The track connection between Bakerloo and Jubilee Line at Baker Street

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RWMarcus

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Good evening folks, I hope you are doing well.

I have a question about the Bakerloo and Jubilee Line. Both lines meet at Baker Street, where you have connections between the two railroads/tunnels.
I would like to know if the (nowadays connection) tunnels (northbound and southbound) were used when the Bakerloo still went all the way up to Stanmore. In a video it looks like the tunnel between Baker Street and Marylebone had to be dug new when the tunnels for the Jubilee Line were dug. Did they also dig some new connection tunnels between the two lines? The northbound connection tunnel must change the height, because it has to cross the two Bakerloo Line tunnels from and to Marylebone. I would say that this is an evidence that the connection tunnels were dug with the expansion towards Marylebone. I hope you can follow me with my descriptions.
Is there a track plan of Baker Street from the time when the Bakerloo took the way up to Stanmore? I think they had to dig some new tunnels to put the Jubilee into Baker Street and seperate it from the Bakerloo. In Train Sim World you can see that the northbound connection tunnel takes a weird way. There it seems that the tunnel will never hit the northbound Jubilee Line tunnel. I think that the developer also didn't know the correct way of the northbound connection tunnel between Bakerloo and Jubilee Line.

Thank you in advance!
 

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Gloster

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The following is based on the Quail Track Diagrams from 2002 and the fourth edition of the London Railway Atlas. NB. The Bakerloo line at Baker Street runs roughly east-west, with southbound trains to Elephant & Castle actually running very slightly north of east at that point.

Up to 1979 all northbound trains to both Queens Park and Stanmore called at the same platform at Baker Street, the one that is still used by trains to Queens Park. Trains to Queens Park continued straight on, but those to Stanmore diverged to the left and then crossed over both Queens Park lines. This last section of line is available for stock transfers.

Southbound Bakerloo trains had separate platforms (roughly) alongside each other. Trains from Queens Park ran into the platform they still use, while those from Stanmore called at the platform alongside and to the north. The two lines converged at points just east of the station.

For the opening of the Jubilee a new platform was built further north, from which the northbound ran westward in a new tunnel, crossed the (now) southbound Jubilee and joined the old line to Stanmore at the north end of what became the connection for stock transfers. The southbound line from Stanmore was diverted into a new tunnel, the start of the Jubilee line, immediately beyond the end of the platform; the connection to the line from Queens Park was retained for stock transfers.
 

RWMarcus

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Thanks for the answer. You described it very good.

Another quick question: The second thing I did when I opened cartometro was to look for connections of the Northern Line to the network. But I couldn't find any connection. Does the Northern Line have a connection to the national rail network?
 

Snow1964

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Yes, there is a connection from Northern to Piccadilly lines.

Starts from Kings Cross (just west of Piccadilly line line platform) and joins Northern before Euston. Euston had a siding and one large tunnel with island platform prior to Victoria line. A deviation was built to allow cross platform interchange, but the larger tunnels are clearly visible west of Euston.

The Northern City line had a stock transfer ramp at Drayton Park, it was rebuilt in 1970s when the Moorgate line transferred to BR

There was also a connection once the Northern was extended to Finchley (and part of this line is still in use to Highgate sidings) to LNER line which was taken over.
 
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Gloster

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Starts from Kings Cross (just west of Piccadilly line line platform) and joins Northern before Euston
From the Eastbound Piccadilly to the Northbound Northern City Branch. The line is bi-directional, but a reversal is required to get on to it from either line.
 

matt_world2004

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Good evening folks, I hope you are doing well.

I have a question about the Bakerloo and Jubilee Line. Both lines meet at Baker Street, where you have connections between the two railroads/tunnels.
I would like to know if the (nowadays connection) tunnels (northbound and southbound) were used when the Bakerloo still went all the way up to Stanmore. In a video it looks like the tunnel between Baker Street and Marylebone had to be dug new when the tunnels for the Jubilee Line were dug. Did they also dig some new connection tunnels between the two lines? The northbound connection tunnel must change the height, because it has to cross the two Bakerloo Line tunnels from and to Marylebone. I would say that this is an evidence that the connection tunnels were dug with the expansion towards Marylebone. I hope you can follow me with my descriptions.
Is there a track plan of Baker Street from the time when the Bakerloo took the way up to Stanmore? I think they had to dig some new tunnels to put the Jubilee into Baker Street and seperate it from the Bakerloo. In Train Sim World you can see that the northbound connection tunnel takes a weird way. There it seems that the tunnel will never hit the northbound Jubilee Line tunnel. I think that the developer also didn't know the correct way of the northbound connection tunnel between Bakerloo and Jubilee Line.

