Then & Now

[Ash Bridge]

With the weather now getting rather more summery my wife and I decided to take a stroll into Reddish Vale and what I had in mind was to find the location of a shot taken of the Harwich Boat Train way back during the spring of 1973 and attempt to replicate that picture today as a comparison. I didn't have my Canon SLR with me only an iPhone 6s so you must excuse the image quality.

Image No.1: Shows an unidentified EE Class 37 on the 07:33 Harwich Parkeston Quay - Manchester Piccadilly about to pass under the Stockport - Guide Bridge Line and approximately 15 minutes from its scheduled 14:00 arrival time, note the Gresley buffet car in the formation.

Image No.2: Class 142 having departed Reddish North is working the 12:49 Manchester Piccadilly - Sheffield stopping service, studying the shot carefully the fogsignalmans cabin which the class 37 is about to pass still stands today and is visible just below the 142s rear set of passenger doors, this is virtually the identical location as the slide taken 44 years previously, it's interesting to think that in another 4/5 years time today's picture will also most likely be history with the impending withdrawal of the Pacer fleet.

 

[Cowley]

Nice bit of fencing in the new one
I'd definitely rather be on the train in the original photo, also as with a lot of then and now photos you can see a lot of modern greenery around the railway.
I've always liked then and now photos, I'll see if I can get one together at some point.
Good stuff Mr Bridge.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Nice bit of fencing in the new one
I'd definitely rather be on the train in the original photo, also as with a lot of then and now photos you can see a lot of modern greenery around the railway.
I've always liked then and now photos, I'll see if I can get one together at some point.
Good stuff Mr Bridge.

Thanks Mr Cowley,
Yes, the gate in the original shot doesn't exist any longer, I absolutely agree with you about being behind that 37, especially stood at the bar counter of that Gresley buffet ordering a BR sausage roll and a beer at 1973 prices

 

[RichmondCommu]

Nice pictures and a really good idea for a thread.

Of course three years before that the train would have run via the Woodhead route.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Nice pictures and a really good idea for a thread.

Of course three years before that the train would have run via the Woodhead route.

Thanks for that, when it went by way of Woodhead would there have been a traction change at Sheffield Victoria from diesel to a 76 or even 77 when they were still in traffic?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Thanks for that, when it went by way of Woodhead would there have been a traction change at Sheffield Victoria from diesel to a 76 or even 77 when they were still in traffic?

The traction change either took place there or perhaps further to the east at Darnall. Either way I'm pretty certain that the class 77s were in charge of all passenger workings over the Woodhead route until they were withdrawn in 1968 and later sold to the Dutch. For the last two years class 76s would have been in charge of everything.

 

[Ash Bridge]

The traction change either took place there or perhaps further to the east at Darnall. Either way I'm pretty certain that the class 77s were in charge of all passenger workings over the Woodhead route until they were withdrawn in 1968 and later sold to the Dutch. For the last two years class 76s would have been in charge of everything.

Interesting, I knew that in earlier years the train originally served Manchester Central rather than Piccadilly and continued to Liverpool, but the only shots I've ever seen show it traversing the Fallowfield Loop Line with steam haulage, many thanks for that.

 

[billh]

Interesting, I knew that in earlier years the train originally served Manchester Central rather than Piccadilly and continued to Liverpool, but the only shots I've ever seen show it traversing the Fallowfield Loop Line with steam haulage, many thanks for that.

Some fancy engine changing at Guide Bridge: a 2-6-4 tank or sometimes a B1 would move to Cock Lane 'box on the Stockport Line, the electric would come in from Sheffield, uncouple at Platform 4 and run forward over the crossover to the slow lines and wait. Steam backs onto the train and sets off for Central, branching off at Fairfield. Meanwhile the electric runs back through the station and into the engine bay( no trace now) at the East end of P2/3 to await the next eastbound train.While all this was going on, nothing much else could move round the station.
Pleased to see that some of the EM2s Greek goddess names are re-incarnated with the new class88s.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Some fancy engine changing at Guide Bridge: a 2-6-4 tank or sometimes a B1 would move to Cock Lane 'box on the Stockport Line, the electric would come in from Sheffield, uncouple at Platform 4 and run forward over the crossover to the slow lines and wait. Steam backs onto the train and sets off for Central, branching off at Fairfield. Meanwhile the electric runs back through the station and into the engine bay( no trace now) at the East end of P2/3 to await the next eastbound train.While all this was going on, nothing much else could move round the station.
Pleased to see that some of the EM2s Greek goddess names are re-incarnated with the new class88s.

