This mornings Northern Revenue Op - Liverpool Echo

[Bletchleyite]

And why pay for one when you can sting people for £80 a time under a Penalty Fake scheme?

I see no justifiable reason why a station such as Broad Green does not have a TVM.

This is why I have issues with Penalty Fakes - it avoids all the safeguards of a proper statutory Penalty Fares system.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Or are they to provide high staff numbers for an hour or so

Instead of having the ticket inspectors at Lime Street doling out the Penalty Fakes, they could send a couple of them to Broad Green with an Advantix. Problem solved.

But Arriva make as much money from one Penalty Fake as they do from a Pacer carriage full of people paying the correct fare. So guess what they do instead.

The standard queue time for the statutory Penalty Fare scheme is five minutes in the peak, and three minutes off-peak. Unless the single ticket clerk can issue a ticket every 30 seconds, which I seriously doubt, I'd say Arriva are nowhere near it in this case.

 

[221129]

Instead of having the ticket inspectors at Lime Street doling out the Penalty Fakes, they could send a couple of them to Broad Green with an Advantix. Problem solved.

But Abellio make as much money from one Penalty Fake as they do from a Pacer carriage full of people paying the correct fare. So guess what they do instead.

What have Abellio got to do with anything?

 

[Tetchytyke]

What have Abellio got to do with anything?

They started the whole show off.

But yes, that's a typo for Arriva

 

[jacksonbang]

I see no justifiable reason why a station such as Broad Green does not have a TVM.

Absolutely. How can this company suggest customers use new technology when they cannot even be bothered to use proven older technology. What a joke.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It seems old Northern remains - that'll be Alex Hynes' fault, then.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I'm afraid that the simple solution you suggest is not really a viable solution due to the complexity of the fares system. Even a single to the local big city will have many variations - the child option is actually a small number of sales compared to various railcards, combinations of numbers, and variations of destination (in Liverpool, the final destination is likely to include quite a bit of variation of onward connections to major employment areas) so that a city centre destination might not take too much pressure from other sales points.

And it's worth bearing in mind that your are effectively proposing a 2 TVM solution that offers no benefit to the TOC other than one machine selling less than the other. Why pay for two when one can do the same job?

As for this thread, and the outrage bus's cause célèbre, I would take the suggestion of "a queue of about 10 people" with a very large pinch of salt. We often read on this forum of 'long queues' and people caught out are likely to use that sort of thing in their defence whether it is true or not. We know nothing of the actual numbers queuing or how fast they were getting served, or how much time Peter Rooke had allowed for buying a ticket ("He did not have time to queue"). It's worth noting that he was worried about making a connection but was going to buy a ticket in Liverpool - is service in Liverpool that fast that he would have endangered his connection by doing so? This was at a station with trains every 10-15 minutes, so perhaps he should have left a touch earlier to make sure he wasn't going to be late for work. And if this was a regular journey (to work, so likely to be) why not have a season ticket of some sort. Perhaps the opportunity to save money was too great. Too many questions and not enough answers, and yet we rely on a newspaper report as being the gospel truth.

I disagree. I would be prepared to bet that the majority of tickets sold at my local station are to/from Manchester or Crewe.

One poster says they pre-print 50 tickets in preparation for the rush.

There could be a lot of use for a simple TVM that dispenses simple tickets at a fast pace. Cheap to build, cheap to install, cheaper than extra staff at peak times.

Allow the tickets to double as a Permit to Travel and it could be a winner.

 

[neilmc]

Come on guys, be real - we all know this is a scam perpetrated by Northern who provide a completely inadequate service at ticket offices/TVMs because a few £80 stings cover the cost of a hell of a lot of tickets and they have no incentive to improve. And everybody who reads a newspaper or has to suffer as a customer KNOWS it too, the only people who dispute this are the rail industry staff and their apologists on this site.

 

[sheff1]

Well, we were informed over 24 hours ago that Mr Rooke could have either got to the station earlier or used a TVM because "It's not as if it isn't clear".

However, there has been no response to my query as to how much earlier he should have got to the station or which TVM he could have used (bearing in mind there are none at Broad Green). So it is still not clear to me, but I continue to look forward hopefully to getting the answers.

 

[Starmill]

It seems old Northern remains - that'll be Alex Hynes' fault, then.

One could put it like that.

 

[johntea]

Using the App is not possible close to the departure of a train - there needs to be time for the app to "deliver" the ticket. I've tried to buy just before I boarded to avoid a queue at Piccadilly, just in case the guard didn't make it down the train or was not selling tickets (40-50% of cases)

Don't know when you last tried that but I've recently used the Trainline app on my phone to purchase a ticket (no fee for doing a 'same day as travel' purchase it seems, I wouldn't use the app in other circumstances as it puts on a 25p odd fee!)

