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Theresa May Resigns & Conservative Leader Election Discussion

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edwin_m

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I'm not sure anybody's told Gove that that bus he kept seeing in the referendum campaign was lying. He always made George Osborne look like an intellectual colossus, which is fairly impressive when you think about it.
I got the impression George Osborne was brighter than most of the current lot, but used his intelligence for political ends (austerity, nearly destroying the LibDems) rather than for the benefit of the country. He wasn't intelligent enough to see that these actions would lead to the vote for Brexit and all the troubles we are in today.
 
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433N

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I got the impression George Osborne was brighter than most of the current lot, but used his intelligence for political ends (austerity, nearly destroying the LibDems) rather than for the benefit of the country. He wasn't intelligent enough to see that these actions would lead to the vote for Brexit and all the troubles we are in today.

I'm not sure how bright Osborne was but he should have never been let anywhere near the Treasury as he was well out of his depth there due to his complete lack of understanding of basic economics.

He could be a genius since he made the rich richer and the poor poorer which is the prime aim of the Tories and they still won the next GE. However, I'm inclined to think that was an unforeseen accident and he was actually a bit of a thickie. That oft-quoted-by-right-wing-nutters anecdote that they inherited a note left at the Treasury saying 'Sorry, there's no money left' was actually a joke that Osborne failed to grasp. He never really understood that he could print more (hence, austerity) and it would certainly not have devalued the pound as much as the vote to Brexit has.
 

edwin_m

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I'm not sure how bright Osborne was but he should have never been let anywhere near the Treasury as he was well out of his depth there due to his complete lack of understanding of basic economics.

He could be a genius since he made the rich richer and the poor poorer which is the prime aim of the Tories and they still won the next GE. However, I'm inclined to think that was an unforeseen accident and he was actually a bit of a thickie. That oft-quoted-by-right-wing-nutters anecdote that they inherited a note left at the Treasury saying 'Sorry, there's no money left' was actually a joke that Osborne failed to grasp. He never really understood that he could print more (hence, austerity) and it would certainly not have devalued the pound as much as the vote to Brexit has.
I believe the Tories became the largest party in 2010 on the old Thatchite argument that the country should be run like a household and if you are living beyond your means the answer is to cut spending. They either didn't know or chose to ignore what would and did happen, that the austerity measures hit the economy and tax income and became self-perpetuating, not to mention all the social consequences which were a big factor in Brexit. Gordon Brown's 2010 line, while more in tune with economic principles, was a much harder sell to the public. The same approach was even more politically successful in 2015, to the extent that the Tories no longer needed the LibDems, thus destroying Cameron's probable assumption that he could promise a Brexit referendum but wouldn't have to deliver it.
 

Typhoon

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That oft-quoted-by-right-wing-nutters anecdote that they inherited a note left at the Treasury saying 'Sorry, there's no money left' was actually a joke that Osborne failed to grasp.
I am not sure that he failed to grasp that it was a joke, I am more confident that he knew he could get The Daily Crucible or The Daily Excess to put it on the front page to discredit Labour when his austerity programme came in ('the alternative is a country that is broke'). What was less than intelligent was that the author of the note, Liam Byrne, did not seem to realise that it would be used against the Brown government.
 

700007

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I’ve spoken with a few people in Boris’ constituency, who have never voted for anyone other than a Tory in their life. They. Didn’t mind him as mayor, but not so much as an MP, I suspect he would lose if there was a by election there.
Only if there was close to full turn out. Otherwise he should be safe. It is Uxbridge that wants him out in favour of Corbyn's friends but South / Ruislip will always vote in favour of any Conservative even if it is BoJo.
 

Busaholic

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I got the impression George Osborne was brighter than most of the current lot, but used his intelligence for political ends (austerity, nearly destroying the LibDems) rather than for the benefit of the country. He wasn't intelligent enough to see that these actions would lead to the vote for Brexit and all the troubles we are in today.
It'll be interesting to see if the Evening Standard (editor - George Osborne) pontificates about middle class marching powder use, with special reference to politicians and the chattering classes over the last fifteen years, say, whether with photographic evidence or not. It was originally planned, in those heady pre-Referendum days, that M. Gove would be G. Osborne's Campaign Manager when D. Cameron retired to spend more time with his offshore investments, pardon, family.
 

