Theoretical Question: Regarding Station Ticket Inspections

Yorky

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This is a theoretical question. What would happen if someone went to a station cafe or bar, where there are no ticket barriers, but the cafe is located beyond the ticket machines and ticket offices. The person enjoys a drink and then as they try to exit, there are RPOs doing a ticket inspection at the ticket office boundary line. They explain that they have not boarded a train but been to the cafe. What would happen?
 
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clagmonster

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Unless the station has a compulsory ticket area, which on NR is rare, there is no such concept as the 'ticket office boundary line'. The cafe customer has committed no offence, so in theory the RPO should accept the explanation and allow the punter on their way.
 

Yorky

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Unless the station has a compulsory ticket area, which on NR is rare, there is no such concept as the 'ticket office boundary line'. The cafe customer has committed no offence, so in theory the RPO should accept the explanation and allow the punter on their way.
Thanks for the insight, how does one know if one is in a compulsory ticket area?
 

Tallguy

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Unless the station has a compulsory ticket area, which on NR is rare, there is no such concept as the 'ticket office boundary line'. The cafe customer has committed no offence, so in theory the RPO should accept the explanation and allow the punter on their way.
My local station (Princes Risborough) has a cafe on the London bound platform. There are no ticket barriers at this station and one can go onto the platform, buy a drink or choccy bar and walk off again. At High Wycombe, the cafe on platform 3 is within the ticket barriers so can’t be accessed without going through the gate line. However, the cafe on platform 2 serves both the platform and the ticket booth area. If I went to the ticket barriers on platform 3 and asked to be let through so that I could get a drink at the cafe on that platform I doubt I would be let through.

For those of you not familiar with the layout of High Wycombe, it’s a bit odd for a small but very busy 3 platform station with 2 sets of public exits into different parts of the town.
 

clagmonster

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Thanks for the insight, how does one know if one is in a compulsory ticket area?
There is very clear mandatory signage which must be provided under the penalty fare regulations. Unless someone beats me to it, I will provide a link for you when I am next on my computer.

My local station (Princes Risborough) has a cafe on the London bound platform. There are no ticket barriers at this station and one can go onto the platform, buy a drink or choccy bar and walk off again. At High Wycombe, the cafe on platform 3 is within the ticket barriers so can’t be accessed without going through the gate line. However, the cafe on platform 2 serves both the platform and the ticket booth area. If I went to the ticket barriers on platform 3 and asked to be let through so that I could get a drink at the cafe on that platform I doubt I would be let through.

For those of you not familiar with the layout of High Wycombe, it’s a bit odd for a small but very busy 3 platform station with 2 sets of public exits into different parts of the town.
In your Wycombe case attempting to enter through barriers, I think it is a little different. Whilst I have little legal knowledge, the way I see it is that the railway have the right to deny you entry but not to deny you exit as in the original quoted example.

Thanks for the insight, how does one know if one is in a compulsory ticket area?
Below is the link for the requirements for the notice you should see went entering a compulsory ticket area:
 
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matt_world2004

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I got stopped at west Drayton having a pee once . This was despite telling the revenue inspector downstairs . I was having a pee when I went upto the platform and queuing for the toilet with the revenue inspector in front of me who stopped me subsequently after coming out of the toilet.

This wasted 20 minutes of my lunch break trying to sort it out. I answered their questions. But I had to show them what I was doing near the station which was intrusive.
.
I was angry and upset about it to be honest.
 

Yorky

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I got stopped at west Drayton having a pee once . This was despite telling the revenue inspector downstairs . I was having a pee when I went upto the platform and queuing for the toilet with the revenue inspector in front of me who stopped me subsequently after coming out of the toilet.

This wasted 20 minutes of my lunch break trying to sort it out. I answered their questions. But I had to show them what I was doing near the station which was intrusive.
.
I was angry and upset about it to be honest.
Was the revenue inspector in the queue for the toilets and turned around and asked for your ticket?
 

matt_world2004

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Was the revenue inspector in the queue for the toilets and turned around and asked for your ticket?
No he went toilet. I went toilet when I walked outside the toilet he was on the platform and asked for a ticket.

I explained that I was a bus controller working outside(showed staff pass) aa and that I asked the STM security guard that was wearing black with florescent banding if I could use the toilet.

He then called two other revenue inspectors over. And they both asked what station I started my journey at I said I didn't. That as I said . I was working outside the station. I had just come back from KFC and I was on my lunch break.

He told me there was no guy downstairs wearing black and silver HiVis.

I said do you want to see the notes I gave been collecting. He then said. Ok free to go.