Anyway I'm doing this at Leeds station, where a little known fact is just by the ticket barriers INSIDE the platform area there is a TVM but it is for ticket collection so when I've been unable to purchase a ticket en route I've simply done the ticket through the app and collected it SECONDS later, I know in the past it could take a while to filter through but it certainly seems more instant these days

 

[johnmoly]

I use Edge Hill station quite a lot and half the time there is nobody in the ticket office, but as has been said there is normally a facility for buying a ticket at Lime Street before going through the ticket barrier.

 

[Phil.]

This is not acceptable. If there are 10 people in the que at the booking office then clearly there are not enough facilities at the station. Shame on Northern. The customer turned up at the station with the intent to buy a ticket but the company prevented him from doing so as they were unable to serve him within the time stated in their passengers charter. It is simply not acceptable to merely state the customer should have got there sooner. That does nothing to be honest and accept the customer was let down and fails to address the core issue.

Ooh, you mustn't say or suggest things like that on here. You'll have the bye-law 19 types having conniptions over daring to suggest that it's not acceptable to simply turn up six to seven minutes before a train is due to buy a simple ticket.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Don't know when you last tried that but I've recently used the Trainline app on my phone to purchase a ticket (no fee for doing a 'same day as travel' purchase it seems, I wouldn't use the app in other circumstances as it puts on a 25p odd fee!)

Anyway I'm doing this at Leeds station, where a little known fact is just by the ticket barriers INSIDE the platform area there is a TVM but it is for ticket collection so when I've been unable to purchase a ticket en route I've simply done the ticket through the app and collected it SECONDS later, I know in the past it could take a while to filter through but it certainly seems more instant these days

This is NR App - that should issue a mobile ticket. Tickets for collection not much use if there's no machine at the station.....

 

[najaB]

Ooh, you mustn't say or suggest things like that on here. You'll have the bye-law 19 types having conniptions over daring to suggest that it's not acceptable to simply turn up six to seven minutes before a train is due to buy a simple ticket.

Just to point out again, the article doesn't make any mention of actually waiting. The passenger is quoted as saying that he saw the queue and jumped on an earlier train which was running late.

And I think you mean Byelaw 18 as I can't see the relevance of traveling in the correct class of accommodation to this scenario.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Just to point out again, the article doesn't make any mention of actually waiting. The passenger is quoted as saying that he saw the queue and jumped on an earlier train which was running late.

Assuming the queue is reported accurately (and I know this is a big assumption), the waiting time to serve ten people would be at least ten minutes. And serving one person every 60 seconds is pretty impressive; I'd say you'd be more looking at a 12-15 minute wait. The industry standard for a Penalty Fares scheme is five minutes.

I can't understand why Alex Hynes, wearing both his Serco and his Arriva hats, doesn't want to have a proper Penalty Fares scheme either...

 

[broadgage]

In this case, the low fare due suggests a short or local journey. Should one really have to buy a smart phone, obtain a credit or debit card, and use an app to make a local rail journey ? Talk about making public transport less accessible and more complex to use !

And as for the suggestion that the customer should have arrived earlier, no one has stated just HOW early is expected.

The vast complexity of modern railway ticketing, and the apparent slowness of modern ticket issuing equipment are backward steps, it was not passengers who asked for greater complexity and slower machines, so why should we have to pay for it.

As others have posted, northern have a clear incentive to make it hard to buy a ticket, in order to maximise profits from the spot "fines" the imposition of which would be called extortion in any other business.

Drifting only a little a little O/T, the law has been recently changed to curtail some of the dodgy tactics of money lenders and vendors of goods on credit.
It would not surprise me if the rail industry is next.

 

[najaB]

Assuming the queue is reported accurately (and I know this is a big assumption), the waiting time to serve ten people would be at least ten minutes. And serving one person every 60 seconds is pretty impressive; I'd say you'd be more looking at a 12-15 minute wait. The industry standard for a Penalty Fares scheme is five minutes.

They really should invest in a 'Tickets to Liverpool' machine that takes contactless and chip and pin only. Have it spit out tickets on a different colour stock to make them obvious. Think of it as PERTIS on steroids.

 

[AlterEgo]

They really should invest in a 'Tickets to Liverpool' machine that takes contactless and chip and pin only. Have it spit out tickets on a different colour stock to make them obvious. Think of it as PERTIS on steroids.

This is probably one of the simplest and neatest ideas that's come out of the years-long discussion about Northern's ticket issuing, er...issues.

If I was working at Northern I'd be printing your post off and collaring Alex Hynes in the corridor with it.

