. Which is not only not worse than using a card TVM, it's arguably better.

Neil

 

[drbdrb]

I didn't suggest anyone would be prohibited from travel, merely that if someone with a C&S card who passed a ticket machine not accepting it would not be considered as passing an opportunity to pay, and thus would be able to pay at the pre-boarding rate at their destination on board. Which is not only not worse than using a card TVM, it's arguably better.

But the point is, those are not the current rules, which are "no ticket = can't travel".

So currently if the train company did not allow someone to use a C&S card to buy a ticket, then they would be prohibiting them from travelling.

A lot of people do not think about the multiple reasons why someone may not be able to use Chip & PIN, and it is not a simple as not being able to remember a PIN.

Changing the rules to prohibit someone using their C&S card to buy a ticket, but require them to find someone to buy a ticket onboard or at their destination would arguably make things worse for that person, akin to making a short person stand on a box.

To give one example, if you are blind you may not be able to use a Chip & PIN machine because all the PIN pads are different. Do you really think it fair that blind person now needs to navigate their way through a crowded commuter train to find someone to buy a ticket from. Someone they cannot see.

 

[island]

The reference is the page from the Payments Council that I previously mentioned, which says "All retailers are obliged to accept chip and signature cards as a ‘reasonable adjustment’ to meet the terms of the 2010 Equality Act".

If placing your PIN machine too high so that short people have to stand on a box is a breach of the Equality Act, then prohibiting people from travelling as they cannot operate a PIN machine certainly is.

You have quoted one possible interpretation from one particular body, and one which is not written with automatic ticket vending machines in mind. It seems of limited relevance to the point at hand.

Additionally, you are assuming that a chip & signature card won't be accepted at a TVM. That is one of several possibilities that I suggested; why did you ignore the others?

Incidentally, the forum staff will verify if needed that I am far from a "random person on the internet".

 

[drbdrb]

I would still prefer to listen to the Payments Council who "is the body with responsibility for ensuring that payment services work for all those that use them in the UK" than someone I don't know on the Internet.

Additionally I am assuming that C&S cards will work at an unmanned ticket machine, the same as I know that they work at unmanned petrol pumps.

Are you suggesting that C&S cardholders should be prohibited from travelling if there is only an unmanned machine?

 

[island]

I would still prefer to listen to the Payments Council who "is the body with responsibility for ensuring that payment services work for all those that use them in the UK" than someone I don't know on the Internet.

Additionally I am assuming that C&S cards will work at an unmanned ticket machine, the same as I know that they work at unmanned petrol pumps.

Are you suggesting that C&S cardholders should be prohibited from travelling if there is only an unmanned machine?

No, I am not.

If chip & signature cards work at a TVM, which I suspect they do, then where is the problem?

 

[Starmill]

Incidentally, the forum staff will verify if needed that I am far from a "random person on the internet".

With respect, everyone is technically just a random person in some capacity or other! Specific guarantees made by the forum staff about individuals are rare, perhaps rightly so. Nonetheless having briefly met you on one occasion - I'm not sure if you remember me, I would say that you are at the very least entirely respectable as is in keeping with your posting style I think somebody referred to you the other day as one of our resident 'banking bods' - should you be satisfied with such a summary!

 

[Bletchleyite]

But the point is, those are not the current rules, which are "no ticket = can't travel".

No, they aren't. The current rules are that you must use an opportunity to pay that you pass if you wish to travel. If you do not have with you a method of payment accepted at a TVM you pass, you have not passed an opportunity to pay. (Some TOCs are less strict than even this - this is the strictest interpretation on any National Rail TOC).

So currently if the train company did not allow someone to use a C&S card to buy a ticket, then they would be prohibiting them from travelling.

No, it wouldn't.

To give one example, if you are blind you may not be able to use a Chip & PIN machine because all the PIN pads are different. Do you really think it fair that blind person now needs to navigate their way through a crowded commuter train to find someone to buy a ticket from. Someone they cannot see.

It is not generally practical to find the guard to buy a ticket, and again nobody really interprets it that way - the usual way it works is that you have to attract the guard's attention when he says "tickets please". If he doesn't you again have not passed an opportunity to pay.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The reference is the page from the Payments Council that I previously mentioned, which says "All retailers are obliged to accept chip and signature cards as a ‘reasonable adjustment’ to meet the terms of the 2010 Equality Act".

It says "all retailers are obliged to accept chip and signature cards". It does not say "all points of payment the retailer has are obliged to accept chip and signature cards".

Provided someone with a C&S card can pay for their travel in some way without penalty, I can't see why paying at a manned opportunity at a later stage is not complying with that rule, any more than a cash-only TVM would fail to comply with it.

If it were not complying, then all TVMs would have to have facilities for blind and deafblind users, which they don't.

Neil

 

[greatkingrat]

This site which is also from the Payments Council says "Chip and signature cards are not currently accepted at self-service check-out machines in places like supermarkets and petrol stations."

