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There must be a better way.....

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Western Sunset

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Not sure if this is the correct place to post this, but I'm getting really concerned about the way that certain customers/passengers are being treated and the almost haphazard way that they are dealt with by some staff and external investigation/fraud firms (you know the one I'm alluding to in particular).

Granted we do not know all the facts but recent cases on here (told ticket was invalid when it wasn't, difficulties in filling in the date on a ticket etc, etc) appear to put totally innocent folk under great stress with talk of court appearances and hefty fines.

Obviously there will always be those who "try it on", but it does appear that an immediate suspicion of guilt, a heavy-handed approach, with little or no investigation carried out, seems to be the norm at the moment.

How can we make things fairer? Is there anything I can do, as an individual, to improve this system?
 
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robbeech

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One way to make things fairer would be to have some form of actual regulation within the railway rather than several groups of people that have job titles that give the impression of being such.
 

ainsworth74

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Is there anything I can do, as an individual, to improve this system?

Write to you MP I'd suggest. It is an issue of structure in that the of the three organisations that are supposed to look after passenger (to some extent at least) we have one which doesn't actually care about it's consumer regulation role (the ORR) and the other two lack the ability to understand the issues that they're presented with (Rail Ombudsman and Transport Focus).

It is, also, of course an issue of law. RoRA S5 is law made by Parliament so only Parliament can do anything about it (see also the Penalty Fare Regulations). Whilst I'm a bit hazier on the Byelaws (as in who actually wrote them) they're given effect by a Statutory Instrument and an Act of Parliament so again it would be up to Parliament to do anything about it.

I suppose, regarding a certain organisation that is contracted to several different TOCs to prosecute cases, the media might possibly get interested in some of their more egregious antics such as prosecuting innocent people. But I suspect it might be a hard story to package up neatly and attractively.
 

hkstudent

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Write to you MP I'd suggest. It is an issue of structure in that the of the three organisations that are supposed to look after passenger (to some extent at least) we have one which doesn't actually care about it's consumer regulation role (the ORR) and the other two lack the ability to understand the issues that they're presented with (Rail Ombudsman and Transport Focus).

It is, also, of course an issue of law. RoRA S5 is law made by Parliament so only Parliament can do anything about it (see also the Penalty Fare Regulations). Whilst I'm a bit hazier on the Byelaws (as in who actually wrote them) they're given effect by a Statutory Instrument and an Act of Parliament so again it would be up to Parliament to do anything about it.

I suppose, regarding a certain organisation that is contracted to several different TOCs to prosecute cases, the media might possibly get interested in some of their more egregious antics such as prosecuting innocent people. But I suspect it might be a hard story to package up neatly and attractively.
Yes, but good luck with the MP way as I suspect the railway regulation would be one of the least concerned area of a MP.
Media coverage would be a more effective in voicing this kind of view I think...
 

GusB

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BBC Watchdog has covered some ticketing issues recently, but perhaps the subject warrants a more in-depth investigation. I don't know if Panorama would be interested, but C4 Dispatches have certainly covered railway issues before. If they were made aware of enough cases they may give it some attention.
 

ainsworth74

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Yes, but good luck with the MP way as I suspect the railway regulation would be one of the least concerned area of a MP.
Media coverage would be a more effective in voicing this kind of view I think...
Sure, I don't disagree the MP route is likely to be ineffective and that the media angle might be more effective. I'm just not hopeful of a) the media actually getting that interested in it and b) even if they do it gaining enough traction to bring about real change rather than a sticking plaster in the form of a soundbite that makes it sound like something is being done.
 

Fawkes Cat

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Not sure if this is the correct place to post this, but I'm getting really concerned about the way that certain customers/passengers are being treated and the almost haphazard way that they are dealt with by some staff and external investigation/fraud firms (you know the one I'm alluding to in particular).

Granted we do not know all the facts but recent cases on here (told ticket was invalid when it wasn't, difficulties in filling in the date on a ticket etc, etc) appear to put totally innocent folk under great stress with talk of court appearances and hefty fines.