Many thanks for that Bill, yes it's nice to see those former 77 names coming back on the side of a loco, I wonder how long before an 88 traverses the former Woodhead 1500v DC metals between Guide Bridge and Piccadilly?

 

[70014IronDuke]

The traction change either took place there or perhaps further to the east at Darnall. Either way I'm pretty certain that the class 77s were in charge of all passenger workings over the Woodhead route until they were withdrawn in 1968 and later sold to the Dutch. For the last two years class 76s would have been in charge of everything.

I used the line a few times in 1968 and just before the end in 1970. I don't think I ever caught the boat train over that section, but ISTR it changed locos at Sheff Victoria.
Actually, thinking more about it, I wonder if the Cl 37 did not run through with the train, ie they didn't bother with electric haulage, at least towards the end?

I did see Cl 77s, but by the time I rode the line it was only Cl 76s on the Man Picc - Sheff Vic shuttles. Nice, wonky old Mk 1s rattling away up the valley past Sheff Wednesday's ground. Even in 68 it seemed an anachronism!

 

[billh]

Actually, thinking more about it, I wonder if the Cl 37 did not run through with the train, ie they didn't bother with electric haulage, at least towards the end?

I'm pretty sure that 37s ran through from Harwich as soon as they were available,was that 1962? I remember seeing early numbered ones , e.g. D6701, at Guide Bridge, all shiny and different. This evidence is at odds with the rule(?) that diesels and steam were banned from Woodhead Tunnel, at least in the early 60s.The first type 3 diesels were sent to East Anglia, so that ties in with the boat train haulage at that time. It must have saved loads of time avoiding loco changes on such a long route.Just an afterthought- did the Harwich avoid Woodhead altogether. by going Hope Valley , Marple ,Guide Bridge?

 

[70014IronDuke]

I'm pretty sure that 37s ran through from Harwich as soon as they were available,was that 1962? I remember seeing early numbered ones , e.g. D6701, at Guide Bridge, all shiny and different. This evidence is at odds with the rule(?) that diesels and steam were banned from Woodhead Tunnel, at least in the early 60s.The first type 3 diesels were sent to East Anglia, so that ties in with the boat train haulage at that time. It must have saved loads of time avoiding loco changes on such a long route.Just an afterthought- did the Harwich avoid Woodhead altogether. by going Hope Valley , Marple ,Guide Bridge?

No, it defintely went via Woodhead when it was open. With the Gresley buffets too. As I wrote my previous post, a vision of a Cl 37 on the train at Penistone came to mind ... which made me re-think it.

 

[billh]

Many thanks for that Bill, yes it's nice to see those former 77 names coming back on the side of a loco, I wonder how long before an 88 traverses the former Woodhead 1500v DC metals between Guide Bridge and Piccadilly?

Slightly more likely would be the former OA & GB junction section between what was Crowthorn and Ashton Moss North , that was 1500DC and still has some gantries in place despite being de-wired 45 years ago

 

[RichmondCommu]

Long after passenger services had been withdrawn from the route they would occasionally make a comeback when the Hope Valley route was closed for engineering work.

Following a tip off from a fellow spotter I persuaded my dad to drive a friend and I up to Woodhead from Duffield where we lived. All the way up I kept thinking that my dad would go bonkers if the information was false but it wasn't. We saw several trains including the Swindon built cross country DMU's. Woodhead signal box must have been switched out because all the photos were taken from the signal box steps.

