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things the rail industry do to intentionally set passengers up for buying a new ticke

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GadgetMan

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You'd also then get exactly the same people moaning along the lines of......

"I went online and saw 2 tickets priced at a bargain £4 each. But the stupid railway insists they want me to enter our railcard ref numbers. Well my wife had gone out shopping, her railcard is in her purse permanently to ensure its never forgotten on a journey, by the time she got back the price had doubled.

What's wrong with letting us put the discount on the ticket, and then letting revenue staff on the day check we have our railcards.

The railways incompetence and laziness to inspect railcards on the train has just cost me money"

Whatever the railway does, it'll always be wrong!
 
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trainophile

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Just out of interest, if I should ever be careless enough to forget or lose my Senior Railcard, and was on my regular journey Hereford to Southport, would I be allowed to buy a full price ticket to Chester (£26.90), from where I can get a Merseyrail Saveaway for £4.60 to complete my journey, totalling £31.50, or would I have to pay the full £50.20 Anytime fare to Southport, as that's the destination on my ticket?
 

DaveNewcastle

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If you were unable to produce the Railcard on request, then your ticket to Southport would be void. With a void ticket, its printed destination may 'suggest' that your intended journey was to Southport, but as you would effectively be travelling without a valid ticket, then what else is printed on it is immaterial. You would be quite entitled to seek whatever new ticket you want for whatever journey you want; in your example, that could be to Chester.
How you travelled onwards from there would be a separate contract.
 

island

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Just out of interest, if I should ever be careless enough to forget or lose my Senior Railcard, and was on my regular journey Hereford to Southport, would I be allowed to buy a full price ticket to Chester (£26.90), from where I can get a Merseyrail Saveaway for £4.60 to complete my journey, totalling £31.50, or would I have to pay the full £50.20 Anytime fare to Southport, as that's the destination on my ticket?

You are allowed to buy an anytime fare to the next stop and get off to purchase a new ticket at whatever price. If you want to continue on the same train you need to buy an anytime ticket all the way.
 

trainophile

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You are allowed to buy an anytime fare to the next stop and get off to purchase a new ticket at whatever price. If you want to continue on the same train you need to buy an anytime ticket all the way.

Given that my itinerary says I change not only trains but TOCs at Chester anyway, I think I'd go with what DaveNewcastle suggests!

Thanks both.
 

island

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Given that my itinerary says I change not only trains but TOCs at Chester anyway, I think I'd go with what DaveNewcastle suggests!

Thanks both.

Fair enough. I have next to no knowledge of geography of the north.
 

exile

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The common sense approach is for the passenger to be asked to pay the full price and then claim the discount later on producing the railcard at a staffed station.

Again this has been turned into a bash-the-idiotic/fraudulent-passenger thread. Admittedly the thread title was rather asking for that.....
 

island

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The common sense approach is for the passenger to be asked to pay the full price and then claim the discount later on producing the railcard at a staffed station.

As has been pointed out quite a few times here, that removes any incentive for people to buy a Railcard and allows people to try it on by buying a discounted ticket and paying the excess only when challenged, or sharing non-photo Railcards.
 

34D

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People do forget! If I go to Tesco, get to till and say "sorry I forgot my wallet but here is my credit card number(but I forgot to bring it,)" Tesco will say " leave the goods here and close the door behind you". If I forget my Senior Bus Pass do I get to ride for free? No.

Tesco's can accept CNP (cardholder not present) transactions. Personally I'd expect that they would do something.

Re your second point, I've been driving buses where a passenger has forgotten their ENCTS pass, and have used my discretion. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
 

jon0844

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I think we should just leave things as they are now (which is almost certainly what is going to happen) until such time that we get smartcards in operation.. either to hold tickets or make payments.

Either way, once you have your very own smartcard that can be suspended/replaced, tied to an individual (and the web/smartphone app allowing you to view tickets held on it, make changes etc) then you can begin to allow automatic discounting of fares if you've got a railcard attached to your account and other discounts applied for regular usage, special promotions and so on.

Until then the rather ageing system works, even with the odd fault. We've discussed many ideas on here and I've suggested lots of things, but I doubt there's any incentive to change things and ATOC is - hopefully - thinking of the future and will address some or all of these things.

