This is what gets the current rail system a bad name

[spyinthesky]

I just pulled into Seamer from Bridlington running around 5 mins late. The York train was in platform, and the guard of the York train closed the doors just as two passengers were trying to board from our train. Would it have hurt to delay for 30 seconds? Passengers now face a 1 hour wait on a platform with no facilities.

Edit having got some more time:

BTW for those that don't know it Seamer is a single narrow island platform with just a couple of shelters, and its less than 10 steps from carriage door to carriage door. Guard on the York train was aware of what was happening, I was watching him, and potential passengers were 10yds or less away from him and were obviously hoping to board, if he couldn't see them then he should be registered blind. He just totally ignored them and closed the doors. Seemed to me like he just didn't care. My mother always told me don't care will be made to care but in this case I don't hold out much hope.

I experienced this very same problem during an ALR. I ended up using a bus this was 10 years ago. Somethings never change

 

[seagull]

It is accurate, though.

Labelling rail staff as apologists is not (always) accurate and could also be seen as somewhat insulting, when many of them are simply trying to offer insight and explanations into processes unknown to those outside the industry.

 

[Ken H]

There are a lot of assumptions in that statement . Firstly that the guard who can see the train approaching knows it's going to be stopped in the platform within seconds of their departure . Also that the guard even knows that it is a connection , this sort of information isn't regularly delivered as part of route learning it's something learned through experience .

I don't agree , I think this is one of the things that sometimes puts colleagues off explaining things .


The problem is that while some staff are more astute and aware of this , nor is it part of the competence to be aware or know how to find this information .

They should not have to find out. All the information they need to manage the train should be delivered to them electronically. To a tablet or to their ticket machine. And control should have seen the train from Brid was a bit late and authorised him, again electronically, to wait up to 4 mins.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

I’m late to this chain, but it happened to me at Weybridge last year. No abundance of sympathy from the commentariat on here, and none from SWR either. Though a do remember a driver on that thread being a great deal more sympathetic. Sense can be applied but only by the sensible. The sense at 0800 on the Underground at Finchley Road is get the train out of the platform, there’s another one a minute away. Sense at Seamer is wait 20 seconds.

 

[Fokx]

They should not have to find out. All the information they need to manage the train should be delivered to them electronically. To a tablet or to their ticket machine. And control should have seen the train from Brid was a bit late and authorised him, again electronically, to wait up to 4 mins.

I agree here but that’s absolutely not what happens in reality though.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Undoubtedly the TPE train at Seamer station wasn't going anywhere until the Northern train from Bridlington had come off the 'branch' line, as the signals would have been set against it.

Seamer West junction, where the Bridlington->Scarborough 'branch' line joins the York->Scarborough 'main' line, is only a third of a mile on from Seamer station, so anyone there would have a rather clear view of the Northern train crossing the points and moving towards them, having come off the Bridlington line, and the signal for the Malton/York 'main' line would probably only then clear just as the Northern unit was coming into Seamer station.

 

[Phil56]

A few years ago, I was at Preston station. There was a voyager at the platform. A pendolino arrived on the adjacent platform which had been running late. A whole crowd of passengers ran out of the Peno towards the Voyager but the guard closed the doors literally right in front of them. The Voyager then set off, only to be held at the next red light just outside the station, to allow the late running Pendolino to get ahead. So no time saved for the Voyager and absolutely no reason why it couldn't have waited at the platform another minute or so to let the passengers on. There were a lot of angry passengers on that platform as they stood looking at it stationery just outside the station!

 

[arb]

I was once a replacement bus for the first half of a journey, planned to connect into a regular train for the rest of the journey. The bus was a few minutes late, so the connection became tight. There was a line of people walking from the bus to the train, those at the front had got on the train, those at the back hadn't yet reached it, but the staff just despatched the train bang on time without any warning or attempt to hurry people up (but were very good at shouting "step back from the train" after they'd started the despatch). I would have argued that if nobody was going to make the connection, it would have been fine to despatch on time, but letting some people make it and some not was just bloody-minded.