 

[anme]

In this case, the low fare due suggests a short or local journey. Should one really have to buy a smart phone, obtain a credit or debit card, and use an app to make a local rail journey ? Talk about making public transport less accessible and more complex to use !

This is a good example of taking a false premise and getting angry about something entirely fictional.

No-one has suggested that only people with smart phones, apps and credit or debit cards should be allowed to travel by train. But given that many people - dare I say the majority - have such things, isn't it a good idea to let these people buy tickets on their smart phones if they wish to? It might even improve life for people who buy paper tickets too, by shortening the queues for the ticket office and the ticket machines!

 

[ryan125hst]

Northern certainly do have a problem with consistency as far as ticketing goes. I've bought a ticket from the ticket office at Retford, got on the train to Sheffield and then, on more than one occasion, seen the guard selling tickets onboard. There's also a TVM at Retford so there's no excuse. The issue is that people then think it's acceptable to buy onboard and will then complain when they travel elsewhere and end up in bother, or if RPI's turn up on that service and don't allow them to buy a ticket.

If guards were to stop issuing tickets and instead issue penalty fares when passengers buy tickets from stations with appropriate facilities, everyone would soon get the message. This would ideally be helped by an increase in ticket office hours and TVM's than accepted both cash and card at more stations so there's less of an excuse to buy onboard.

 

[Merseysider]

Talk about making public transport less accessible and more complex to use !

Doesn't look like it was particulary complex to board the Outrage Bus.

And as for the suggestion that the customer should have arrived earlier, no one has stated just HOW early is expected.

A little common sense goes a long way. 5 minutes is clearly a minimum, 10 in the peak to be safe.

As others have posted, northern (sic) have a clear incentive to make it hard to buy a ticket, in order to maximise profits from the spot "fines" the imposition of which would be called extortion in any other business.

This is incorrect. Extortion is something completely different. If a passenger makes the stupid decision to walk past an opportunity to purchase then they've broken the law. The £80 offer to settle (not a 'fine') is an opportunity for the offender to keep the matter out of court. There are issues here that Northern need to address but calling it 'extortion' displays a clear lack of understanding of the underlying mechanics of these settlements.

__________

Smartcards are the way forward in high-density urban areas. The Walrus card project should really be progressing at a faster pace - this is hoped to eventually be a PAYG solution in a similar vein to Oyster. Then all it takes to have a valid ticket for travel is a few seconds to take out the card and tap in.

Personally, I have no sympathy for Mr Rooke. If that's the last train that can get him to work on time then he needs to plan better. If he'd actually stood in the queue for 5-10 minutes I'd say he has a leg to stand on (morally, not legally).

But of course, anything to get his 15 minutes of fame in the local paper.

 

[LimeStSte]

What he fails to mention in the article is that he was offered to purchase a ticket once at lime street, twice, but after both opportunities he ignored that and tried to blag through the barriers.

 

[snail]

Using the App is not possible close to the departure of a train - there needs to be time for the app to "deliver" the ticket. I've tried to buy just before I boarded to avoid a queue at Piccadilly, just in case the guard didn't make it down the train or was not selling tickets (40-50% of cases)

Try a different app? I've used the TPE one while standing in front of a Virgin WC TVM. As soon as the confirmation email arrives I type in the code and the machine accepts it.

 

[najaB]

Try a different app? I've used the TPE one while standing in front of a Virgin WC TVM. As soon as the confirmation email arrives I type in the code and the machine accepts it.

That is different though to an app which contains m-tickets.

 

[gray1404]

What he fails to mention in the article is that he was offered to purchase a ticket once at lime street, twice, but after both opportunities he ignored that and tried to blag through the barriers.

How do you know?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm guessing he is station staff.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Merseysider]

How do you know?

The name is Bond Ste.

LimeStSte.

 

[Puffing Devil]

This is NR App - that should issue a mobile ticket. Tickets for collection not much use if there's no machine at the station.....

Try a different app? I've used the TPE one while standing in front of a Virgin WC TVM. As soon as the confirmation email arrives I type in the code and the machine accepts it.

As I said earlier in the thread - no point having a collection reference if there's no machine to collect it from.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If guards were to stop issuing tickets and instead issue penalty fares when passengers buy tickets from stations with appropriate facilities, everyone would soon get the message. This would ideally be helped by an increase in ticket office hours and TVM's than accepted both cash and card at more stations so there's less of an excuse to buy onboard.

Guards issuing PFs could be at risk of assault. But what I would do is the following.

1: Short term, any guard-sold ticket should be sold with a red ticket-shaped piece of card warning that "you got away with it this time, next time you might not".

2: Long term, Northern to move to a fully statutory Penalty Fares system with at least one TVM provided at every station, tickets not sold onboard at all, and a number of roving revenue gangs issuing statutory PFs.