 

[Cowley]

Time to resurrect Mr Bridge's thread .
OK I know I've used this photo on the forum before, but I took a new photo as a comparison today while I was meeting my cousin from Winsford.
These photos were taken thirty years apart and I was there when my stepbrother took the first one in 1987.
What struck me the most was the fact that everything based at EX was obviously out earning money today and being that both days were sunny summer Saturdays, having traction just sitting around idle is something that you just don't see so much nowadays.
In the background the trees have grown up quite substantially and Farm Hill estate has filled much of the hills in the background.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Quite a difference there Mr C,classic traction apart that lovely backdrop now nearly obliterated by the trees not to mention those ugly modern portakabin type buildings, it also looks as though considerable housing development has taken place on the hillside during the intervening years? I'll take the earlier view any time, the slide below was taken from a similar position 12 years before your earlier shot in September 1975.

 

[Cowley]

Your photo's a real gem. For one thing there is absolutely nothing on the hills behind and that's entirely covered in the Farm Hill housing estate now.
The semaphores in the yard are such a part of history now too and I'm assuming that the station still had its avoiding lines then?
I wonder too if the flood relief was fully finished by then? As I can see a building in the background that seems to me to be built on the alignment of the relief channel for the Exe?
Also (and this appeals to the geek in me), 33052 doesn't have the name 'Ashford' yet - it being one of the five original named members. .
Would it have been laying over for an Exeter - Waterloo service in the yard, or a Barnstaple one?

 

[Ash Bridge]

Your photo's a real gem. For one thing there is absolutely nothing on the hills behind and that's entirely covered in the Farm Hill housing estate now.
The semaphores in the yard are such a part of history now too and I'm assuming that the station still had its avoiding lines then?
I wonder too if the flood relief was fully finished by then? As I can see a building in the background that seems to me to be built on the alignment of the relief channel for the Exe?
Also (and this appeals to the geek in me), 33052 doesn't have the name 'Ashford' yet - it being one of the five original named members. .
Would it have been laying over for an Exeter - Waterloo service in the yard, or a Barnstaple one?

Ah yes, it's good to know that 33052 is still with us, renumbered from 6570 the previous year (1974) I was thinking that 62 headcode was used on the Waterloo services? the building in the background like you say does seem to sit in the course of the present day Exe relief channel yet it appears to be a modern recently built structure of which it's construction in that location seems rather short sighted if the relief scheme was already planned/underway at that time don't you think?

 

[Cowley]

Yes of course 62 is a Waterloo service. I didn't engage brain properly then.
I had this photo stored on my phone but I'm not sure where it came from, it may be from the Exeter Memories website.
It shows some of the detail around the shed quite well and also behind it. There's a different warehouse in the older view (at least I think it's different anyway).
The signal in your photo is visible in the foreground.

 

[Ash Bridge]

That's a lovely picture, I'm wondering if the old steam shed was still extant when I took that shot in 1975, shame it's hidden behind the 33, I agree about that warehouse as the roof apex goes in a different direction to the later image.

 

[Cowley]

I think the original steam shed lost its roof (in a fire?) in about 1963 but some of the walls were retained and adapted for the diesel depot. I'm not sure if anything is left of the original shed now but I've found this photo taken by Mike Glasspool in 1989 that shows what was left then. I remember asking the blokes in the dingy room by the 47 if we could have a look around one day in about 1987 because 45145 was on shed and we wanted to see it. They pretty much said we could do what we wanted as long as we didn't fiddle with anything or fall down a pit .
We actually cabbed loads of the locos and even went underneath them in the inspection pits! Can you imagine doing that today?
That photo was taken from exactly the same spot as mine yesterday.

 

[Ash Bridge]

There appears to possibly be a remaining section of the old shed wall to the left of the BG vehicle partly supporting the newer structure, also to the left of the class 50 that warehouse still seems to be standing too.

 

[Bevan Price]

The traction change either took place there or perhaps further to the east at Darnall. Either way I'm pretty certain that the class 77s were in charge of all passenger workings over the Woodhead route until they were withdrawn in 1968 and later sold to the Dutch. For the last two years class 76s would have been in charge of everything.

Even when the 77s were present, a few passenger services were operated by 76s, especially when there were summer saturday extras. Passenger service loco changes were always at Sheffield Victoria. The first time I saw the Harwich - Liverpool service, a March-based B17 worked it into Sheffield Victoria. As others comment, Class 37 worked through to Manchester in the final few years of the Woodhead route passenger services.