Said this has been a waste of my lunch break and that I would be filing a grievance. That it is a legal right for access to toilet facilities in workplace and that the location was a stand for several bus routes. Where there was a formalised contractual arrangment for bus staff to use toilets at MTR operated stations and before hand for buses standing there.

I was angry
 

greyman42

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This is a theoretical question. What would happen if someone went to a station cafe or bar, where there are no ticket barriers, but the cafe is located beyond the ticket machines and ticket offices. The person enjoys a drink and then as they try to exit, there are RPOs doing a ticket inspection at the ticket office boundary line. They explain that they have not boarded a train but been to the cafe. What would happen?
A similar situation has occurred with me at York while using the travel centre. When i came out of the travel centre temporary ticket checks had been set up. I explained where i had been and was allowed on my way without any problems.
 

Yorky

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No he went toilet. I went toilet when I walked outside the toilet he was on the platform and asked for a ticket.

I explained that I was a bus controller working outside(showed staff pass) aa and that I asked the STM security guard that was wearing black with florescent banding if I could use the toilet.

He then called two other revenue inspectors over. And they both asked what station I started my journey at I said I didn't. That as I said . I was working outside the station. I had just come back from KFC and I was on my lunch break.

He told me there was no guy downstairs wearing black and silver HiVis.

I said do you want to see the notes I gave been collecting. He then said. Ok free to go.

Said this has been a waste of my lunch break and that I would be filing a grievance. That it is a legal right for access to toilet facilities in workplace and that the location was a stand for several bus routes. Where there was a formalised contractual arrangment for bus staff to use toilets at MTR operated stations and before hand for buses standing there.

I was angry
I had an image of him standing next to you at the urinal and turning and asking for your ticket.

It sounds very harsh the way you were treated. It does need clarity I think.
 

matt_world2004

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I had an image of him standing next to you at the urinal and turning and asking for your ticket.

It sounds very harsh the way you were treated. It does need clarity I think.

The toilet in West Drayton is a single cubicle for each gender.

Initially I was friendly and polite. Understanding they had a job to do. But when it dragged on I started getting a bit narked. I was probably more narked with my employer because I had recently lost paid lunch breaks and during the consultation we pointed out we regularly have problems accessing toilets.
 

Yorky

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The toilet in West Drayton is a single cubicle for each gender.

Initially I was friendly and polite. Understanding they had a job to do. But when it dragged on I started getting a bit narked. I was probably more narked with my employer because I had recently lost paid lunch breaks and during the consultation we pointed out we regularly have problems accessing toilets.
You have my sympathy. Did he initially acknowledge what you said when you told him you were just using the toilet? Or did he call his colleagues straight over?

A lot of trainspotters would be screwed if they encountered this man.
 

matt_world2004

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You have my sympathy. Did he initially acknowledge what you said when you told him you were just using the toilet? Or did he call his colleagues straight over?

A lot of trainspotters would be screwed if they encountered this man.
Called his colleagues straight over it was slightly intimidating to be honest . I had thoughts running through my head that they were going to withdraw the staff pass. And how I was going to send them a big bill.

This was before there was a compulsory ticket area at west Drayton and it was in the months between it being taken over by MTR and before the first TfL rail trains running there.
 

Nottingham59

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I think the wider rail transport industry has a real problem with Compulsory Ticket Areas. This is the sort of nonsense that you get in the Nottingham tram system, which rather undermines the whole concept:

This is a wider view of the same scene:
 

Tallguy

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I think the wider rail transport industry has a real problem with Compulsory Ticket Areas. This is the sort of nonsense that you get in the Nottingham tram system, which rather undermines the whole concept:

This is a wider view of the same scene:
That sign is stupidity itself. Is that part of the entire payment defined as the tram stop? All the way back to the building?
 

Nottingham59

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Is that part of the entire pavement defined as the tram stop?
Apparently so. The NET bylaws say that the Compulsory Ticket Area extends back 2 metres from the platform edge. Which in the case above means the whole pavement.

They also say that "No person at a tramstop compulsory ticket area shall be in breach of this Byelaw 20 unless he came there by alighting from a tram". But it doesn't say that on the notice. https://www.thetram.net/Userfiles/About/NET Byelaws 2014.pdf

The wording is so they can still impose penalty fares on someone who has been kicked off the tram. But the use of that particular term undermines the whole concept of Compulsory Ticket Areas as used by the railway. As you say, stupidity itself.
 

L401CJF

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On a similar subject to this, Rock Ferry Station (Merseyrail) has recently had an amazon parcel locker installed on the Liverpool bound platform. I've never seen one on a platform before. The station has no ticket gates but is fairly common to see revenue protection at the entrance/exit.