Bantamzen

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To be fair it wasn't a particularly strong case - it was a waste of a bunch of money which almost inevitably gave him the chance to appear vindicated in court, even though they basically vindicated him of nothing. As I understand the reasoning that has been released, it was that he may very well have lied, and he was in public office at the time, but since he did so as part of a campaign it was by definition not part of his public office.

No it wasn't particularly strong, however Johnson has taken full advantage and is now bribing, sorry offering the Tory party membership a big bag of money in the form of high rate tax cuts. I wonder if that will end up on the side of a bus...??
 

dosxuk

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No it wasn't particularly strong, however Johnson has taken full advantage and is now bribing, sorry offering the Tory party membership a big bag of money in the form of high rate tax cuts. I wonder if that will end up on the side of a bus...??

It's alright, he's using the money set aside for a no-deal brexit to fund the tax cuts. It's not like we might need the money for, say, a no-deal brexit like he's proposing.
 

Howardh

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It's alright, he's using the money set aside for a no-deal brexit to fund the tax cuts. It's not like we might need the money for, say, a no-deal brexit like he's proposing.
Look, a bus....

"We give the EU £350m/week; let's spend it on the rich like me and privatise the NHS instead"

Isn't everyone now so glad they voted Brexit as it's now confirmed it's to feather the nests of the rich (and the ERG)??
 

takno

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Look, a bus....

"We give the EU £350m/week; let's spend it on the rich like me and privatise the NHS instead"

Isn't everyone now so glad they voted Brexit as it's now confirmed it's to feather the nests of the rich (and the ERG)??
Oh come on now, it's a raising of the higher rate band. It doesn't just benefit the rich, although they certainly benefit more than anybody else. It benefits the full 30% of the population who need it least
 

EM2

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What was less than intelligent was that the author of the note, Liam Byrne, did not seem to realise that it would be used against the Brown government.
Byrne knew his history, and was simply paraphrasing the Conservative Reginald Maudlin, after the 1964 election defeat to Labour.
Maudling left a note to his successor, James Callaghan, simply stating "Good luck, old cock.... Sorry to leave it in such a mess."
 

Busaholic

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Will Michael Gove fall on his sword, maybe before the day is out? Perhaps his candidacy may not even be submitted by the deadline. The Daily Borisgraph has hardly begun to get its revenge in yet but, believe me, it will, and that's a very influential organ amongst Tory members, who will of course have the final say in who we get landed with as P.M. Gove and his advisors will be well aware that he couldn't get past that final hurdle now even if he scored highest among MPs, now increasingly unlikely. Schadenfreude.
 

Typhoon

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Byrne knew his history, and was simply paraphrasing the Conservative Reginald Maudlin, after the 1964 election defeat to Labour.
Maudling left a note to his successor, James Callaghan, simply stating "Good luck, old cock.... Sorry to leave it in such a mess."
Perhaps, but this was a subtlety that was hardly going to get a mention anywhere (except perhaps The Guardian). The usual suspects (which a large number of moderate voters read) simply used it as a stick to beat the Brown government and have repeated it ever since - I am sure my MP used it in either 2015 or 2017.

It hardly helps that Maudling has been firmly placed in the dustbin of history following his disgrace - and 46 years is more than half a lifetime.
 

takno

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Perhaps, but this was a subtlety that was hardly going to get a mention anywhere (except perhaps The Guardian). The usual suspects (which a large number of moderate voters read) simply used it as a stick to beat the Brown government and have repeated it ever since - I am sure my MP used it in either 2015 or 2017.

It hardly helps that Maudling has been firmly placed in the dustbin of history following his disgrace - and 46 years is more than half a lifetime.
It's something Liam Byrne is on record as being hugely regretful of, but at the end of the day it was just part of rich narrative of nonsense that Cameron and Osborne were so success at stitching together about the last Labour government. The ridiculous tale about selling off the gold had even less root in reality but they put out through friendly (and unfriendly) media outlets until it was accepted as a fact. For that matter the whole austerity pitch was just some vaguely credible-sounding dribble with no base in economics or finance.