 

[island]

This site which is also from the Payments Council says "Chip and signature cards are not currently accepted at self-service check-out machines in places like supermarkets and petrol stations."

...which is also wrong. I have seen one used at my local Sainsbury's; it prompts for an attendant to come and verify the customer's signature.

 

[Bletchleyite]

...which is also wrong. I have seen one used at my local Sainsbury's; it prompts for an attendant to come and verify the customer's signature.

Which works fine where there *are* attendants, but not for an unattended TVM, which is why I would suggest a more "reasonable adjustment" would be to allow purchase on board or from staff at the destination to anyone wishing to use such a card for payment or with any other disability, e.g. blindness, which would preclude the use of a TVM.

Neil

 

[DaveNewcastle]

There's a lot of speculation and opinion on this thread and I'll not participate; but these two points might be of assistance:

• The sale of railway tickets by a Train Operator is not a 'retail' activity.
  
• Section 20 of The Equality Act is clear in qualifying its requirements: it refers to "substantial disadvantages" and to "such steps as is reasonable to have to take to avoid the disadvantage".

Carry on!

 

[island]

Which works fine where there *are* attendants, but not for an unattended TVM, which is why I would suggest a more "reasonable adjustment" would be to allow purchase on board or from staff at the destination to anyone wishing to use such a card for payment or with any other disability, e.g. blindness, which would preclude the use of a TVM.

Neil

And in practice I suspect that would work out just fine.

Less clear is the entitlements and likely treatment of passengers who are not affected by a disability as defined in legislation, but who have not acquainted themselves with the methods of operation of "modern technology" such as touch screen TVMs, or the like.

 

[jon0844]

I think ATOC needs to sort out TVM software (and also TVM designs) to standardise things properly and also make the accessible to all - not just tall people OR people in wheelchairs.

And ATMs are often poor too, with inconsistent UIs (even if the basic principles are the same) and could do with tidying up.

It's not difficult, but could be expensive (at least in the short term).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think ATOC needs to sort out TVM software (and also TVM designs) to standardise things properly and also make the accessible to all - not just tall people OR people in wheelchairs.

I predict a problem when my generation and the ones after it get old. Old people can often not bend over due to back pain, yet screens, door buttons etc are increasingly at the height where a six-footer has to do so.

I think in the long run it will be necessary to either have two screens/sets of buttons/card slots, or to have two TVMs, one at a wheelchair height and one at a standing-average-height-adult height.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Less clear is the entitlements and likely treatment of passengers who are not affected by a disability as defined in legislation, but who have not acquainted themselves with the methods of operation of "modern technology" such as touch screen TVMs, or the like.

I think that is an issue that society will have to address very soon indeed. Training provided on the use of increasingly simple IT (give or take crap TVM UIs, which need improving whatever) for free at suitable locations etc. But those who *refuse* to learn to use IT will increasingly be shut out of society, and that will be their own decision.

I think the proposal to abolish cheques (which I personally feel should have gone ahead, to be replaced with bank transfers on the German model - if you *must* use paper fill in a slip and take to *your* bank - much cheaper to run!) was just the start.

Neil

 

[Llanigraham]

I think the proposal to abolish cheques (which I personally feel should have gone ahead, to be replaced with bank transfers on the German model - if you *must* use paper fill in a slip and take to *your* bank - much cheaper to run!) was just the start.

Neil

And what happens when there is no local Bank branch?
We used to have 3 banks here, now have 1, and the future of that is doubtful. If that goes, and it is becoming increasingly common in rural areas, we have a 32 mile round trip to the nearest town that does have banks, with typically poor rural bus services.

One of the problems with this forum is that too many members are very urban-centric, and forget the rural population.

 

[stephy]

Rural life, it seems, is dying out to be fair

 

[Bletchleyite]

And what happens when there is no local Bank branch?

Learn to use a computer or a telephone. You can't have it both ways. If you want city services, live in a city. If you want rural idyll (or employment), live in a rural area but accept that you will have to use technology to obtain services available in person in cities, or travel to the cities for them at your cost.

Neil

 

[Llanigraham]

Learn to use a computer or a telephone. You can't have it both ways. If you want city services, live in a city. If you want rural idyll (or employment), live in a rural area but accept that you will have to use technology to obtain services available in person in cities, or travel to the cities for them at your cost.

Neil

I can, otherwise i wouldn't be here, but this thread is about the aged or technically "challenged" who cannot.

And I actually find your posting quite objectionable, because you seem totally unable to recognise that there are many people in this country who are aged, or technically unable to use computers, or may not even own one. It also seems that you do not realise that people have to live outside URBAN areas, (not just cities), as believe it or not, we in the countryside also produce things that you urbanites might actually need, like food.

Strikes me you need to work with some of the older, less able, non-urban people to realise what life is really like. I also suspect that you are young and idealistic.