In the Sheffield area, freight services changed between steam / diesel & electric traction either at Rotherwood Sidings, located between Darnall & Woodhouse stations, or in Tinsley Yard.

(Additionally, much freight ran to Wath Yard, leaving/joining the Woodhead route at Penistone.)

 

[billh]

Even when the 77s were present, a few passenger services were operated by 76s, especially when there were summer saturday extras.

The named EM1s, (76s) originally all had steam heat boilers fitted, so could work passenger trains all year round. The boilers were electric, like a hot water cylinder with heating elements and worked at 50psi. They were fully automatic, just needing to be switched on or off as required and thus did not ,in theory,need a secondman to operate, unlike the oil fired boilers on most other traction. An early form of ETH?

 

[Ash Bridge]

Time for another one, this time we look at Stockport Station The then view in 1973 depicts class 82 E3053 passing on a southbound ECS working, whilst class 85 E3059 lays over between duties in the 'Slums', The now shot actually taken yesterday (30/5/17) features Pendolino 390042 working the 10:15 Manchester Piccadilly - London Euston service.

 

[Cowley]

Great pair of photos.
Not a great deal of change in some ways. The station buildings are all still there and gantry for the OHLE is the same. In the first photo the buildings still have a good covering of 'steam era' grime whereas in the second they're all clean and looking rather smart, the front of the canopy has been refaced or replaced?
Obviously the centre roads have gone now. Why were they called the Slums though?

The 82 and it's mk1s look so familiar to me having grown up with stuff like that, but actually it looks really old fashioned compared to the 390 which if it had rolled into the other centre road and parked next to the others would have seemed like an alien invasion .

It's really nice to see photos from this period because it's probably one of the more underrepresented times of the post steam era.

 

[Rover]

Superb photo of the 82 and 85 - loved it!

 

[Ash Bridge]

Great pair of photos.
Not a great deal of change in some ways. The station buildings are all still there and gantry for the OHLE is the same. In the first photo the buildings still have a good covering of 'steam era' grime whereas in the second they're all clean and looking rather smart, the front of the canopy has been refaced or replaced?
Obviously the centre roads have gone now. Why were they called the Slums though?

The 82 and it's mk1s look so familiar to me having grown up with stuff like that, but actually it looks really old fashioned compared to the 390 which if it had rolled into the other centre road and parked next to the others would have seemed like an alien invasion .

It's really nice to see photos from this period because it's probably one of the more underrepresented times of the post steam era.

If memory serves correct I think the old wooden canopies were replaced during the late 90s Railtrack era, also seem to recall that shortly after being fitted there was some problems with the new ones perhaps something to do with clearance issues? although not quite sure. Interesting that there is something in common between 390s & 82/85s, that being the Alsthom and Alstom manufacturing and power equipment connection but other than that maybe not a lot.

Superb photo of the 82 and 85 - loved it!

What would we give for a trip down the WCML in that combination today?

 

[Nonsense]

Yes of course 62 is a Waterloo service. I didn't engage brain properly then.
I had this photo stored on my phone but I'm not sure where it came from, it may be from the Exeter Memories website.
It shows some of the detail around the shed quite well and also behind it. There's a different warehouse in the older view (at least I think it's different anyway).
The signal in your photo is visible in the foreground.

Might be wrong but I'm sure I saw that photo in an article in Railway Modeller, some time around 1990. I think the article was called Prototype For Every thing, and was about the engine shed being recreated in oo.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Time for another one, this time we look at Stockport Station The then view in 1973 depicts class 82 E3053 passing on a southbound ECS working, whilst class 85 E3059 lays over between duties in the 'Slums', The now shot actually taken yesterday (30/5/17) features Pendolino 390042 working the 10:15 Manchester Piccadilly - London Euston service.

It would be really interesting (but probably impossible) to find out where the ECS was being carted off to.

Not only that but why was the class 85 parked up at Stockport when Longsight was only just up the road? Questions, questions!