Some people tried to discuss this (amicably, not shouting/yelling) with the staff involved afterwards, and were met with some frankly awful responses that included "do you know how much our company gets fined if we despatch late?", "feel free to complain about me on twitter if you want, I'm doing my job properly so nothing will happen" (both of which might be true but aren't exactly going to win awards for customer service) and "I didn't know the bus had just arrived" (even though you could see the car park from the platform).

And we wonder why people run towards closing doors, hold the doors for others, etc...

 

[yorkie]

Labelling rail staff as apologists is not (always) accurate and could also be seen as somewhat insulting, when many of them are simply trying to offer insight and explanations into processes unknown to those outside the industry.

I am not "Labelling rail staff as apologists"; I suggest you re-read what has been said. (If you see something you believe to be insulting, please do not reply to it; instead use the report button).

An apologist a person who offers an argument in defence of something unpopular; in this case the unpopular view is to say things that give the impression it was right that the train should not have waited for connecting passengers and to suggest that trains should not wait in the circumstances described.

It is not a case of "labelling rail staff" many of whom would agree with the majority on this thread, that the connection should have been held.

I was once a replacement bus for the first half of a journey, planned to connect into a regular train for the rest of the journey. The bus was a few minutes late, so the connection became tight. There was a line of people walking from the bus to the train, those at the front had got on the train, those at the back hadn't yet reached it, but the staff just despatched the train bang on time without any warning or attempt to hurry people up (but were very good at shouting "step back from the train" after they'd started the despatch). I would have argued that if nobody was going to make the connection, it would have been fine to despatch on time, but letting some people make it and some not was just bloody-minded.

Some people tried to discuss this (amicably, not shouting/yelling) with the staff involved afterwards, and were met with some frankly awful responses that included "do you know how much our company gets fined if we despatch late?", "feel free to complain about me on twitter if you want, I'm doing my job properly so nothing will happen" (both of which might be true but aren't exactly going to win awards for customer service) and "I didn't know the bus had just arrived" (even though you could see the car park from the platform).

And we wonder why people run towards closing doors, hold the doors for others, etc...

Completely unacceptable behaviour, in my opinion. I'd pretty much rule this out happening in many other countries I've visited but you can't rule out anything like that on the National Rail network sadly.

 

[800001]

They should not have to find out. All the information they need to manage the train should be delivered to them electronically. To a tablet or to their ticket machine. And control should have seen the train from Brid was a bit late and authorised him, again electronically, to wait up to 4 mins.

So you expect control to notice the Brid train was late?
Do you think someone is literally sat staring at how that one train is running? And how that late running is going to affect a connection on one station on its journey?

 

[Western Sunset]

I think there is a contradiction between network performance and individual train performance that will never be resolved, even if we wanted it to.

It's self-evident that if every guard/train manager did their own thing as regards waiting for passengers, the whole timetable would collapse with knock-on effects elsewhere. But closing train doors in the face of customers can't be right either.

I don't think there's a solution, to be honest. By its very nature, a railway is subject to many, many factors outside its control. But some of these can be better mitigated; more reliable stock, robust timetabling, improved trackside management, staff attitude etc.

In a system like a railway, change has to come from the top with the organisation's attitude to customers. Someone wrote above that the railways worked better without many passengers around. Maybe, but if this nation really wants to change the mindset of citizens into using the railways more, not least for environmental issues, there needs to be a change in the mindset at the top too.

 

[Ken H]

So you expect control to notice the Brid train was late?
Do you think someone is literally sat staring at how that one train is running? And how that late running is going to affect a connection on one station on its journey?

Dont they have conputers? doesnt the train describers alert them to late running?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So you expect control to notice the Brid train was late?
Do you think someone is literally sat staring at how that one train is running? And how that late running is going to affect a connection on one station on its journey?

I'd expect the onboard TPE staff to have been quite aware that the Northern train from Bridlington was slightly late, as the signals would have been set against them. Not much ever comes off the Bridlington line than the hourly Northern stopper. Does seem to me that the onboard TPE staff were wanting their train to be away just as soon as possible after the signals had cleared.

The TPE train in question was effectively a self-contained shuttle between Scarborough and York, and likely that a couple of minutes delay departing from Seamer would not have resulted in any delay arriving at York.