Obviously there will always be those who "try it on", but it does appear that an immediate suspicion of guilt, a heavy-handed approach, with little or no investigation carried out, seems to be the norm at the moment.

How can we make things fairer? Is there anything I can do, as an individual, to improve this system?

Sorry if this is overly pedantic, but before taking a challenge forward, we need to have our facts right. So in the examples that the OP has quoted, the poster who has had problems with dating their NR free ticket hasn't yet had any interaction with TIL - just with some NR train crew.

That's not to say that the matter shouldn't be taken further as an example of the railway not being customer friendly, but using that as an example to an MP or other authority about TIL's sins would open the way to TIL saying 'this example is nothing to do with us: so we will assume that all the other examples are equally irrelevant'. That's not the result that we would want.
 

Brissle Girl

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You and Yours on Radio 4 would be a good option, but you would have to be willing to be interviewed and also get someone who has actually been involved to speak too, else I doubt they would be interested.
 

cuccir

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While I don't think that the system is particuarly fair - I don't think laws that criminalize mistakes are good laws - we should be concious that we see a small fraction, less than a single percent, of all fare evasion cases across the country on this forum: eg, 1300 people were prosecuted in 2 months of Dec 19-Jan 20 by Greater Anglia alone. The same article quotes 4000-6000 penatly fares a month for GA. By contrast, I suspect this forum averages somewhere around 1 case a day.

I don't know if the cases we see on this forum are representative of what must be tens of thousands of people who are prosecuted or receive penalty fares a month, but I'm willing to believe that they're not: it stands to reason that we will see a higher representation of people who have genuinely made an error or who are being chased-up incorrectly.

I'd happily agree with the argument that 1 case of inappropriate prosecution is a Bad Thing, even if there are thousands of people who are properly caught, but it is worht noting that this forum might lead us to misunderstand the scale of the problem.
 

Haywain

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While I don't think that the system is particuarly fair - I don't think laws that criminalize mistakes are good laws - we should be concious that we see a small fraction, less than a single percent, of all fare evasion cases across the country on this forum: eg, 1300 people were prosecuted in 2 months of Dec 19-Jan 20 by Greater Anglia alone. The same article quotes 4000-6000 penatly fares a month for GA. By contrast, I suspect this forum averages somewhere around 1 case a day.

I don't know if the cases we see on this forum are representative of what must be tens of thousands of people who are prosecuted or receive penalty fares a month, but I'm willing to believe that they're not: it stands to reason that we will see a higher representation of people who have genuinely made an error or who are being chased-up incorrectly.

I'd happily agree with the argument that 1 case of inappropriate prosecution is a Bad Thing, even if there are thousands of people who are properly caught, but it is worth noting that this forum might lead us to misunderstand the scale of the problem.
Equally, many people make mistakes and don't get issued with penalty fares or reported for prosecution and we don't see more than an absolutely minute number of those either.
 

Antman

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Not sure if this is the correct place to post this, but I'm getting really concerned about the way that certain customers/passengers are being treated and the almost haphazard way that they are dealt with by some staff and external investigation/fraud firms (you know the one I'm alluding to in particular).

Granted we do not know all the facts but recent cases on here (told ticket was invalid when it wasn't, difficulties in filling in the date on a ticket etc, etc) appear to put totally innocent folk under great stress with talk of court appearances and hefty fines.

Obviously there will always be those who "try it on", but it does appear that an immediate suspicion of guilt, a heavy-handed approach, with little or no investigation carried out, seems to be the norm at the moment.

How can we make things fairer? Is there anything I can do, as an individual, to improve this system?
I agree about the haphazard nature of it all, there are people who have no intentions of paying who get away with it time and again whilst some other poor sod gets crucified for an innocent mistake.
 