Thank you in advance!
The jubilee line in one direction uses a former bakerloo line tunnel at baker Street and the bakerloo line in one direction uses new tunnels This was to facilitate cross platform interchange at baker Street possible they used the connection between the two.lines to reverse trains.
 

100andthirty

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The northbound Jubilee platform is the new one set at the same level as the northbound Bakerloo platform for cross platform interchange as others have said. The tunnel carries on north intersecting the former Bakerloo tunnel some distance on the way to Swiss Cottage. Southbound a junction was built immediately to the south of the Jubilee (former Bakerloo) platform. As others have said, Carto Metro shows this clearly.
 

Taunton

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How was the connection from the Piccadilly to the Northern* actually built? I believe it was in the 1970s. Was there a shaft somewhere and all the excavations hauled out through there? Was there a TBM or was it hand dig? Given that when the most recent tie-in on the Underground, the T5 extension, seemed to require the Heathrow Loop to be closed for a whole year to make the new connections, how much disruption was there to the Piccadilly and Northern? It's quite a length, must have been a considerable project.

The tie-in from the Bakerloo to the Jubilee at Baker Street must have been done at about the same time, around 1977. I don't recall any disruption to the Bakerloo Stanmore service either.

* : Correction
 
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RWMarcus

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How was the connection from the Piccadilly to the Jubilee actually built?
Is there a connection between Jubilee and Piccadilly Line? I think the only connection is possible when changing to the Bakerloo Line at Baker Street and heading to Acton after using a junction at Kensal Green.
 

100andthirty

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Taunton - according to Wikipedia, citing the late Mike Horne - a transport historian of some note - the connection between the Piccadilly and Northern was built in 1927. I might be wrong but I don't believe TBMs were available then.
 

Dstock7080

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Taunton - according to Wikipedia, citing the late Mike Horne - a transport historian of some note - the connection between the Piccadilly and Northern was built in 1927. I might be wrong but I don't believe TBMs were available then.
“The Piccadilly Tube - a history of the first 100 years” Mike Horne
 

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Lewlew

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Is there a connection between Jubilee and Piccadilly Line? I think the only connection is possible when changing to the Bakerloo Line at Baker Street and heading to Acton after using a junction at Kensal Green.
That's Network Rail territory and the line after the junction (at Willesden Junction/Kensal Rise) is electrified with overhead lines. If going from the Jubilee to Piccadilly, you'd go from Wembley Park to Harrow on the Hill, Rayner's Lane, then reverse towards Acton.
 

317 forever

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How was the connection from the Piccadilly to the Northern* actually built? I believe it was in the 1970s. Was there a shaft somewhere and all the excavations hauled out through there? Was there a TBM or was it hand dig? Given that when the most recent tie-in on the Underground, the T5 extension, seemed to require the Heathrow Loop to be closed for a whole year to make the new connections, how much disruption was there to the Piccadilly and Northern? It's quite a length, must have been a considerable project.

The tie-in from the Bakerloo to the Jubilee at Baker Street must have been done at about the same time, around 1977. I don't recall any disruption to the Bakerloo Stanmore service either.

* : Correction

There needed to be a connection between the Northern and Piccadilly Lines by then. In 1976-78 the 1959 stock was transferred from the latter to the former. I think there had previously been movement of occasional 1938 stock units too.
 

AlbertBeale

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Besides stock movements, the Picc-Northern link is used by engineering trains at night.

