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Thoughts on Compartments

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duffield

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You could say compartments have returned with the tiny 8 seat first class section in a refurbished 450. In a 4 car, with no through gangway, it would almost be like having your own compartment, but I have yet to see anyone in one on local services.

XC Class 170s 9-seat 1st class - I had a 'private compartment' journey from Nottingham to Birmingham yesterday with my Brother-in-law (at least until Tamworth when some rather loud XC staff joined us!) :E
 
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Mogz

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I would personally like to see a rolling stock manufacturer make even a prototype for a modern train with compartments. Seen as the Mk1 compartments had sliding doors to begin with, making a modern version with sliding doors on the outside instead of slam doors shouldn't be terribly difficult!

-Peter

There are modern rolling stock designs with compartment seating eg the DB ICE4 which has been introduced in the past few years in Germany has a few side corridor compartments in first and a few in second class that are specifically designated for families with children.

Compartments can still be found on most long distance trains on the continent in modern rolling stock.

I recently travelled on the Berlin-Warsaw express and nearly the entire train was made up of 3-a-side compartments in second class. The only coaches that were open were the restaurant car and the first class coach (2+1).

The train was modern, comfortable air conditioned stock. Each seat had charging points for phones and laptops, and a control panel so that the occupants could control the heating, lighting and even the volume of the tannoy in the compartment.

The food in the restaurant was great value too, as was the coffee off the trolly.

We do not have to look far to see that we could do so much better for long distance train travel in this country. Doubly so given most of our rolling stock is built or designed abroad.

It is frustrating to be told that such levels of service and comfort are unrealistic to expect in this country when they are so readily encountered at low prices on the continent and once existed here.

It’s not nostalgia- all this stuff is alive and well (and cheap) across the channel!
 

Peter C

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There are modern rolling stock designs with compartment seating eg the DB ICE4 which has been introduced in the past few years in Germany has a few side corridor compartments in first and a few in second class that are specifically designated for families with children.

Compartments can still be found on most long distance trains on the continent in modern rolling stock.

I recently travelled on the Berlin-Warsaw express and nearly the entire train was made up of 3-a-side compartments in second class. The only coaches that were open were the restaurant car and the first class coach (2+1).

The train was modern, comfortable air conditioned stock. Each seat had charging points for phones and laptops, and a control panel so that the occupants could control the heating, lighting and even the volume of the tannoy in the compartment.

The food in the restaurant was great value too, as was the coffee off the trolly.

We do not have to look far to see that we could do so much better for long distance train travel in this country. Doubly so given most of our rolling stock is built or designed abroad.

It is frustrating to be told that such levels of service and comfort are unrealistic to expect in this country when they are so readily encountered at low prices on the continent and once existed here.

It’s not nostalgia- all this stuff is alive and well (and cheap) across the channel!
It's both very interesting and annoying to see other countries continue with a better rail system than ours and all we get is trains that are good for commuters because they "have more standing room". Quite frankly, the only trains I ever stand up on for a journey are Tube trains. But I digress.
Seen as, as you say, most of our rolling stock over here is built / designed overseas, adding compartments to the trains over here, even if only in 1st Class in the beginning, would be a step forwards!

-Peter
 

Meerkat

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Not sure I like the idea of compartments
Great if you got one to yourself, rubbish if it’s busy with a very restricted view, and downright horrible if you are on your own and then get swamped by a party of undesirables.
 

Mogz

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You make some very good points, but it would be nice to at least have the choice of this style of seating, especially when travelling as a family or group.

I would suggest that the DB ICE layout with a mix of airline, table and compartment seating in both classes could keep everyone happy if (re)introduced here.
 

yorkie

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Not sure I like the idea of compartments
Great if you got one to yourself, rubbish if it’s busy with a very restricted view, and downright horrible if you are on your own and then get swamped by a party of undesirables.
That can happen if you're at a table too. Nothing to stop you leaving that area if so.

It's good to give people a choice

It works well on the continent, where train travel is generally better than it is in the UK for a variety of reasons, of which the availability of compartments is just one.

As it happens I'm in a compartment in the UK as I type this, and we are very happy to have a compartment.
 

big all

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how would air conditioning work with compartments??
you would need overly complex controls' ducting and the ability to only heat or cool specific sections
 

AM9

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That can happen if you're at a table too. Nothing to stop you leaving that area if so.