Honest users will likely find it easier to scan their ticket/card at different stations along a route, or even on the trains themselves, which can address a load of things - or even apply discounts/surcharges automatically. People can then have the option to upgrade a ticket to, say, travel on a different train or upgrade to FC without having to queue up, or run the risk of being stung on the train. Those people who don't do things properly will have absolutely no excuse, thus giving the railway an incentive to enforce things but being able to concentrate on bigger fish.

There are certainly some cases where ticketing can confuse even the best of us, so I'd hope that we implement new technology sooner rather than later but there will be a very large cost to get it done - and there will also be loads of issues as inevitably such a big change will end up with winners and losers. I do, however, think it needs to be done and in the long run we'll all benefit.
 

island

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Tesco's can accept CNP (cardholder not present) transactions. Personally I'd expect that they would do something.

At the risk of going OT, the clue is in the name; CNP transactions are for when the cardholder isn't present, not the card. It's a gross violation of a merchant agreement to process a transaction as CNP when the cardholder's there. Not least because that could be anybody's number they're reciting.
 

jon0844

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Yes, the potential for fraud is massive and there's often a much stricter authorisation process for when the cardholder isn't present. Indeed, there may well be a tougher clawback process too (although, Tesco may well be immune to certain types of fraud on account of their overall power as a merchant).

It's a totally different scenario to that of someone without a card with them.
 

Bellwater

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Again this has been turned into a bash-the-idiotic/fraudulent-passenger thread. Admittedly the thread title was rather asking for that.....

Or could be described as '16-25 Railcard Holder gets charged for having no railcard and much handwringing'

Interestingly, a lot of Senior and Disabled Railcard holders are willing to pay but its not the case of Forces and 16-25 Railcard holders, from what I've seen.



 

Flamingo

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Can I just ask one question? When did Tesco's start running a TOC?

(p.s. the rest of the concept which this thread is based on is paranoid to the point that I am seriously expecting somebody to suggest that tin-foil hats need to be issued to stop the TOC's reading the brainwaves of their passengers...)
 

185

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Megatrain.com,
- and Virgin Trains, East Midlands Trains and South West Trains

...are the real villains in this thread. Reading through their 'additional' terms and conditions which sit on top of the (fairly reasonable) ATOC Conditions, I found pages upon pages of what I would describe as trap clauses...

'ticket invalid & charge for new full price one if customer breaks journey'
'ticket invalid & charge for new full price one if customer turns up with a bicycle'
'three items of luggage' etc

These three train companies, behaving like Ryanair is disgusting. The ATOC Ncoc are the only ticket restrictions that should be in place for all UK rail tickets.
 

Flamingo

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Megatrain.com,
- and Virgin Trains, East Midlands Trains and South West Trains

...are the real villains in this thread. Reading through their 'additional' terms and conditions which sit on top of the (fairly reasonable) ATOC Conditions, I found pages upon pages of what I would describe as trap clauses.

'ticket invalid & charge for new full price one if customer breaks journey'
'ticket invalid & charge for new full price one if customer turns up with a bicycle' etc

These three train companies, behaving like Ryanair is disgusting.
Nobody is forced to buy the cheaper Megatrain tickets, if they don't like the T&C they could buy the "ordinary" tickets and just be bound by the NRCoC relating to that ticket.

Why is it disgusting to sell cheaper tickets with increased T&C? If passengers think they will be able to stick by those T&C then they benefit
from cheaper tickets. If they don't, they shouldn't buy them, and then say it's unfair.
 

185

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If unreasonable, t&cs for any product or service should be challenged. I was flabbergasted when I read through the Megabus/Megatrain conditions.

This is a worrying first precedent - imagine if it spread. Ryanair type cabin baggage size boxes at train doors?!? err.... well, I'll get the tickets while you do the luggage eh? ;)
 

Failed Unit

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If unreasonable, t&cs for any product or service should be challenged. I was flabbergasted when I read through the Megabus/Megatrain conditions.

This is a worrying first precedent - imagine if it spread. Ryanair type cabin baggage size boxes at train doors?!? err.... well, I'll get the tickets while you do the luggage eh? ;)

I have never used a mega-train ticket, but I would hope the cycle restriction is clear? I don't mind extra restrictions on anything I purchase as long as ones that people may require are not hidden on page 3 of 7 pages of conditions.

The maga-train is really a more restrictive advance purchase ticket, so to me the T&Cs should highlight the main differences such as no bikes as quickly as possible. (They may do so). If mega train decided to add only on piece of baggage or a new ticket this should also be clear.