It's not a particularly nice area and one where fare evasion seems particularly high, presumably If you had to enter the station to collect a parcel from the locker the confirmation email would be suffice to gain access?
 

Tallguy

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On a similar subject to this, Rock Ferry Station (Merseyrail) has recently had an amazon parcel locker installed on the Liverpool bound platform. I've never seen one on a platform before. The station has no ticket gates but is fairly common to see revenue protection at the entrance/exit.

It's not a particularly nice area and one where fare evasion seems particularly high, presumably If you had to enter the station to collect a parcel from the locker the confirmation email would be suffice to gain access?
Or a platform ticket?
 

Turtle

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A similar situation has occurred with me at York while using the travel centre. When i came out of the travel centre temporary ticket checks had been set up. I explained where i had been and was allowed on my way without any problems.
I seem to recall that after automated gatelines were installed at Victoria a branch of Boots photos D & P was left stranded on the platform side.
 

Ianigsy

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Or a platform ticket?
I would object to having to buy a platform ticket in order to collect my property.

The reverse situation happens at Manchester Victoria, where all the facilities are in the public area of the station, so you have to pass through the barriers in order to use the shops, toilets etc.
 

Flange Squeal

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I would object to having to buy a platform ticket in order to collect my property.
If you don’t want to accept the rules the railway make about access to their property, don't choose to have your property delivered there....
 

Wolfie

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If you don’t want to accept the rules the railway make about access to their property, don't choose to have your property delivered there....
Fine. How much money will the railway make from having the parcel facility there? How long will that continue once the customer complaints start? Rather too many seem to want the railway to be able to have it's cake and eat it - the most stupid attitude ever!
 

Flange Squeal

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Fine. How much money will the railway make from having the parcel facility there? How long will that continue once the customer complaints start? Rather too many seem to want the railway to be able to have it's cake and eat it - the most stupid attitude ever!
How about if I chose to get it delivered to a locker inside my local supermarket, then complained that I had to queue up with everyone else to get in to access it? Or chose to get it delivered to a shop, then complained that they expect me to show up only within their opening hours to collect MY property? Surely this is no different - I chose to get it delivered there, so should expect to have to abide by the rules of said premises?

A locker at a station is clearly intended for people who are using the train, I guess most common examples being people who have been out for work or leisure for the day and can collect their parcel on the way home. There are Amazon counters in several shops opposite, and another locker around the corner!
 
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Wolfie

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How about if I chose to get it delivered to a locker inside my local supermarket, then complained that I had to queue up with everyone else to get in to access it? Or chose to get it delivered to a shop, then complained that they expect me to show up only within their opening hours to collect MY property? Surely this is no different - I chose to get it delivered there, so should expect to have to abide by the rules of said premises?

There are Amazon counters in several shops opposite, and another locker around the corner!
I'm not entirely sure, legally, that it is the consumer's property until it is collected. Otherwise Amazon would have no legal liability if the customer pitched up and there was nothing there. The reality is that if the railway wishes to make income from third parties it needs to realise that may well necessitate some flexibility on its part.
 

SickyNicky

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There's also the lost property office at Heathrow T3, which is inside the gateline if I remember correctly. I'm sure they must have a procedure for this sort of thing.
 

Flange Squeal

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The reality is that if the railway wishes to make income from third parties it needs to realise that may well necessitate some flexibility on its part.
But it’s not as though the railway have chosen to have the only locker in Rock Ferry - there is another around the corner, as well as counters in shops opposite. Amazon customers choose where to have their items delivered - they aren’t forced to have it delivered to the one at the station. It just seems logical to me that ones at stations are intended for use by people travelling by train, for example out the house for the day for work/leisure, and gives them the ability to collect their parcel on the way home.

My reference to the delivered item being the consumer’s property was in response to Ianigsy, who talked about it being unfair they’d potentially have to abide by the rules of a property owner when trying to access a property where they chose to have their “property”delivered.
 

Wolfie

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But it’s not as though the railway have chosen to have the only locker in Rock Ferry - there is another around the corner, as well as counters in shops opposite. Amazon customers choose where to have their items delivered - they aren’t forced to have it delivered to the one at the station. It just seems logical to me that ones at stations are intended for use by people travelling by train, for example out the house for the day for work/leisure, and gives them the ability to collect their parcel on the way home.

My reference to the delivered item being the consumer’s property was in response to Ianigsy, who talked about it being unfair they’d potentially have to abide by the rules of a property owner when trying to access a property where they chose to have their “property”delivered.
Reasonable points.
 

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