There are too many preserved railways in the UK: what can be done to make them more viable?

[Dai Corner]

I agree that even for railways with a connection to National Rail or a reliable bus connection, the vast majority of visitors will arrive by private car- particularly families. However with "green" issues becoming more of a hot button, the ability to cater for those not using private cars (and electric cars aren't the answer on their own) is an advantage for those railways that have it.

Should people who worry about "green" issues be supporting preserved railways using steam and heritage diesel traction?

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Are you saying that volunteers who enjoy maintaining and operating railways, families who take the kids to see Thomas and enthusiasts who travel to see and ride behind preserved traction would all buy bikes and take to cycling locally instead?

I would much rather take the children cycling from home, than drive them to a railway. If old rail lines in, say, Sheffield and Manchester were converted to suitable cycleways people would not 'need' to drive into the Peak District to find somewhere safe to cycle.

I do not generally support 'more cycling' but I do favor 'less motoring'.

I wonder what the co2 figures for heritage railways would look, including the car journeys they involve.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Should people who worry about "green" issues be supporting preserved railways using steam and heritage diesel traction?

If they're sensible about where the real harm comes from, and where the most critical changes need to be made, yes.

 

[paul1609]

A preserved railway is a tourist attraction/activity. Hiring bikes and riding down a scenic, safe, traffic free route is as well. I don't know which would be more profitable, but both would work.

There's a shortage of volunteers for preserved railways, so they can just go to other ones if one closed.

Actually at the preserved railway mentioned a few posts up we currently have about 200 new volunteers and the new volunteer acquaint course for safety briefings etc. is fully booked through until about June. That's not to say that we don't have shortages of specific tasks where the training takes months or years but it's not true either to paint a picture where we are in a declining volunteer situation.

 

[Techniquest]

I would much rather take the children cycling from home, than drive them to a railway. If old rail lines in, say, Sheffield and Manchester were converted to suitable cycleways people would not 'need' to drive into the Peak District to find somewhere safe to cycle.

I wonder what the co2 figures for heritage railways would be, including the car journeys they involve.

They might not need to go to the Peak District for it, and I speak as someone who has been examining the map and trying to work out a route to places like the Tissington Trail by rail (as close as I can get, with riding the last bit), but it looks to be an incredibly beautiful area to cycle in. So even if we had a whole ton of cycling routes from old railway formations, there would still be a lot of people heading to the Peak District for some cycling. Based on what I've seen, I cannot blame them, it looks incredible

Of course, I do agree that some old railways could well be converted to a cycleway which I'd love to see. It was done in Hereford, with two former railways converted to shared-use paths and they are most popular. Not a chance they'd ever see use for a railway again anyway, especially one of them which ran through some really remote parts of the county. I rode through some of it where the old railway would have gone through on its way towards Ross-on-Wye, there's absolutely no chance such a line would get re-instated! A shame the old railway is not converted more than it is, as it would be nice and scenic!

 

[Cowley]

I’ve moved the stuff around heritage railways providing commuter services into the thread below so that we can keep this one more on topic…

Heritage Railways providing a public service

Obviously there is not a huge list of railways that could fit this criteria, but I think it's a potentially interesting topic to discuss nonetheless. Certain heritage railways, in particular the longer ones that connect up to (or almost connect to) the mainline network, or those which serve...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[railfan99]

From Australia, in a few months I'll hopefully be travelling on five or six UK heritage railways in 14 days before we head to Europe, plus fit in one Railway Touring Company day trip. Previously I've been on a small number of these heritage lines.

The one I couldn't fit in was Llangollen, because it lacks a main line connection (although bus frequencies seem quite good from Ruabon).

WSR railcams suggest patronage is highly variable. On better weather days, excellent. When it's slightly foggy or rainy, much worse. This line may eventually have semi-regular trains, probably DRCs, to and from Taunton (perhaps on selected weekends?) to link at Bishops Lydeard. So despite having been in financial trouble during COVID, it has a future. It's well promoted with official and unofficial great websites.