Fawkes Cat

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some other poor sod gets crucified for an innocent mistake.
Let's keep a sense of proportion here. Accepting that not everyone who seeks our help comes back to tell us the outcome, can anyone remember a case where the conclusion was deeply unfair? Certainly we see cases where people settle out of court for maybe a couple of hundred pounds when our collective view was that they could have won in court - but the fact that they've chosen to settle suggests that while the penalty might be unfair, it's an amount of money that they can afford to pay for peace of mind. That's unfair - but not deeply, or crucifyingly, unfair.
 

Wombat

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I don't know what qualifies as "crucifyingly unfair" (to be unfairly crucified? o_O) but I think that "deeply unfair" is at least arguable.

Most people who are incorrectly issued with a penalty fare under threat of court action will suffer at least some amount of stress and incur costs of time and/or money. That's not deeply unfair by itself, but there is (as far as I know) no compensation due to the passenger by the TOC for mistakenly putting a person through that unpleasant and potentially expensive process, while a passenger making a mistake may find themselves guilty of committing an offence. On top of that, the industry is undoubtedly demanding money which is not due to it, under threat of court action - the only question is the amount. I also question the assertion that penalties running into the hundred of pounds are affordable - that some people can acquire the money from, say, a pay-day lender doesn't in all cases meet a reasonable definition of "affordable".

The TOCs could improve their staff training and employ people with a better understanding of the regulations and ticketing systems, but this would cost them money in training, employment and loss of (unwarranted) income. So there's a perverse incentive for them to maintain the status quo, as they're not sufficiently (or at all?) punished for doing so.

I'd argue that the deck is structurally stacked against the passenger in favour of the industry, and I don't think that "deeply unfair" is an unreasonable characterisation.
 

PupCuff

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My take on it is really the key improvement would be making the byelaws more like motoring offences, enforceable via fixed penalty, akin to a speeding ticket, where you can either accept the legally set fine and avoid court, or take it to court if you want to contest it.
With a proper fixed penalty system for the byelaws there'd be no more lack of consistency across TOCs, there'd be no more clogging up court time with people who'd have probably been able to settle out of court if they'd taken the initiative anyway, but its still backed up by the threat of court prosecution if you fail to pay the fixed penalty.
RoRA prosecutions could remain as they are but then would naturally only be used for clear cases where there was an active intention to not pay (altering tickets, doughnutting etc).
 

Scott1

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I think the elephant in the room is actually the ticketing system itself. Its accepted by RDG, passenger groups and TOCs that it is far too complex, and as a result passengers and staff end up struggling. I think simplifying the fare system would help reduce the number of issues with the wrong type of ticket.
 

Hadders

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I think simplifying the fare system would help reduce the number of issues with the wrong type of ticket.

It is the train companies themselves who have made the ticketing system complex, despite what they might try to claim however if fares are simplified the good value fares will end up being removed.

Be careful what you wish for...
 

LMS 4F

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I think the elephant in the room is actually the ticketing system itself. Its accepted by RDG, passenger groups and TOCs that it is far too complex, and as a result passengers and staff end up struggling. I think simplifying the fare system would help reduce the number of issues with the wrong type of ticket.
This was the basis of my point in a thread I started a couple of weeks ago. The TOCs have made the system what it is and are using it to their advantage. There are far too many types of tickets and rail cards and the like with assorted benefits.
 

John Luxton

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Not sure if this is the correct place to post this, but I'm getting really concerned about the way that certain customers/passengers are being treated and the almost haphazard way that they are dealt with by some staff and external investigation/fraud firms (you know the one I'm alluding to in particular).

How can we make things fairer? Is there anything I can do, as an individual, to improve this system?

First of all though I confess to having been a railway enthusiast all my life after I passed my driving test in 1982 any long distance journeys stopped and between then and now my rail journeys have been heritage lines and West Country branch lines reached by car plus my local Merseyrail electric network.

However, having recently retired and turned 60 I have just acquired a railcard and intend soon to do a bit of exploring by train and see just how the network has changed further afield as it was all BR when I last rode round the country by train.

