The West London line

[NorthKent1989]

I'm rather surprised that this line isn't utilised more, its potential to link destinations in North West London to South and South East London, should've been snapped up, I know there is an hourly South Croydon to Milton Keynes service and years ago there even used to be trains from Brighton to Rugby, could these services be restored?

Perhaps even adding South East London destinations to the list such as Orpington or Dartford, to create a sort of "Thameslink 2" or "Crossrail 4"

Though with the Overground line now using this part of the network more would there be any room for such a service, seeing as the current West London line is
1tph?

 

[NSE]

The Rugby - Gatwick Airport became Watford - Brighton which then became MK - Croydon. Yeah I agree but freight also uses it, which takes
Up some space. But I think the real issues could be pathing and capacity at the junctions at either end. Clapham's Junctions are very busy as are the lines round Willesden. So I don't know if that has bearing on it.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I think providing a more viable link between Clapham J. and Watford to allow interchange between routes would be preferable to some random through services that were sparsely used outside the peaks.

 

[swt_passenger]

The 'Southern' WLL service was curtailed to the Croydon area when it became a slow line service in South London. A useful Brighton service would have to cross slow to fast just south of Clapham Junction, and this was a big pathing constraint hence its removal.

There was a proposal a few years back (2011 London and SE RUS from memory) to run the Southern service half hourly when rolling stock became available at least as far as Watford Junction, but that seems to have gone quiet.

There's also the 4 tph London Overground stopping service each way, SN peak extras to/from Shepherds Bush, and various freight workings. I think it is generally accepted to be operating around its effective capacity. I also suggest that if capacity was found LO would try and use it - e.g. as part of their hopes for improved services to the proposed Old Oak Common major interchange with GW and HS2

 

[CheeseOnToast]

The line is used by a lot of freight, Channel Tunnel traffic especially, but not all of it runs on the day of course. The problem is trying to marry paths north of the River to paths south of the River and there aren't many bolt holes south to hold things awaiting a path. Paths on the WCML north of Wembley are limited when you factor in intermodals, other freight, there's hardly anything on the Fasts left to use and would what's available marry up with a path on the WLL?

The WLL is surprisingly busy if everything runs. It also doesn't feel a quick line, Wembley - Shepherd's Bush feels like a stagger given the line speeds and the AC/DC switch, I know a lot of people who commute Watford - south of Clapham Junction and they prefer going via Euston and the tube.

 

[Bookd]

It is a great improvement from 40 years ago when there were two trains a day each way between Clapham Junction and Olympia!

 

[steamybrian]

It is a great improvement from 40 years ago when there were two trains a day each way between Clapham Junction and Olympia!

I agree .... On Mondays to Fridays peak hours only until the mid 1980s there were only two trains in the morning and two in the evening. No passenger trains north of Olympia except the Motorail or excursions.
With the frequency of trains we have now along the line and new stations built since 1985 some people are still not satisfied.:roll:

 

[causton]

With the frequency of trains we have now along the line and new stations built since 1985 some people are still not satisfied.:roll:

That's it, give up now, we should never try for better!
:roll:

Anyone who uses that line will know that it needs more services - and more importantly - more reliable ones that aren't cancelled whenever the wind blows on the West Coast Main Line

 

[NSE]

I think like most London Overground it's becoming/become a victim of its roaring success. I did a bit of reading on it and I think it used to only have Olympia as the intermediate stop between Clapham and Willesden? To quickly reopen West Brompton and then in the last ten years, build Shepherds Bush and Imperial Wharf. It's done very well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do wonder if it'd be feasible to extend (obviously with different rolling stock) the Shepherds Bush terminator to Watford Jn bay. That'd up capacity for local journeys.

It'd be nice to have a proper hourly IC that way, something like Brum-Intl-Cov-Rugby-MKC-WFJ-CLJ-East Croydon-Gatwick(-Brighton) but I recognise it may not be feasible to path it.