Those who state 'there are too many' may omit that you have a population on a relatively small island of 67 million. In comparison, my state of Victoria in Oz has a major 762mm narrow gauge tourist railway in Melbourne (Puffing Billy) and about five other heritage lines, the most faithful of which is that operated by Castlemaine and Maldon Railway Preservation Society, the Victorian Goldfields Railway. Our population is 6.6 million in a state that covers an area about 80 per cent of England, so population density is low once out of Melbourne.

Why don't some of the larger heritage railways like GCR, NYMR, SVR and WSR try to attract more international tourists? Sure, Japanese and mainland Chinese can't come to UK at present in numbers, but these nations plus India has many who love railways. They'll only ever be a minor source of income compared with UK locals, though. Citizens of these three nations are not like USA residents who typically are not used to travelling by rail.

 

[Techniquest]

I'm curious, how would you make a UK heritage railway appeal more to international tourists?

From what I remember of the line, as it's been many years since I last went, you'll love the Llangollen line. Beautiful scenery, a good uphill section going west out of Llangollen to get the locomotives working hard, a decent bit of mileage, job done. As you identify, bus connections from Ruabon are pretty good and drop you off pretty much right next to the railway. I haven't checked if this is still the case, but when I did it that certainly applied.

 

[BayPaul]

I'm curious, how would you make a UK heritage railway appeal more to international tourists?

Perhaps by working together on joint marketing? We are unique in the number and variety of lines in the UK, so promoting that you could visit say 3 or 4 very different lines in a single holiday to a region, perhaps with some kind of joint ticketing could be interesting. Switzerland has a similar system from memory - I remember getting a ticket that allowed me to go on all sorts of lines, cable cars, paddle steamers etc a few years ago

 

[Mikey C]

Perhaps by working together on joint marketing? We are unique in the number and variety of lines in the UK, so promoting that you could visit say 3 or 4 very different lines in a single holiday to a region, perhaps with some kind of joint ticketing could be interesting. Switzerland has a similar system from memory - I remember getting a ticket that allowed me to go on all sorts of lines, cable cars, paddle steamers etc a few years ago

The Swiss joint tickets are more about going to see the dramatic scenery, and indeed a destination (such as a mountain) using several modes of transport, whereas a joint ticket of our heritage railways would just be one form of transport, all going through similar scenery.

 

[MarkyT]

The Swiss joint tickets are more about going to see the dramatic scenery, and indeed a destination (such as a mountain) using several modes of transport, whereas a joint ticket of our heritage railways would just be one form of transport, all going through similar scenery.

Regional tickets usually cover all or most modes in a particular defined area, such as Bernese Overland. Swiss national period tickets may include some local railways, but not typically the most tourist-oriented mountain lines and cable cars. Even the Bernese Overland period pass only gives (or gave, last time I looked) a 50% reduction on the Jungfrauabahn, perhaps the most expensive railway per km in Europe!

 

[Mikey C]

Regional tickets usually cover all or most modes in a particular defined area, such as Bernese Overland. Swiss national period tickets may include some local railways, but not typically the most tourist-oriented mountain lines and cable cars. Even the Bernese Overland period pass only gives (or gave, last time I looked) a 50% reduction on the Jungfrauabahn, perhaps the most expensive railway per km in Europe!

Regional passes work where there is an integrated network, something which wouldn't work with scattered heritage railways, with no connections between them

I was thinking of Swiss day tickets where a single ticket enable the tourist to do one day round trips. For example I remember one I took from Lucerne where you took the cablecar and gondala up Mount Pilatus, the mountain railway down again, then a cruise over a lake back to the City. A great day out for the tourist, with far more variety than one solely on a heritage railway.

 

[Ken H]

Perhaps by working together on joint marketing? We are unique in the number and variety of lines in the UK, so promoting that you could visit say 3 or 4 very different lines in a single holiday to a region, perhaps with some kind of joint ticketing could be interesting. Switzerland has a similar system from memory - I remember getting a ticket that allowed me to go on all sorts of lines, cable cars, paddle steamers etc a few years ago

dont the N Wales narrow gauge railways have a joint marketing thing - the Great Little Trains of Wales? or did they drop that?

 

[BayPaul]

Regional passes work where there is an integrated network, something which wouldn't work with scattered heritage railways, with no connections between them

I was thinking of Swiss day tickets where a single ticket enable the tourist to do one day round trips. For example I remember one I took from Lucerne where you took the cablecar and gondala up Mount Pilatus, the mountain railway down again, then a cruise over a lake back to the City. A great day out for the tourist, with far more variety than one solely on a heritage railway.