It's good to give people a choice

It works well on the continent, where train travel is generally better than it is in the UK for a variety of reasons, of which the availability of compartments is just one.

As it happens I'm in a compartment in the UK as I type this, and we are very happy to have a compartment.
The problem is that the UK loading gauge gives us coaches that are about 400mm narrower than most of their mainland European counterparts. Some are even larger (600mm +).
In addition, the turn-in at solebar level on UK trains has an evern larger impact on the floor width of a side corridor whereas the UIC profiles continue straqight down to below floor level. So the UK loading gauge effectively rules against an accessible side corridor, - and even modern non-prm expectations of walking space.
 

ed1971

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Around 1987, I recall seeing an appeal on Crimewatch after a young woman was murdered on a compartment train somewhere around London. Her body was only found after a member of staff opened the door at the destination station. This shows why compartment trains are unsafe. Does anyone remember the incident?
 

hwl

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Around 1987, I recall seeing an appeal on Crimewatch after a young woman was murdered on a compartment train somewhere around London. Her body was only found after a member of staff opened the door at the destination station. This shows why compartment trains are unsafe. Does anyone remember the incident?
Deborah Linsley, 23 March 1988 on a Orpington - Victoria Stopper with a compartment 4EPB. And that was the end of compartments just 120 years after the first compartment murder with plenty of other in between...
 

yorksrob

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Around 1987, I recall seeing an appeal on Crimewatch after a young woman was murdered on a compartment train somewhere around London. Her body was only found after a member of staff opened the door at the destination station. This shows why compartment trains are unsafe. Does anyone remember the incident?

Deborah Linsley, 23 March 1988 on a Orpington - Victoria Stopper with a compartment 4EPB. And that was the end of compartments just 120 years after the first compartment murder with plenty of other in between...

Those were non-corridor compartments. Totally different to the corridor examples with access to the rest of the train.
 

Mogz

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I believe that case involved very old non-corridor commuter stock. When was the last time anyone was murdered in a side-corridor compartment on the continent?

Plenty of murders have happened in hotel rooms, however. Are we now to sleep in open dormitories when travelling?
 

big all

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I believe that case involved very old non-corridor commuter stock. When was the last time anyone was murdered in a side-corridor compartment on the continent?

Plenty of murders have happened in hotel rooms, however. Are we now to sleep in open dormitories when travelling?

the stock was 4 car epbs exactly as yorkrob above picture
the aftermath was to reform the units with two open trailers or two compartment trailers and a thick red line above the door to denote compartment trains and only use during the peak hours numbered 55xx from memory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_415
 
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hwl

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Plus nowadays there would also be CCTV on the train, as well as greater coverage at stations.
Unfortunately most female travellers will point out the CCTV still isn't particularly effective in preventing assaults and much prefer open environments. For inclusivity compartments shouldn't even be considered as they effectively exclude half of the population if travelling on their own.
 

driver_m

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Picture it from a woman’s point of view. You’re in a compartment on your own and a gang of young scallys/football fans/etc jump in. Doesn’t take a genius to work out this is going to be pretty intimidating for the woman. I also remember that murder case on the Southern.

Open plan all the way for me. Compartments are a relic of a bygone era and would be a ASB nightmare in this day and age.
 

Mogz

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That might be a problem for commuter trains, but for long distance far less likely.

See the video of the ICE4 to see what could work in the UK...
 

big all

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Picture it from a woman’s point of view. You’re in a compartment on your own and a gang of young scallys/football fans/etc jump in. Doesn’t take a genius to work out this is going to be pretty intimidating for the woman. I also remember that murder case on the Southern.

Open plan all the way for me. Compartments are a relic of a bygone era and would be a ASB nightmare in this day and age.
whilst i fully accept your genuine and well caring comments we need to remember that perhaps 10% i dont know the actual numbers off men are also subject to the same abuse as women that off course should not happen

fortunately the system by default no longer assumes man guilty woman innocent
it now thinks look at the fact with less blinkered glasses on not perfect but more balanced
 

driver_m

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whilst i fully accept your genuine and well caring comments we need to remember that perhaps 10% i dont know the actual numbers off men are also subject to the same abuse as women that off course should not happen

fortunately the system by default no longer assumes man guilty woman innocent
it now thinks look at the fact with less blinkered glasses on not perfect but more balanced

Oh yeah, I’m fully aware that for a single male it’s just as intimidating in those same situations. But there’s too many on here looking at ‘the good old days’ and only looking at it from their own POV . I could use tons of examples and women was just the largest individual one.
 

yorksrob

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Oh yeah, I’m fully aware that for a single male it’s just as intimidating in those same situations. But there’s too many on here looking at ‘the good old days’ and only looking at it from their own POV . I could use tons of examples and women was just the largest individual one.