I have been a member of Railforums for some time and often read postings in this section. It is clear that some people are trying it one and deserve to get caught. No Sympathies there BUT from some posts you can see there is genuine anger / upset at the attitude of staff towards people some who have clearly made a mistake or have been even had a ticket which they believe to be valid and are then told it isn't

From my recollections of some extensive rail roving 1978 to 1981 I observed fare dodgers and others being dealt with by guards and TTIs without the seemed aggression that a lot of people report comes from the RPI's today.

In first with only a standard ticket? - please pay the difference or leave for example.

Not got a ticket? Out came the excess fare pad and the ticket-less person paid up.

Another concept which I find difficult to understand is claiming say a person with an advanced purchase ticket can only use it one the train shown on the ticket.

If otherwise the ticket is considered completely invalid.

Surely the system here should be to deduct the fare already paid from the standard fare and just charge the difference and issue a new ticket.

None of this travelling without a valid ticket nonsense which can lead to prosecution. The passenger has got a ticket but just not for the right train so really all they should pay up for is the discount between the two fares. They should not have to pay the complete fare again. To me this seems unreasonable.

Perhaps we should simplify fares. What was wrong with the old system:
Standard Return / Single
Day Return
Weekend Return
Short Break Return

That covered just about every travel option people would want. There were some restrictions such as peak / off peak but that was always quite clear.

If the fares system was simplified and the handling of ticket irregularities dealt with in a less confrontational manner would it not make the railways a better place. Surely the transport investigation companies and prosecution departments must cost a lot of money to run? Just having regular staff on board trains and at stations checking tickets would still secure revenue, and would probably see a lot less posts here!!

John
 

RT4038

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First of all though I confess to having been a railway enthusiast all my life after I passed my driving test in 1982 any long distance journeys stopped and between then and now my rail journeys have been heritage lines and West Country branch lines reached by car plus my local Merseyrail electric network.

However, having recently retired and turned 60 I have just acquired a railcard and intend soon to do a bit of exploring by train and see just how the network has changed further afield as it was all BR when I last rode round the country by train.

I have been a member of Railforums for some time and often read postings in this section. It is clear that some people are trying it one and deserve to get caught. No Sympathies there BUT from some posts you can see there is genuine anger / upset at the attitude of staff towards people some who have clearly made a mistake or have been even had a ticket which they believe to be valid and are then told it isn't

From my recollections of some extensive rail roving 1978 to 1981 I observed fare dodgers and others being dealt with by guards and TTIs without the seemed aggression that a lot of people report comes from the RPI's today.

In first with only a standard ticket? - please pay the difference or leave for example.

Not got a ticket? Out came the excess fare pad and the ticket-less person paid up.

Another concept which I find difficult to understand is claiming say a person with an advanced purchase ticket can only use it one the train shown on the ticket.

If otherwise the ticket is considered completely invalid.

Surely the system here should be to deduct the fare already paid from the standard fare and just charge the difference and issue a new ticket.

None of this travelling without a valid ticket nonsense which can lead to prosecution. The passenger has got a ticket but just not for the right train so really all they should pay up for is the discount between the two fares. They should not have to pay the complete fare again. To me this seems unreasonable.

Perhaps we should simplify fares. What was wrong with the old system:
Standard Return / Single
Day Return
Weekend Return
Short Break Return

That covered just about every travel option people would want. There were some restrictions such as peak / off peak but that was always quite clear.

If the fares system was simplified and the handling of ticket irregularities dealt with in a less confrontational manner would it not make the railways a better place. Surely the transport investigation companies and prosecution departments must cost a lot of money to run? Just having regular staff on board trains and at stations checking tickets would still secure revenue, and would probably see a lot less posts here!!

John

But your 'handling ticket irregularities dealt with in a less confrontational manner' is just another name for 'only pay when challenged' , without any kind of penalty to dissuade people in the future. The penalty usually causing the confrontation. However, the majority of passengers, who do buy the right tickets, should not be paying for the enforcement on those who don't.
 