In the South West, a pass that covered the main lines and scenic branch lines, West Somerset Railway, Dartmouth Steam Railway, South Devon Railway, Bodmin and Wenford Railway, and perhaps some connecting boat trips and buses (Dartmouth - Totnes, Plymouth - Calstock, Starcross - Exmouth boats for example) would create a pretty good integrated network that could be actively promoted to transport fans overseas.

 

[railfan99]

In the South West, a pass that covered the main lines and scenic branch lines, West Somerset Railway, Dartmouth Steam Railway, South Devon Railway, Bodmin and Wenford Railway, and perhaps some connecting boat trips and buses (Dartmouth - Totnes, Plymouth - Calstock, Starcross - Exmouth boats for example) would create a pretty good integrated network that could be actively promoted to transport fans overseas.

Good suggestion. Maybe a passport not from UK would be a prerequisite.

Another idea would be to publicise these railways through major, appropriate social media in selected nations. For instance many Indians are devout railfans and some have the rupees to travel.

 

[mike57]

Another idea would be to publicise these railways through major, appropriate social media in selected nations. For instance many Indians are devout railfans and some have the rupees to travel.

Do the majoroity of tourist coming from countries mentioned further up the thread arrive on a package tour, or are they independent tourists setting their own itinerary. Obviously any marketing needs to reach those setting the itinerary, either "packaged" or independent. Considering the number of overseas tourists in York, very few of them make it to the NYMR in my experience, which is a local to me example.

 

[LeeLivery]

I'm curious, how would you make a UK heritage railway appeal more to international tourists?

From what I remember of the line, as it's been many years since I last went, you'll love the Llangollen line. Beautiful scenery, a good uphill section going west out of Llangollen to get the locomotives working hard, a decent bit of mileage, job done. As you identify, bus connections from Ruabon are pretty good and drop you off pretty much right next to the railway. I haven't checked if this is still the case, but when I did it that certainly applied.

TikToc. Honestly, the level of patronage that app can produce for business is unbelievable. If you're in London's Chinatown you can tell which shop has gone viral on TikToc, just by the queues outside.

Just like there are many tourists who travel from London to Bicester, Oxford, Cambridge, and Edinburgh, there are many who'll go to a historic British steam railway, if it's marketed right.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TikToc. Honestly, the level of patronage that app can produce for business is unbelievable. If you're in London's Chinatown you can tell which shop has gone viral on TikToc, just by the queues outside.

Just like there are many tourists who travel from London to Bicester, Oxford, Cambridge, and Edinburgh, there are many who'll go to a historic British steam railway, if it's marketed right.

If it can make people go to a fairly average fish and chip shop in a fairly average suburb of Coventry...

 

[LeeLivery]

If it can make people go to a fairly average fish and chip shop in a fairly average suburb of Coventry...

Well, exactly. Best PR for fish and chips in yonks!

 

[Magdalia]

Do the majoroity of tourist coming from countries mentioned further up the thread arrive on a package tour, or are they independent tourists setting their own itinerary. Obviously any marketing needs to reach those setting the itinerary, either "packaged" or independent. Considering the number of overseas tourists in York, very few of them make it to the NYMR in my experience, which is a local to me example.

Much depends on language. Fluent English speakers are far more likely to set their own itinerary.

TikToc. Honestly, the level of patronage that app can produce for business is unbelievable. If you're in London's Chinatown you can tell which shop has gone viral on TikToc, just by the queues outside.

Just like there are many tourists who travel from London to Bicester, Oxford, Cambridge, and Edinburgh, there are many who'll go to a historic British steam railway, if it's marketed right.

Tourists from the Far East are much more likely to use a package, with a London base. Substitute Stratford upon Avon for Edinburgh and you have the standard Chinese tourist package, though Bicester Village is last on the itinerary not first. Before the pandemic Cambridge would be swarming with organised parties of foreign tourists following a guide, who would be carrying a lollipop, so that they were identifiable in the crowds, and giving a running commentary in their own language.

I doubt that a preserved railway is going to go viral on tiktok like a shop in Chinatown.

