The two routes to the Cambrian

[Philip]

Do you think the decision-makers at the time chose the wrong line to close, between England and Welshpool?

Ideally both would have remained open, however, the line they chose to close was the Whitchurch-Ellesmere-Oswestry-Welshpool route; the line they kept was the sparse Shrewsbury-Welshpool line. A lot of railway connectivity within northern Shropshire was lost with this decision - Ellesmere and Oswestry are both sizeable towns and would have benefited in retaining rail links to Whitchurch, Crewe, Liverpool and Manchester.

On the other hand, the route in use today provides much quicker journeys from Welshpool & Mid-Wales to Shrewsbury, the West Midlands & London. Has the strong Cambrian to Birmingham market simply developed out of the rail link being retained in the 60s? If Aberystwyth and Pwllheli had kept direct links to Manchester instead of Birmingham at the time of the closures, would Mid-Wales to Manchester/North West be the predominant Cambrian market, rather than to the West Midlands and London?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The Oswestry route was the Cambrian main line, but after the 1923 grouping the GWR developed the Shrewsbury route in preference, with through services to Birmingham and the 'Cambrian Coast Express' to Paddington. Manchester to Aberystwyth via Oswestry and v.v. only had one service per day. It was a fairly easy to decision which line to close in 1965 - Manchester to Aberystwyth passengers could be routed via Shrewsbury - it was only 4.5 miles further and Oswestry passengers would have to be content with Gobowen.

 

[Djgr]

Do you think the decision-makers at the time chose the wrong line to close, between England and Welshpool?

Ideally both would have remained open, however, the line they chose to close was the Whitchurch-Ellesmere-Oswestry-Welshpool route; the line they kept was the sparse Shrewsbury-Welshpool line. A lot of railway connectivity within northern Shropshire was lost with this decision - Ellesmere and Oswestry are both sizeable towns and would have benefited in retaining rail links to Whitchurch, Crewe, Liverpool and Manchester.

On the other hand, the route in use today provides much quicker journeys from Welshpool & Mid-Wales to Shrewsbury, the West Midlands & London. Has the strong Cambrian to Birmingham market simply developed out of the rail link being retained in the 60s? If Aberystwyth and Pwllheli had kept direct links to Manchester instead of Birmingham at the time of the closures, would Mid-Wales to Manchester/North West be the predominant Cambrian market, rather than to the West Midlands and London?

According to Wikipedia, Ellesmere has a population of 3,835 and so bit of a stretch to call it a sizeable town.

 

[The exile]

On the other hand, the route in use today provides much quicker journeys from Welshpool & Mid-Wales to Shrewsbury, the West Midlands & London. Has the strong Cambrian to Birmingham market simply developed out of the rail link being retained in the 60s? If Aberystwyth and Pwllheli had kept direct links to Manchester instead of Birmingham at the time of the closures, would Mid-Wales to Manchester/North West be the predominant Cambrian market, rather than to the West Midlands and London?

The strong West Midlands - Cambrian Ciast market is a railway creation - but long predates the 1960s. While I’m sure a more direct route from Manchester (and through trains) would have encouraged some traffic, the industrial towns and cities of the North West had / have plenty of other bits of seaside that are much easier to get to. Wherever you go from the West Midlands the seaside is quite a trek.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

In simplicity _ (and after a few red wines !)

Welsh connectivity to England seems to be - (a) North Wales to Liverpool / Manchester and London. (b) Mid / Central Wales to the West Midlands and London (c) South Wales to Bristol and of course London

There are obviously other flows around - but the "Cambrian to the West Midlands seems strong - and certainly was in my day in Aberystwyth at the low point of 1976 - 1979 , when you had to change at Salop and Wolverhampton most of the time. We would have been deemed spoiled with the present direct links to New St and International.

Having said that - Cambrian - Salop - Crewe , in engineering days , is pretty neat .

 

[Calthrop]

The strong West Midlands - Cambrian Ciast market is a railway creation - but long predates the 1960s. While I’m sure a more direct route from Manchester (and through trains) would have encouraged some traffic, the industrial towns and cities of the North West had / have plenty of other bits of seaside that are much easier to get to. Wherever you go from the West Midlands the seaside is quite a trek.

My italics above -- I gather that one of West Midlanders' least-far-to-go options for that purpose; and long, and even today, a favourite with them; is Weston-Super-Mare. Quite comfortably reachable by rail from W. Midlands, then and now; but (no offence meant to Westonians, and I've found the place has a quirky charm) really not all that "seasidy", as seaside resorts go -- way up the Bristol Channel. One can see the attraction of venues on other coasts.