Not many passengers take bikes on trains to be honest and most of the megatrain routes require reservations so it may be a non-issue.
 

swt_passenger

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Reading through their 'additional' terms and conditions which sit on top of the (fairly reasonable) ATOC Conditions, I found pages upon pages of what I would describe as trap clauses...

'three items of luggage' etc

3 items of luggage is a standard National Rail Condition. See Annex B for details.

It isn't specific to Megatrain.
 

Ticket Man

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Megatrain.com,
.

'ticket invalid & charge for new full price one if customer breaks journey'
'ticket invalid & charge for new full price one if customer turns up with a bicycle'
'three items of luggage' etc

didn't know about that one, and certainly have never seen it enforced.
 

CaptainHaddock

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Megatrain.com,
- and Virgin Trains, East Midlands Trains and South West Trains

...are the real villains in this thread. Reading through their 'additional' terms and conditions which sit on top of the (fairly reasonable) ATOC Conditions, I found pages upon pages of what I would describe as trap clauses...

'ticket invalid & charge for new full price one if customer breaks journey'
'ticket invalid & charge for new full price one if customer turns up with a bicycle'
.

That cycle one is absurd and must surely contradict the NRCoC? As I understand it, anyone holding a valid train ticket is able to reserve a cycle space on that train, subject to availability. The ticket type is irrelevant.

When Megatrain used to do the £1 tickets from Sheffield to Peterborough and Norwich, I regularly travelled on one of their tickets with a bike (reserved separately) and was never queried.
 

Brucey

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That cycle one is absurd and must surely contradict the NRCoC? As I understand it, anyone holding a valid train ticket is able to reserve a cycle space on that train, subject to availability. The ticket type is irrelevant.

The Megtrain conditions claim to amend the NRCoC, so they effectively over-rule what the NRCoC say.
 

hairyhandedfool

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That cycle one is absurd and must surely contradict the NRCoC? As I understand it, anyone holding a valid train ticket is able to reserve a cycle space on that train, subject to availability. The ticket type is irrelevant....

I would suggest that 'reserving a bicycle space' and 'turning up with a bicycle' are not the same thing.
 

ainsworth74

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The Megtrain conditions claim to amend the NRCoC, so they effectively over-rule what the NRCoC say.

I'm fairly sure that they're not allowed to do that as TOCs can only give you more rights than the NRCoC provide not less. The only places where that doesn't apply are in a few specific conditions where it is mentioned that TOCs can restrict your rights in regard to the specific condition. By my reading of the NRCoC the carriage of cycles is not one of the areas where they're allowed to do this.
 

Failed Unit

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That cycle one is absurd and must surely contradict the NRCoC? As I understand it, anyone holding a valid train ticket is able to reserve a cycle space on that train, subject to availability.

Do the conditions of carriage really say that? There are many restrictions on train services for bikes (not really on IC services which megatrain use to be fair) but there are many trains in the UK that won't take bikes in the peak.
 

swt_passenger

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I'm fairly sure that they're not allowed to do that as TOCs can only give you more rights than the NRCoC provide not less. The only places where that doesn't apply are in a few specific conditions where it is mentioned that TOCs can restrict your rights in regard to the specific condition. By my reading of the NRCoC the carriage of cycles is not one of the areas where they're allowed to do this.

According to NR Cof C, cycle restrictions are just:

"Subject to individual Train Company charges and restrictions."

So I reckon they are not actually specified, so you cannot claim any generic rights to take a bike?

I'd also highlight that luggage restrictions on Megatrain are as per the NR CofC, as I pointed out earlier, but Megabusplus (the coach/train hybrid) is different again.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Do the conditions of carriage really say that? There are many restrictions on train services for bikes (not really on IC services which megatrain use to be fair) but there are many trains in the UK that won't take bikes in the peak.

The NRCoC says.....

"48. Cycles

Except for a few routes, the Train Companies allow cycles to be conveyed by train.
However, restrictions may apply at particular times of day and/or days of the week. Any
restrictions will be set out in the notices and publications of each Train Company. A charge
may be made for conveying a cycle and a reservation may be required. "
 

Brucey

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In any case, is that actually any requirement for a TOC to always issue tickets that are subject to the NRCoC? Could a TOC not create their own Conditions of Carriage if they so wished?
 
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