 

[30907]

The most useful development IMO would be to run half hourly CLJ-WFJ (or MKC).

 

[CheeseOnToast]

Which paths do we remove to put these new services in?

 

[DarloRich]

I'm rather surprised that this line isn't utilised more, its potential to link destinations in North West London to South and South East London, should've been snapped up, I know there is an hourly South Croydon to Milton Keynes service and years ago there even used to be trains from Brighton to Rugby, could these services be restored?

Perhaps even adding South East London destinations to the list such as Orpington or Dartford, to create a sort of "Thameslink 2" or "Crossrail 4"

Though with the Overground line now using this part of the network more would there be any room for such a service, seeing as the current West London line is
1tph?

is there space available to deliver those services? The existing MKC - Croydon services offer a useful connection into the Southern network. They are the first to be cut if WCML south goes udders up mind.

 

[swt_passenger]

The West London Line executive summary from the Sussex route study of 2015:

West London Line
The study notes the recent successful completion of 8-car platform
extensions on the West London Line (WLL), the commencement of
8-car operation by Southern and the recent start of 5-car operation
by London Overground Rail Operations Limited
CP6: 2019 -2024
• The study outlines that by the end of CP6 moving to a 10tph
peak service frequency on the WLL is likely to be required if
demand is to be met
• A number of interventions that would support resilience of
operation when a 10tph peak timetable is in operation are set
out including – reopening of Platform 0 and associated works
at Clapham Junction
Beyond CP6: 2024-2043 –
• It is recognised that to meet background growth and the
impact of connection of the WLL to Old Oak Common in CP7, a
move to make further use of the 8-car capability delivered in
2014 will be definitely be required. This would ultimately
involve London Overground services operating at 8- rather than 5-car and
has implications for through running of services onto the North
London Line (which is not yet 8-car capable).
• This requirement also has implications for the development of
Platforms 0 & 1/2 at Clapham Junction, at least one and
almost certainly two 8-car capable platforms will be required
here. The CP6 scheme assessing the cost of re-opening
Platform 0 will also provide costs for delivering Platform 0 as an
8 car Platform.
• Consideration is given to through operation of trains to the
WLL from further south than Croydon, but the need for new
grade separated access between the fast and slow/WLL lines in
the Clapham area to achieve this means such an option would
be very expensive and disruptive to deliver for peak services.

From: https://16cbgt3sbwr8204sf92da3xxc5m...-East-Route-Sussex-Area-Route-Study-FINAL.pdf

 

[NSE]

Assuming they don't take the hit/some how solve the problem of joining the fasts south of Clapham, logically they could easily morph into any southbound service south of Croydon from platforms 5/6. So join up to East Grinstead/Redhill/Caterham/Tattenham Corner etc.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The WLL really took off in Summer 1996 when the 2 car 117 DMU's were replaced by class 313's - and the service became much more reliable with a 50% capacity increase right away.

313009 for the record , was the first one. - in passenger service. I was there as Ops Manager.

 

[Starmill]

There is one through service - 0730 Coulsdon Town to Watford Junction hahaha

 

[NSE]

How well is that used by Coulsdon - Purley Oaks to beyond Clapham? I mean I assume it'll always be well used by people making local journeys at that time. But I'd be interested to know how many of the South of Croydon pax stay on till Shepherds Bush or beyond.

 

[MontyP]

How well is that used by Coulsdon - Purley Oaks to beyond Clapham? I mean I assume it'll always be well used by people making local journeys at that time. But I'd be interested to know how many of the South of Croydon pax stay on till Shepherds Bush or beyond.

Would it be possible to turn services round at Clapham Junction rather than carrying on to South Croydon? There are plenty of services between Clapham J and all points southwards on Southern.

The service is unbelievably slow between Shepherds Bush and the WCML - is there anything that can be done to speed this up, or is it because of the switch from third rail to OHLE?

 

[a_c_skinner]

As an occasional user it seems the WCML to Shepherds Bush is simply slow linespeed. There is a pause for traction current change, but it doesn't explain the rest.