 

[800001]

I'd expect the onboard TPE staff to have been quite aware that the Northern train from Bridlington was slightly late, as the signals would have been set against them. Not much ever comes off the Bridlington line than the hourly Northern stopper. Does seem to me that the onboard TPE staff were wanting their train to be away just as soon as possible after the signals had cleared.

That wasn’t what I asked, I asked about control staff, not the TPE onboard staff!!

 

[Fokx]

Does seem to me that the onboard TPE staff were wanting their train to be away just as soon as possible after the signals had cleared.

It comes from the top down rather than the onboard staff. It isn’t fair to accuse the situation on the guard at all when it’s the company policy to close up to 30 seconds before and depart on time where possible.

With the new NRC it’s the DfT who operate Northern and TPE and are the ones wanting the train to leave on time, wether it has all passengers on or not, all to meet T-3 figures at all stations and therefore give the shareholders their profit

 

[Western Sunset]

So you expect control to notice the Brid train was late?
Do you think someone is literally sat staring at how that one train is running? And how that late running is going to affect a connection on one station on its journey?

I'd like to think that "control" knew where trains were on the network...

 

[Fokx]

I'd like to think that "control" knew where trains were on the network...

The first question you’ll be asked from a call from control is “and where are you currently on the network?”

 

[43066]

Whilst I agree with this, and certainly do not advocate waiting for people who have turned up late for their train, there does need to be some application of thought given to connections IMO.

In this case, looking at the schedules, the TPE had one minute of engineering allowance and two minutes of performance allowance approaching York, and no other obvious conflicts on the journey from Seamer to York. In this case I’d find it hard to justify not holding the train for the extra few seconds. In the current climate the railway is going to have to place some emphasis on quality.

The trouble is there has to be a blanket policy adopted, and intricate knowledge of pathing allowances etc. which will vary by individual service simply isn’t going to be available to staff on the ground (not would it be feasible to provide it).

I’d like to know what people are actually proposing here. A rule of “trains must wait five minutes for connections” would cause chaos and delays to far more people overall. Said held trains will often then miss their paths, end up 15 minutes late, and so on. As someone else said, where does it end? In the OP’s case, if the train into Seamer had been running six minutes late, we’d be having exactly the same discussion.

From a quality point of view priority really does need to be given to running as many trains on time as possible, even if a few connections have to be sacrificed along the way for “the greater good”. Obviously it’s unfortunate if delays are as long as an hour but the majority will be less than this - and striving to run all trains punctually is the best way to minimise the number of missed connections overall.

The Swiss comparisons aren’t particularly valid as their system is much less intensive and crowded than ours. On a related note it’s interesting to reflect that sadly British passengers aren’t like Swiss passengers, either, and passenger action is a big part of why there are so many delays on our network. The true extent of this was highlighted during the lockdowns when virtually everything ran dead on time!

 

[Scott1]

I am not "Labelling rail staff as apologists"; I suggest you re-read what has been said. (If you see something you believe to be insulting, please do not reply to it; instead use the report button).

An apologist a person who offers an argument in defence of something unpopular; in this case the unpopular view is to say things that give the impression it was right that the train should not have waited for connecting passengers and to suggest that trains should not wait in the circumstances described.

In fairness I felt you labeled me an apologist, and it puts me off voicing my opinion because it feels devalued. Attaching a label, such as calling me an apologist, is not necessary and as I said, I'm not saying if I agree or disagree with the OP, I'm simply trying to showboth sides of it based on my experience.

 

[dk1]

At Ely yesterday I was working a Norwich to Cambridge service & I could see in my cameras a late running Liverpool-Norwich service arriving beside me in platform 3. It was however time for me to depart as nobody had told me otherwise. As I left at least a dozen passengers came scurrying across. If it was up to me I would’ve waited as know what it’s like but unfortunately it isn’t. Without good reason I have to go to time.

 

[800001]

I'd like to think that "control" knew where trains were on the network...

They will know where the last reported location of trains are.
But that does not mean that control would be sat watching that one specific train approaching seamer, and know what time the TPE is calling there.
So again, can not see what relevance your comment has.
How many trains do you think a TPE or Northern controller is managing at any one time?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It comes from the top down rather than the onboard staff. It isn’t fair to accuse the situation on the guard at all when it’s the company policy to close up to 30 seconds before and depart on time where possible.