But many preserved railways already do significant business with coach parties either on day trips or packages.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, exactly. Best PR for fish and chips in yonks!

Though it wasn't, it seems, even a particularly good chippy. I think the "mega" just refers to its relatively large size.

https://www.leeds-live.co.uk/news/celebs-tv/rate-takeaways-danny-malin-reviews-24144320 seems to suggest it's a bit average. Shame it wasn't one that had a better product, e.g. one with really fresh fish on the North Wales Coast!

 

[Runningaround]

Do heritage railways have a National Trust partnership? if not can they set-up together and either join or do ones themselves and have a membership that promotes and offers deals. Perhaps each participant can meet a criteria to be part so that a visitor doesn't turn up at a poor or badly run operation that could ruin their perception of Heritage Railways at the detriment of the good ones.
A Pacer running 1 mile up and down a former mineral line it's never worked as a hobby by enthusiasts to play trains is hardly preservation of a time gone by.

 

[LeeLivery]

Much depends on language. Fluent English speakers are far more likely to set their own itinerary.


Tourists from the Far East are much more likely to use a package, with a London base. Substitute Stratford upon Avon for Edinburgh and you have the standard Chinese tourist package, though Bicester Village is last on the itinerary not first. Before the pandemic Cambridge would be swarming with organised parties of foreign tourists following a guide, who would be carrying a lollipop, so that they were identifiable in the crowds, and giving a running commentary in their own language.

I doubt that a preserved railway is going to go viral on tiktok like a shop in Chinatown.

But many preserved railways already do significant business with coach parties either on day trips or packages.

That's fair, but there's always the ability for this to be changed through media popularity.

Maybe I'm being simplistic, but I think many people probably don't even realise a lot of these things exist. Most young people have never seen a steam train in person, let alone been on one. Yet if one passes by, not a single person isn't looking. The likes of the Bluebell Railway have London on their doorstep; get a big YouTuber and TikToc account to do a good video or two, empathising it's one hour from Victoria and you'll see young tourists in particular, coming just for the Instagram pic with a caption about Thomas the Tank engine. It might not draw the crazy crowds, but it'd could be very noticeable. Tourists go all the way to Lavender Fields in Banstead after all...

Though it wasn't, it seems, even a particularly good chippy. I think the "mega" just refers to its relatively large size.

https://www.leeds-live.co.uk/news/celebs-tv/rate-takeaways-danny-malin-reviews-24144320 seems to suggest it's a bit average. Shame it wasn't one that had a better product, e.g. one with really fresh fish on the North Wales Coast!

Yep, a lot of these viral places are overrated. But many products from companies only sell because they got a Don Draper in their department to do their marketing. At least with social media, the money is going to independent companies without spending big bucks.

 

[mike57]

Another question - Is there any sort of preservation movement in China, which seems to contribute a good proportion of our overseas visitors. Which then leads to the question of them maybe not even realising that the attractions exist. I know the USA have similar undertakings to our preserved railways, so the concept would be more understandable to USA visitors. Railways are very important in a lot of the Far East, and the Chinese have embraced high speed rail, so I would have thought the more historical side would be of interest to at least some of them.

The only down side I can see is that a lot of preserved railways concentrate on providing an experience which is related to UK railways as they were in the period from maybe 1930's to 1950's, for obvious reasons, because in a lot of cases older stuff is not available. (less so with engines, but with a few exceptions heritage railways tend to run Mk 1 carriages for the most part, because that is what is available).

 

[daodao]

Do heritage railways have a National Trust partnership? if not can they set-up together and either join or do ones themselves and have a membership that promotes and offers deals. Perhaps each participant can meet a criteria to be part so that a visitor doesn't turn up at a poor or badly run operation that could ruin their perception of Heritage Railways at the detriment of the good ones.

For a few National Trust properties, there could be a partnership with a nearby preserved railway to access the site. Possible examples include:

• Sheffield Park, served by the Bluebell Railway
• Bodiam Castle, served by the Kent and East Sussex Railway
• Corfe Castle, served by the Swanage Railway

 

[Runningaround]

For a few National Trust properties, there could be a partnership with a nearby preserved railway to access the site. Possible examples include:

• Sheffield Park, served by the Bluebell Railway
• Bodiam Castle, served by the Kent and East Sussex Railway
• Corfe Castle, served by the Swanage Railway

I'm not sure if there is a NT property there.
I'd love to see a partnership with WM Safari park and the Severn Valley, with a station connecting or a bus to the nearest,
The opportunity to split the day and do both can be made less chaotic if they worked on potential itinerary together.