What the Tory party seem to have lost from the 2010 era is any ability to package these narratives together and turn them into something that candidates can push and media outlets will buy. I didn't like much of anything about the coalition era, but compared to any of the candidates standing now they were just streets ahead at basic politics
 

Mag_seven

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It was interesting hearing all these Tory leadership candidates yesterday saying what they will or will not do as if we had a say in their election. :rolleyes:
 

433N

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It was interesting hearing all these Tory leadership candidates yesterday saying what they will or will not do as if we had a say in their election. :rolleyes:

Remember, this is democracy not like how Juncker and Tusk 'are not democratically elected'.
 

TrainBoy98

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Honestly, I think maybe Rory Stewart is what we need (if he gets to final two - a VERY big if - he'll be getting my vote).
However, he seems more like a "peacetime" (ie, non-Brexit) PM. He seems like he would have a fair amount of Cross-Party Appeal, If it's not all talk of course, that would work even for a minority Tory government, but he's campaigning to the people as if it's a General Election, which is sadly the wrong way to go.

Sort of the person we'd like in '22, not nesecarily the person to get us through Brexit (which, as we've seen with May, will likely dominate their premiership and end their career which ever way it goes).
 

AlterEgo

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Honestly, I think maybe Rory Stewart is what we need (if he gets to final two - a VERY big if - he'll be getting my vote).
However, he seems more like a "peacetime" (ie, non-Brexit) PM. He seems like he would have a fair amount of Cross-Party Appeal, If it's not all talk of course, that would work even for a minority Tory government, but he's campaigning to the people as if it's a General Election, which is sadly the wrong way to go.

Sort of the person we'd like in '22, not nesecarily the person to get us through Brexit (which, as we've seen with May, will likely dominate their premiership and end their career which ever way it goes).

Stewart is so exceptionally sensible and reasonable I don’t think the neurotic and insane membership of the party will ever vote for him as leader.
 

edwin_m

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Stewart is so exceptionally sensible and reasonable I don’t think the neurotic and insane membership of the party will ever vote for him as leader.
That may be so compared to the rest of the field, but I don't think I'd agree if the yardstick was any normal one of sense and reasonableness.
 

TrainBoy98

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His voting record in the Commons is comparable to Johnson and McVey.
His soft words and look of compassion are betrayed by that voting record.

I'm not necessarily defending his record - unless your name is Corbyn the usual rule of thumb for party politics is that you vote with your party. To get where he wants to get (PM) I'm not sure a history of voting against the Tories is what the Tories would want...
 

greyman42

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It was interesting hearing all these Tory leadership candidates yesterday saying what they will or will not do as if we had a say in their election. :rolleyes:
Perhaps they were speaking to the party membership who do have a say in their election.
 

edwin_m

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I'm not necessarily defending his record - unless your name is Corbyn the usual rule of thumb for party politics is that you vote with your party. To get where he wants to get (PM) I'm not sure a history of voting against the Tories is what the Tories would want...
If I believe what I read, that's what a majority of the people who will elect the new Tory leader did last month.
 

mmh

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Remember, this is democracy not like how Juncker and Tusk 'are not democratically elected'.

I don't understand the hoo-hah over this. A party is changing its leader according to their rules. What do people expect them to do after their leader resigns?
 

Darandio

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I don't understand the hoo-hah over this. A party is changing its leader according to their rules. What do people expect them to do after their leader resigns?

When it's the leader of an opposing party resigning, then fine, let them argue between themselves and appoint whoever they wish. When it's someone who will immediately be elevated to the role of Prime Minister, ideally the people should decide. But we know how unworkable that is.
 

takno

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I don't understand the hoo-hah over this. A party is changing its leader according to their rules. What do people expect them to do after their leader resigns?
I'm not sure anybody's massive angry about it, but there are two reasons for pointing it out. The first is that it demonstrates that our national leader is in no way directly elected, which challenges various claims that Europe is somehow less democratic. The second is that Boris in particular is on record puffing out a bunch of his trademark faux outrage when Gordon Brown did exactly the same thing, and nobody much cares for a hypocrite
 

fowler9

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I'm not sure anybody's massive angry about it, but there are two reasons for pointing it out. The first is that it demonstrates that our national leader is in no way directly elected, which challenges various claims that Europe is somehow less democratic. The second is that Boris in particular is on record puffing out a bunch of his trademark faux outrage when Gordon Brown did exactly the same thing, and nobody much cares for a hypocrite
Yeah, read about this recently. I'm sure if Boris gets the job he will insist on a general election. Ha ha.
 
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