Fare-Cop

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But your 'handling ticket irregularities dealt with in a less confrontational manner' is just another name for 'only pay when challenged' , without any kind of penalty to dissuade people in the future. The penalty usually causing the confrontation. However, the majority of passengers, who do buy the right tickets, should not be paying for the enforcement on those who don't.

I couldn't agree more, I joined BR in 1977 and was a first a TTI back in the early 80's, the period referred to by John Luxton in post 18.

The Appeal Court judgment generally referred to in relation to 'payment only when challenged' (Corbyn) dates from 1978 and as TTIs, we were dealing with many such Section 5, Regulation Of Railways Act [1889] offences back then, as well as selling tickets on Pad 4407 when that action was appropriate, but for a variety of reasons and particularly in some areas, the habit of paying only if challenged has proliferated through the last 20 years.

It's not 'all the fiddlers' that is the sole problem though, a ridiculously complex and fragmented ticket & railcard system has made matters much worse for travellers and staff alike. This leads to frustration and escalation of conflict on both sides. The whole system is in need of root and branch overhaul and simplification before any meaningful improvements will be seen.
 

LMS 4F

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I couldn't agree more, I joined BR in 1977 and was a first a TTI back in the early 80's, the period referred to by John Luxton in post 18.

The Appeal Court judgment generally referred to in relation to 'payment only when challenged' (Corbyn) dates from 1978 and as TTIs, we were dealing with many such Section 5, Regulation Of Railways Act [1889] offences back then, as well as selling tickets on Pad 4407 when that action was appropriate, but for a variety of reasons and particularly in some areas, the habit of paying only if challenged has proliferated through the last 20 years.

It's not 'all the fiddlers' that is the sole problem though, a ridiculously complex and fragmented ticket & railcard system has made matters much worse for travellers and staff alike. This leads to frustration and escalation of conflict on both sides. The whole system is in need of root and branch overhaul and simplification before any meaningful improvements will be seen.
Well said, far too many types of tickets and rail cards etc.
 

ian959

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In the end everything gets back to 3 facts:
1. No matter what system you use, no matter how simple and easy you make it, there will always be a significant element of the population who will try it on and complain about everything when they are caught.
2. People generally get more stressed when the work they are expected to do is far greater than what is reasonable - in other words, the ever growing demand on the trains causes problems of stress, anger and rage.
3. The ticketing system is far far far too complicated with far too many exceptions/variations to the norm - validity codes and permitted routes for instance that no normal passenger would ever understand and no single railway employee could ever remember or interpret (and have the time to check given point 2).

The one that needs to be fixed first is the complicated ticketing system, at least in my view. There should be one basic fare between point A and point B. The route you take between point A and point B should be irrelevant as the vast majority of passengers would take the quickest/most obvious route. Only a very small number of people would realistically travel from, as an example, Wolverhampton (point A) to Birmingham (point B) by any other route than the direct one. Children and pensioners pay 50% of the basic fare. No railcards, no routing restrictions, if you maintain a peak/off peak variance (I would argue against it), set a standard time period that applies across the board based upon departure time of the train from the station at which the passenger boards alone, not varied on a route by route basis or a train by train basis.
 

hkstudent

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Well said, far too many types of tickets and rail cards etc.
Well, this is the way to full capture the market and use low fares to specific groups of people to incentivise rail travel againist car travel. UK is still a much car dependent country compare to European counterparts.
 

Deerfold

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In the end everything gets back to 3 facts:
1. No matter what system you use, no matter how simple and easy you make it, there will always be a significant element of the population who will try it on and complain about everything when they are caught.
2. People generally get more stressed when the work they are expected to do is far greater than what is reasonable - in other words, the ever growing demand on the trains causes problems of stress, anger and rage.
3. The ticketing system is far far far too complicated with far too many exceptions/variations to the norm - validity codes and permitted routes for instance that no normal passenger would ever understand and no single railway employee could ever remember or interpret (and have the time to check given point 2).