It does save me crossing central London, but it isn't quick! By the time I've got on a slower train that stops at MK it adds a deal of time.

 

[Far north 37]

Would it be possible to turn services round at Clapham Junction rather than carrying on to South Croydon? There are plenty of services between Clapham J and all points southwards on Southern.

The service is unbelievably slow between Shepherds Bush and the WCML - is there anything that can be done to speed this up, or is it because of the switch from third rail to OHLE?

Does it not cross from the slow lines over the fast lines to the west london line after wembley as well i would imagine that takes a bit of time.

 

[30907]

Does it not cross from the slow lines over the fast lines to the west london line after wembley as well i would imagine that takes a bit of time.

No, there's a dive-under, still slow though.

 

[Far north 37]

No, there's a dive-under, still slow though.

Ah ok wasn't sure the route it took couldn't remember, it is a very slow run from wembley practically crawls along.

 

[a_c_skinner]

It never actually stops, except at the traction change and I've never seen the man with the red flag walking in front. I imagine he out paces it and disappears into the distance.

 

[MatthewRead]

The WLL really took off in Summer 1996 when the 2 car 117 DMU's were replaced by class 313's - and the service became much more reliable with a 50% capacity increase right away.

313009 for the record , was the first one. - in passenger service. I was there as Ops Manager.

What date in 1996 was that may I ask?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Here's a somewhat bizarre but ambitious rail proposal from the West London Line users group page from 2008 (long before construction on Thameslink and Crossrail ever got started) it proposes a cross South London service from Ebbsfleet to Heathrow Airport via Dartford, Woolwich Arsenal, Blackheath, Lewisham, Peckham Rye, Denmark Hill, Clapham, Clapham Junction, Kensington Olympia, Shepherds Bush and Ealing Broadway, with proposed additional stops at Abbey Wood, Charlton, West Brompton, and Southall.
It's very crayonista-ry and in a parallel universe this may work

http://www.westlondonlinegroup.org.uk/docs/070322-RIIA07.pdf

 

[CapitalStar378]

TfL are planning to use Cl. 710s ordered for the GOBLIN extension to beef up WLL services until the Riverside extension opens in 2021. I haven't seen any detail of the extra trains but there are plans to replace the 710s once they've gone to keep the extra services.

 

[MontyP]

Here's a somewhat bizarre but ambitious rail proposal from the West London Line users group page from 2008 (long before construction on Thameslink and Crossrail ever got started) it proposes a cross South London service from Ebbsfleet to Heathrow Airport via Dartford, Woolwich Arsenal, Blackheath, Lewisham, Peckham Rye, Denmark Hill, Clapham, Clapham Junction, Kensington Olympia, Shepherds Bush and Ealing Broadway, with proposed additional stops at Abbey Wood, Charlton, West Brompton, and Southall.
It's very crayonista-ry and in a parallel universe this may work

http://www.westlondonlinegroup.org.uk/docs/070322-RIIA07.pdf

All very nice on paper, but the conflicts and pathing to make something like this work would be crazy. Surely far better to use the existing resources to run a high frequency (every 15 mins?) service from Clapham Junction to Watford Junction? This should still give space for freight paths (they are timed the same as passenger trains from Latchmere Junc to Wembley Yard South Junc if I am reading it right from Real Time Trains). Although not sure that there are the right turnaround facilities at CJ.

 

[a_c_skinner]

I've probably not understood, but isn't one thing that is needed is platforms at Willesden Junction for the WWL?

(Incidentally could I do Watford Jn to East Croyden by Watford to Willesden then Willesden to Croyden? Would it be a permitted route on a cross London ticket when the Southern WLL services disappoint? I'll try to get an itinerary out of National Rail, but that will take me ages!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I assume you mean on a ticket routed Kenny O? If so, yes you can use the LO services over the same route instead.

If you mean go the other way round LO *not* via Kenny O, get a Travelcard instead, it's not much more expensive.