Years back when I was quite often at Kings Cross underground station near "last train" times, I sometimes saw engineering trains on the eastbound Picc platform, in between the last trains. Including sometimes coming from (or reversing into) the tunnel link to/from the N/B (City Branch) Northern line.
 

rogercov

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Besides stock movements, the Picc-Northern link is used by engineering trains at night.
Looking at the Piccadilly Line working timetable (July 2020) there are 6 slots departing from Uxbridge siding from around 23:30 at 5-10 minute intervals which run into Kings Cross and reverse onto the Northern Line. They are marked "RR" (runs when required). I'm not sure how often they actually happen. There are similar ones in the opposite direction early in the morning.
Interestingly, I haven't managed to find them in the corresponding Northern Line timetable, so it looks like they disappear down a black hole - literally :lol:
 

LU_timetabler

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Those RR paths are there for engineering trains to book slots across Met, Picc and District lines in order for night time engineering trains to reach Picc, District, Northern or Victoria Lines.
Engineering trains for the Met, Jub, Bakerloo and Circle/H&C will generally run via the Met main through Harrow.
Nearly all engineering trains start from Ruislip depot.

To be clear transfers between lines are as follows:-
Bakerloo to/from Jub connection at Baker Street
Jub to/from Met connection at Neasden/Wembley area
Met to/from Picc connection at Rayners Lane
Met to BR at Amersham
Bakerloo to BR at Watford Jcn (via London Overground line from Harrow & Wealdstone)
Picc to/from Vic at Finsbury Park
Picc to/from Northern at Kings Cross/Euston loops
Picc to/from District at Acton Town and Hammersmith
All LU lines (except W&C) to/from Central via Ruislip Depot. (There is no District/Central connection at Ealing Broadway, this was removed some years ago.)

72 stock transfer paths from Stonebridge Park depot to Acton Works is probably one of the most complex stock movements regularly undertaken.
 

Rogmi

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Thanks for the answer. You described it very good.

Another quick question: The second thing I did when I opened cartometro was to look for connections of the Northern Line to the network. But I couldn't find any connection. Does the Northern Line have a connection to the national rail network?
The connection between the Northern and Piccadilly lines at Kings Cross has been mentioned, but you may not be able to easily see it on the CartoMetro map unless you zoom in close because most of the Piccadilly end of the connection is hidden under the sub-surface station.
Look for "Kings Cross loop" at the Northern line and follow it under the SS station to where it joins the Picc.

Access to the KX loop from the Northern line is via the Euston loop (the original NB running line until it was diverted)
Access from SB Northern line - via Euston loop then signal to the KX loop
Access from NB Northern line - depart KX NB and stop at the northern end of Euston loop. Reverse, then signal to KX loop

Reversing at Euston
S - N
The KX loop is also using as a means of S - N reversing for Northern line trains (think of it as an open-ended siding). The train would detrain at Euston SB, enter the Euston loop, wait for the signal into the KX loop and then stop at L22 - the last signal before the Piccadilly line. Reverse.
Trains from KX loop can be routed either into Euston NB platform or into the Euston loop and then to Euston SB platform to reverse.

N-S
The Euston loop is also used as a means of N - S reversing for Northern line trains. Under the old signalling system, it was a via colour light signals and passengers could be taken from KX NB via the Euston loop to Euston SB. In practice, passengers were normally detrained t KX to wait for the next train


Access to the KX loop from the Piccadilly line is via a shunt signal from the WB end of the EB platform.
Access from the KX loop to the Piccadilly line is via loop outlet colour signal L22 which is the last signal before arriving at the EB platform
Piccadilly line trains cannot reverse in the KX loop (no point, because they can only be routed back into the EB platform).

[signal details assume that nothing has changed since I was last there!]

Because of the scale of the map, some of the details are small and can only be clearly seen as you zoom in. If you haven't done so already, you may find it easier to work from the downloadable PDF map as I find that gives a greater flexibility when scrolling around in a PDF format than online as the whole map can be displayed and then the wanted area can just be zoomed into. The PDF map also has a higher zoom rate (max 6400%!).

Downloadable map (select High Definition map):

edit 130221 - Loop moves amended + added
 
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mark-h

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On the Carto-Metro map there is a more detailed version of Kings Cross-St Pancras at the top of the map to the right of the title.

If you are using Firefox then the PDF map is not displayed at full resolution (seems to be ok in Adobe Reader, Chrome and Edge)
 
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