Asking pardon for topic-drifting; but, re seaside breaks for those far inland -- a recent intriguing discovery of mine, in a book by one of my favourite authors; who writes principally about natural history, but with "asides" on many topics. This guy was born and has spent most of his life, in rural Herefordshire -- in the book of his, concerned, is a passage about Herefordshire folks' prime favourite for a quick trip to the seaside, being Borth, north of Aberystwyth (seemingly they prefer it to "Aber..." itself). Those places are, geographically, the nearest bits of seaside to Herefordshire. This is very much in a private-car context -- even at "rail peak", a brief return trip by rail from Herefordshire to Borth would not have been feasible in any sane way. Wondering prompted, as to what Herefordians could have done for a quick seaside excursion a century and more ago, with rail the only option. Looked to me, rather like South Wales's "opposite numbers" to Weston-Super-Mare -- probably mutually visible across the Channel -- in Wales, Penarth or Barry, I suppose -- like Weston, "sorta-kinda" seaside, but rather unexcitingly so.

 

[Andy873]

Do you think the decision-makers at the time chose the wrong line to close, between England and Welshpool?

Ideally both would have remained open, however, the line they chose to close was the Whitchurch-Ellesmere-Oswestry-Welshpool route; the line they kept was the sparse Shrewsbury-Welshpool line. A lot of railway connectivity within northern Shropshire was lost with this decision - Ellesmere and Oswestry are both sizeable towns and would have benefited in retaining rail links to Whitchurch, Crewe, Liverpool and Manchester.

Politics also played a part. In the documentary Ian Hislop goes off the rails there is a story by one of the former labour ministers about a meeting where a line in Wales (sorry I can't remember which one) was recommended for closure. The PM agreed to the closure until one minister pointed out that the line ran through seven marginal constituencies.

the industrial towns and cities of the North West had / have plenty of other bits of seaside that are much easier to get to.

Very true, however they travelled far and wide. Beautiful Wales, especially North Wales was (and still is) an extremely popular destination for both holidays and days out.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There's another line closure that was key, LNWR's Wellington-Stafford line, which gave access from the Cambrian to London avoiding Birmingham.
The LNWR ran a regular Stafford-Welshpool service to connect with the Cambrian.
People forget the joint line history of the railways around Shrewsbury, which included Welshpool-Shrewsbury-Wellington.

I can understand why the main current flow is to Birmingham, despite Euston being potentially as quick via Crewe and also serving the north-west.
Come HS2, Cambrian-London will certainly be quicker via Crewe, with the disconnection across Birmingham.

 

[Rescars]

The Oswestry route was the Cambrian main line, but after the 1923 grouping the GWR developed the Shrewsbury route in preference, with through services to Birmingham and the 'Cambrian Coast Express' to Paddington. Manchester to Aberystwyth via Oswestry and v.v. only had one service per day. It was a fairly easy to decision which line to close in 1965 - Manchester to Aberystwyth passengers could be routed via Shrewsbury - it was only 4.5 miles further and Oswestry passengers would have to be content with Gobowen.

Slightly branching from the OT, but is Oswestry the only former location of a main line railway company's headquarters that is no longer served by the national network?

 

[Gloster]

Politics also played a part. In the documentary Ian Hislop goes off the rails there is a story by one of the former labour ministers about a meeting where a line in Wales (sorry I can't remember which one) was recommended for closure. The PM agreed to the closure until one minister pointed out that the line ran through seven marginal constituencies.

Possibly the Central Wales Line, now rebranded as the Heart of Wales Line. This is the only line that was proposed for closure before the Beeching Report that is still open, reportedly because of this point about marginal constituencies.

Slightly branching from the OT, but is Oswestry the only former location of a main line railway company's headquarters that is no longer served by the national network?

The site of Hull & Barnsley’s Springhead Works is close, but not on the system, as is the Lancashire & Yorkshire’s Horwich. The Midland & South Western Junction‘s Cirencester Works and the Midland & Great Northern’s Melton Constable are well off it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Cheshire Lines Committee's HQ was at the now demolished Liverpool Central (High Level).
Gone but not forgotten, and there are still railways in the cellar and basement.

 

[Dave W]

My italics above -- I gather that one of West Midlanders' least-far-to-go options for that purpose; and long, and even today, a favourite with them; is Weston-Super-Mare. Quite comfortably reachable by rail from W. Midlands, then and now; but (no offence meant to Westonians, and I've found the place has a quirky charm) really not all that "seasidy", as seaside resorts go -- way up the Bristol Channel. One can see the attraction of venues on other coasts.