The one that needs to be fixed first is the complicated ticketing system, at least in my view. There should be one basic fare between point A and point B. The route you take between point A and point B should be irrelevant as the vast majority of passengers would take the quickest/most obvious route. Only a very small number of people would realistically travel from, as an example, Wolverhampton (point A) to Birmingham (point B) by any other route than the direct one. Children and pensioners pay 50% of the basic fare. No railcards, no routing restrictions, if you maintain a peak/off peak variance (I would argue against it), set a standard time period that applies across the board based upon departure time of the train from the station at which the passenger boards alone, not varied on a route by route basis or a train by train basis.

Nice idea, but what's that 1 basic fare going to be?

If I travel from my local station to London I can typically get an Advance 1st single for £40-50 each way.
The full fare is £460.
What do you think should be charged for this journey?

If there's no higher fare for travelling peak, how do you stop everyone trying to catch the train which arrives in London at 0859 (this train is currently usually full)?
 

6Gman

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Another concept which I find difficult to understand is claiming say a person with an advanced purchase ticket can only use it one the train shown on the ticket.

If otherwise the ticket is considered completely invalid.

Surely the system here should be to deduct the fare already paid from the standard fare and just charge the difference and issue a new ticket.

None of this travelling without a valid ticket nonsense which can lead to prosecution. The passenger has got a ticket but just not for the right train so really all they should pay up for is the discount between the two fares. They should not have to pay the complete fare again. To me this seems unreasonable.


John

But ...

Wouldn't everybody then buy the Advance and upgrade only when challenged?

And on journeys where the ticket isn't checked they'd get away with it.
 

6Gman

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The one that needs to be fixed first is the complicated ticketing system, at least in my view. There should be one basic fare between point A and point B. The route you take between point A and point B should be irrelevant as the vast majority of passengers would take the quickest/most obvious route. Only a very small number of people would realistically travel from, as an example, Wolverhampton (point A) to Birmingham (point B) by any other route than the direct one. Children and pensioners pay 50% of the basic fare. No railcards, no routing restrictions, if you maintain a peak/off peak variance (I would argue against it), set a standard time period that applies across the board based upon departure time of the train from the station at which the passenger boards alone, not varied on a route by route basis or a train by train basis.

So what's to stop me using a Crewe - Stafford ticket as an All Lines Rail Rover ?
 

6Gman

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No railcards, no routing restrictions, if you maintain a peak/off peak variance (I would argue against it), set a standard time period that applies across the board based upon departure time of the train from the station at which the passenger boards alone, not varied on a route by route basis or a train by train basis.

What about people travelling to/from far-flung places? And are you saying that this "standard time" should apply equally to London Euston and Pwwlheli ?
 

PeterC

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What about people travelling to/from far-flung places? And are you saying that this "standard time" should apply equally to London Euston and Pwwlheli ?
Sounds reasonable to me. Of course there might be no price differential between "peak" and "off peak" fares at some stations.
 

packermac

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In the end everything gets back to 3 facts:
1. No matter what system you use, no matter how simple and easy you make it, there will always be a significant element of the population who will try it on and complain about everything when they are caught.
If there was a nationwide standard that said no ticket then no travel (yes that would mean a TVM would need to be put somewhere like Berney Arms everyone would no where they stood.
But we have Penalty Fares areas, buy on trains from a conductor (if he bothers), rules that appear not to be observed by some TOC's but are by others.
It is no wonder honest passengers are confused and as you say some will always try to fare dodge.
 

Hadders

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If there was a nationwide standard that said no ticket then no travel (yes that would mean a TVM would need to be put somewhere like Berney Arms everyone would no where they stood.
But we have Penalty Fares areas, buy on trains from a conductor (if he bothers), rules that appear not to be observed by some TOC's but are by others.
It is no wonder honest passengers are confused and as you say some will always try to fare dodge.

That’s fine but what happens when the TVM at Barney Arms is out of order?

Would TVMs be able to sell every ticket?

I’ve travelled extensively across the network and it is tricky to compare how you enforce revenue on a 12 car fully wedged train travelling towards London in the morning peak with a 1 car service on a rural branch line with a handful of passengers on board.
 
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