 

[21C195 Brentor]

I'm not sure if there is a NT property there.
I'd love to see a partnership with WM Safari park and the Severn Valley, with a station connecting or a bus to the nearest,
The opportunity to split the day and do both can be made less chaotic if they worked on potential itinerary together.

There are two NT properties very close to the SVR, a watermill near Bewdley and a big house near Eardington/Hampton Loade. There is a disused halt or something right opposite the Dudmaston Estate on the SVR, but the building is a private property, plus you'd need a footbridge across the river to really capitalise on that trade. Could be done but not cheap.

 

[Runningaround]

There are two NT properties very close to the SVR, a watermill near Bewdley and a big house near Eardington/Hampton Loade. There is a disused halt or something right opposite the Dudmaston Estate on the SVR, but the building is a private property, plus you'd need a footbridge across the river to really capitalise on that trade. Could be done but not cheap.

I'd be more interested in a link between West Midland Safari than those two. But heritage attractions in the vicinity should think together more, rather than consider each other as rival attractions.

I see this in Rail heritage usually between a popular ''big'' railway with disgruntled volunteers who couldn't get to play the good jobs setting up themselves to ensure they get to do the driving. Fine if they can afford to run the line but when visitors get a choice don't be surprised if they choose the line with more than 1/2 mile of track and with rolling stock that fits the history it's portraying.

 

[21C195 Brentor]

I'd be more interested in a link between West Midland Safari than those two. But heritage attractions in the vicinity should think together more, rather than consider each other as rival attractions.

I see this in Rail heritage usually between a popular ''big'' railway with disgruntled volunteers who couldn't get to play the good jobs setting up themselves to ensure they get to do the driving. Fine if they can afford to run the line but when visitors get a choice don't be surprised if they choose the line with more than 1/2 mile of track and with rolling stock that fits the history it's portraying.

It is for the reasons you outline that I am banned from the Plym Valley Railway's social media. I dared to point out that nobody thinks preserving Pacers is a good idea, that the general fare-paying public despises them as the hateful shyteboxes they are, that even when out of use they're an unsightly waste of space detracting from the line's appeal to its visitors, and that they should be spending that money instead on more steam services, better visitor facilities and/or extending their pitifully short running line. This, predictably, did not go down well with the Pacer-lovers, who want nothing more than to bash their glorified buses up and down the same mile of track while the public picks up the fuel bill. I'd be surprised if they're even still there a decade hence... and they aren't even the worst. Don’t even get me going on the downright criminal fustercluck that is Shillingstone. Oh well, at least the latter is preventing a heritage railway operation from starting, it just means people will spend their money at MSN or Swanage instead. Likewise PVR will not be competing with SDR in fundraising.

 

[Dai Corner]

It is for the reasons you outline that I am banned from the Plym Valley Railway's social media. I dared to point out that nobody thinks preserving Pacers is a good idea, that the general fare-paying public despises them as the hateful shyteboxes they are, that even when out of use they're an unsightly waste of space detracting from the line's appeal to its visitors, and that they should be spending that money instead on more steam services, better visitor facilities and/or extending their pitifully short running line. This, predictably, did not go down well with the Pacer-lovers, who want nothing more than to bash their glorified buses up and down the same mile of track while the public picks up the fuel bill. I'd be surprised if they're even still there a decade hence... and they aren't even the worst. Don’t even get me going on the downright criminal fustercluck that is Shillingstone. Oh well, at least the latter is preventing a heritage railway operation from starting, it just means people will spend their money at MSN or Swanage instead. Likewise PVR will not be competing with SDR in fundraising.

The public are prepared to pay to be passengers on Pacers then? Everyone to their own, surely?

I can't remember steam in BR or pre-BR service and my childhood journeys were in EMUs but I don't slag off the 'kettle-lovers' who like to trundle their large express locos up and down branch lines at 25mph; something they'd never have done in normal service.