Asking pardon for topic-drifting; but, re seaside breaks for those far inland -- a recent intriguing discovery of mine, in a book by one of my favourite authors; who writes principally about natural history, but with "asides" on many topics. This guy was born and has spent most of his life, in rural Herefordshire -- in the book of his, concerned, is a passage about Herefordshire folks' prime favourite for a quick trip to the seaside, being Borth, north of Aberystwyth (seemingly they prefer it to "Aber..." itself). Those places are, geographically, the nearest bits of seaside to Herefordshire. This is very much in a private-car context -- even at "rail peak", a brief return trip by rail from Herefordshire to Borth would not have been feasible in any sane way. Wondering prompted, as to what Herefordians could have done for a quick seaside excursion a century and more ago, with rail the only option. Looked to me, rather like South Wales's "opposite numbers" to Weston-Super-Mare -- probably mutually visible across the Channel -- in Wales, Penarth or Barry, I suppose -- like Weston, "sorta-kinda" seaside, but rather unexcitingly so.

If I was from Herefordshire I'd be going to Tenby, personally! But as I'm from the deepest Black Country, I was from a family of a school which VERY closely is reflected in your first paragraph. A static caravan in Brean Sands was my home for at least one week of Easter and the Summer, and often Whitsun too, for most of my early childhood. Weston was less visited than Burnham (a town I recently revisited for nostalgia's sake and found it to be pretty much as it was when I left it over 20 years ago).

I went to Tenby, Barmouth and Aberystwyth when I was older on day trips, and even went for a day out in Rhyl, but I was much less exposed to the Welsh coast. On the occasions we did go, the train was never even in the frame on account of the travel time. But a fair few families on my estate did prefer the Wales resorts as their holidaying location.

 

[Taunton]

Possibly the Central Wales Line, now rebranded as the Heart of Wales Line. This is the only line that was proposed for closure before the Beeching Report that is still open, reportedly because of this point about marginal constituencies.

I think this was described in the autobiography of Beeching's Chief Economist, Stewart Joy.

I never quite got why hardly anybody was actually using the trains, but it was feared that significant numbers would change their vote for an overall national government just because the unused service was withdrawn.

 

[Calthrop]

If I was from Herefordshire I'd be going to Tenby, personally! But as I'm from the deepest Black Country, I was from a family of a school which VERY closely is reflected in your first paragraph. A static caravan in Brean Sands was my home for at least one week of Easter and the Summer, and often Whitsun too, for most of my early childhood. Weston was less visited than Burnham (a town I recently revisited for nostalgia's sake and found it to be pretty much as it was when I left it over 20 years ago).

I went to Tenby, Barmouth and Aberystwyth when I was older on day trips, and even went for a day out in Rhyl, but I was much less exposed to the Welsh coast. On the occasions we did go, the train was never even in the frame on account of the travel time. But a fair few families on my estate did prefer the Wales resorts as their holidaying location.

Looking at it -- re pure "distance as crow flies", there's not a lot to pick for Black Country / Birmingham, between Weston / Burnham / etc.; North Sea (Skegness closest); "eastern North Wales", or Wirral, coast; and Cardigan Bay. In rail-travel terms, rail access options will of course weigh heavily in the balance thereof.

I think this was described in the autobiography of Beeching's Chief Economist, Stewart Joy.

I never quite got why hardly anybody was actually using the trains, but it was feared that significant numbers would change their vote for an overall national government just because the unused service was withdrawn.

The old thing -- "you expect people to make sense?". The ultimate example for me, has to be early 1935, in the Southern Railway's approach to closing the Lynton & Barnstaple. A meeting was held at the SR's Barnstaple office, with objections to closure invited: the "objecting" delegation to the meeting, from Lynton, travelled thereto by car -- explaining that it was "more convenient"...

 

[6Gman]

Politics also played a part. In the documentary Ian Hislop goes off the rails there is a story by one of the former labour ministers about a meeting where a line in Wales (sorry I can't remember which one) was recommended for closure. The PM agreed to the closure until one minister pointed out that the line ran through seven marginal constituencies.

It makes a good story. It's said to be the Shrewsbury to Swansea line but - as someone with interests in railways and politics - I find it hard to reach a figure of anything like seven marginal constituencies.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

It makes a good story. It's said to be the Shrewsbury to Swansea line but - as someone with interests in railways and politics - I find it hard to reach a figure of anything like seven marginal constituencies.

Claimed in various sources as an intervention by one George Thomas - in the days before he became Speaker. Welsh politics being quite volatile in those days , with the advent of Plaid Cymru making thins interesting.

 

[robert thomas]

Looking at it -- re pure "distance as crow flies", there's not a lot to pick for Black Country / Birmingham, between Weston / Burnham / etc.; North Sea (Skegness closest); "eastern North Wales", or Wirral, coast; and Cardigan Bay. In rail-travel terms, rail access options will of course weigh heavily in the balance thereof.



The old thing -- "you expect people to make sense?". The ultimate example for me, has to be early 1935, in the Southern Railway's approach to closing the Lynton & Barnstaple. A meeting was held at the SR's Barnstaple office, with objections to closure invited: the "objecting" delegation to the meeting, from Lynton, travelled thereto by car -- explaining that it was "more convenient"...