Which of course is the nub of the problem. The imperative to meet punctuality targets outweighing any notion of passenger convenience (because not meeting punctuality targets can be an attributable cost for the ToC). Hence the thread title.

As someone else said, where does it end? In the OP’s case, if the train into Seamer had been running six minutes late, we’d be having exactly the same discussion.

Not sure that would be the case. Had the Bridlington train been even a little later, I would imagine that the signals would then have been set against it when approaching Seamer West junction, allowing the TPE train to still depart more or less on time.

 

[yorkie]

In fairness I felt you labeled me an apologist, and it puts me off voicing my opinion because it feels devalued. Attaching a label, such as calling me an apologist, is not necessary and as I said, I'm not saying if I agree or disagree with the OP, I'm simply trying to showboth sides of it based on my experience.

I have not labelled anyone and I stand by what I said.

An apologist is someone who justifies something that goes against the unpopular opinion; in this case the popular opinion is that the connection should have been held.

Anyone who is not attempting to justify what happened is not an apologist and anyone who is justifying it, well they have the right to their opinions but those of us who see what damage this causes to the rail industry's reputation have the right to disagree accordingly.

 

[billio]

The York - Scarborough, Scarborough - Hull services need to be operated as single management unit where this type of issue can be properly addressed. The fact that two train operating companies are involved does not make sense, especially as one of those companies is quite happy to cancel trains with little warning and doesn't recognise services that pass through bottlenecks could accumulate serious delays.

 

[Grumpy Git]

On a related note it’s interesting to reflect that sadly British passengers aren’t like Swiss passengers, either, and passenger action is a big part of why there are so many delays on our network. The true extent of this was highlighted during the lockdowns when virtually everything ran dead on time!

Aye, it's definitely those pesky "customers".

 

[800001]

If the TPE had been held, by time doors had been reopened, and passengers allowed to board, it would of been over a minute.
That minute would potentially then cause customers already on the train to miss there connections at York.
The TPE already arrived 3/4 of a minute late into York, add another minute and customers could of missed connections to London and Edinburgh all for ‘it would of only taken 30seconds at seamer’.

 

[43066]

Not sure that would be the case. Had the Bridlington train been a little later, I would imagine that the signals would then have been set against it when approaching Seamer West junction, allowing the TPE train to still depart more or less on time.

I don’t know the exact situation at that location but the problem is there will be an infinite number of possible permutations all over the network, many tending the other way. A blanket policy has to be applied.

Signallers generally try to prevent on time trains from being made late by already delayed trains (again for the “greater good”), which goes against the policy being advocated for on here.

 

[Fokx]

Which of course is the nub of the problem. The imperative to meet punctuality targets outweighing any notion of passenger convenience. Hence the thread title.

Hopefully with GBR forming one solid company rather than a pyramid of companies the failures currently exposed will allow for more fluid connections for travellers, but until that day comes nothing will change.

I’m not even sure that the government want to operate trains in such a way, I’m still expecting GBR to operate as an umbrella company with a house of brands with all operations kept separate and Northern will continue to not contact or have any control over TPE services and vice versa

 

[yorkie]

At Ely yesterday I was working a Norwich to Cambridge service & I could see in my cameras a late running Liverpool-Norwich service arriving beside me in platform 3. It was however time for me to depart as nobody had told me otherwise. As I left at least a dozen passengers came scurrying across. If it was up to me I would’ve waited as know what it’s like but unfortunately it isn’t. Without good reason I have to go to time.

In this case, if you are following the correct procedure, the procedure needs to change, and urgently.

 

[pemma]

I just pulled into Seamer from Bridlington running around 5 mins late. The York train was in platform, and the guard of the York train closed the doors just as two passengers were trying to board from our train. Would it have hurt to delay for 30 seconds? Passengers now face a 1 hour wait on a platform with no facilities.

I experienced something similar in December meaning around 10 passengers had to wait for the next Avanti service due to a connecting Northern train being late. It seems the general attitude was that it's Northern's problem if they have to pay Delay Repay for their train being late.