During the early 1960's I had an aunt who lived at Llwyngwril on the Cambrian coat and I spent a number of holidays there. It was apparent that the vast majority of holidaymakers (and 2nd home owners) were from the Birmingham area.

 

[Taunton]

The Talyllyn preservation movement was certainly started in its early days by those from Birmingham; the very first meeting was held in a Birmingham hotel.

 

[S&CLER]

I've occasionally wondered why the Cambrian wasn't added to the LMS-GW Joint line at the time of the grouping, but I seem to recall reading that Eric Geddes and others were against extending joint lines and in fact hoped to assign more of them, especially the so-called "penetrating lines", to sole ownership than they actually managed to do.

 

[Taunton]

There were various suggestions for the 1923 Grouping, one of which was that all the Scottish companies should be merged together, jointly owned by the LMS and LNER.

What I suspect the civil servants came up with was something bureaucratically easy for them to put together, just merging established companies and saying "that's it" rather than any breaking up of ownership or physically moving things around.

 

[eldomtom2]

There were various suggestions for the 1923 Grouping, one of which was that all the Scottish companies should be merged together, jointly owned by the LMS and LNER.

I was under the impression that the Scottish company was to be independent, and thus the idea was fiercely resisted by the Scottish companies who were hoping for cross-subsidisation from the more profitable English companies.

 

[Rescars]

IIRC the GWR wasn't very happy about being grouped with the South Wales lines. How was the "acquisition" of the Cambrian viewed, I wonder?

 

[Taunton]

IIRC the GWR wasn't very happy about being grouped with the South Wales lines. How was the "acquisition" of the Cambrian viewed, I wonder?

I understand that the GWR fully understood that the South Wales lines would come to them, but that they were dissatisfied with how much they were charged for acquiring them - to the satisfaction of the Welsh shareholders (most of whom were coal companies), but not for the GW finances. Most were essentially bankrupt - three of them had almost gone under in 1908 but a government-engineered scheme kept them running, essentially with GW management and indeed loaned locomotives as well. I have read that only the Rhymney was in good financial shape, even the Taff Vale was poor, and the rest were financial basket cases.

Regarding the Cambrian, the GW had a fit at the overall state of the business, which the Abermule accident only months before the amalgamation had put into focus, and did a (surprising for business practices a century ago) full clearout of most of their senior management. I believe there was a particular issue of the valuation of the two wrecked Abermule locomotives which it was wished to transfer at their current depreciated book value, to the advantage of the Cambrian shareholders; loco 95 was only a few months old. Both locos' remains lay behind Oswestry works, with GW staff instructed not to lay a spanner on them, until all was finalised.

 

[Revaulx]

There were various suggestions for the 1923 Grouping, one of which was that all the Scottish companies should be merged together, jointly owned by the LMS and LNER.

What I suspect the civil servants came up with was something bureaucratically easy for them to put together, just merging established companies and saying "that's it" rather than any breaking up of ownership or physically moving things around.

That’s interesting. I believe the original plan was simply to unite the Scottish companies, but that got kyboshed by their parlous financial state. Doing what you say would have made more sense operationally, while still spreading the financial pain.

Things would have gone differently if the Government hadn’t nixed the GN/GE/GC merger of 1909. Looking at what happens in other industries, a major merger almost inevitably triggers a spate of them. The GSW were keen on a merger with the Midland, which may have driven the Caley into the bosom of the LNW.

 

[Rescars]

I understand that the GWR fully understood that the South Wales lines would come to them, but that they were dissatisfied with how much they were charged for acquiring them - to the satisfaction of the Welsh shareholders (most of whom were coal companies), but not for the GW finances. Most were essentially bankrupt - three of them had almost gone under in 1908 but a government-engineered scheme kept them running, essentially with GW management and indeed loaned locomotives as well. I have read that only the Rhymney was in good financial shape, even the Taff Vale was poor, and the rest were financial basket cases.

Regarding the Cambrian, the GW had a fit at the overall state of the business, which the Abermule accident only months before the amalgamation had put into focus, and did a (surprising for business practices a century ago) full clearout of most of their senior management. I believe there was a particular issue of the valuation of the two wrecked Abermule locomotives which it was wished to transfer at their current depreciated book value, to the advantage of the Cambrian shareholders; loco 95 was only a few months old. Both locos' remains lay behind Oswestry works, with GW staff instructed not to lay a spanner on them, until all was finalised.

Very interesting insights, especially Paddington's views of the competence of the team they inherited from Oswestry!

For an alternative view of the Cambrian, this book is available for free on Project Gutenberg "The Story of the Cambrian: A Biography of a Railway" by C. P. Gasquoine.