Since the 70's (when the CEP's were refurbished) compartments only comprised a quarter of the accommodation on Southern multiple units. That leaves more than enough room for someone who would rather avoid them at quiet times.
 

AM9

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... Plenty of murders have happened in hotel rooms, however. Are we now to sleep in open dormitories when travelling?
What a daft attempt at a strawman argument. Every hotel room that I've ever been in has a lockable door on it to keep every uninvited person out.
Compartments are gone as far as UK public rail transport is concerned. Get over it.
 

PeterC

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whilst i fully accept your genuine and well caring comments we need to remember that perhaps 10% i dont know the actual numbers off men are also subject to the same abuse as women that off course should not happen
SNIP

A male friend of mine was the victim of an attempted sexual assault in a compartment on an early morning train over 40 years ago. When it comes to physical strength, however, men are often better able to defend themseves. When the train reached a station the assailant hit the platform very hard only to be removed from the premises with a degree of rough handling that would not have had official approval.
 

Meerkat

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That can happen if you're at a table too. Nothing to stop you leaving that area if so.

If you are at a table the rest of the carriage can see what’s going on, and it’s easy to act polite tolet them have the table as a way to escape.
Would need a lot of cctv and would the unions accept the greatly increased ASB and assault risk?
 

61653 HTAFC

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What a daft attempt at a strawman argument. Every hotel room that I've ever been in has a lockable door on it to keep every uninvited person out.
Compartments are gone as far as UK public rail transport is concerned. Get over it.
Most murder victims know their killer, so the hotel comparison fails on two levels...

Anyway, full-width compartments were always a danger and it's amazing they survived for so long. Those with a side corridor are less of a problem on that front, but certainly not something that should return to the services they were used on last (SWT outer-suburbans mostly) however I'd welcome limited use of them in HS2 services in a similar way to how DB use them.

In October 2017 I was travelling on an evening service from Cheb to Prague, my reserved seat was in the sparsely occupied first carriage behind the locomotive, a second-class open coach. The train did include two coaches with compartments (one second and one composite) and during the journey the lass operating the refreshment trolley was groped by an intoxicated passenger. The first I knew of this was when the alleged groper ran through my coach and upon realising this was the end, hid in the toilet. The guard followed 30 seconds later and I pointed him to the toilet. The miscreant was then met by police at Plzen but only after the guard (not someone you'd want to upset, by the look of him!) had roughed him up a bit and made him apologise to the trolley woman. Not something that would happen here!

Anyway, apparently the initial assault had apparently taken place in the next coach back from mine which was another open saloon, not compartments.
 

Ken H

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Class 124 trans pennine units had 2nd class compartments in the MBSL. 2 in each set.

I remember the loco hauled trains on the leeds-lancaster and leeds -Carlisle trains - mostly compartment stock. Very spooky when travelling at night!

We did a trip from Warwick to Palermo by train some years ago. The Italian inter city trains we caught (not their Eurostars) were compartments. (Nice - Pisa and Naples - Palermo.) We shared 1 compartment with 2 Italian ladies who shared a huge bag of cherries with us!
 

Mogz

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I would not for a moment advocate their return for commuter stock.

A limited number of compartments on long-distance services such as Cross-Country would provide a choice for those who might favour them for specific reasons.

I speak as someone who has tried (and failed) to keep a toddler occupied in an airline seat on a long distance XC Service. Having a family compartment available in Standard would have been wonderful as it would have enabled the small person concerned to have room to play without running off, whilst keeping the loudness of said small person from annoying other passengers.
 

Islineclear3_1

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Deborah Linsley, 23 March 1988 on a Orpington - Victoria Stopper with a compartment 4EPB. And that was the end of compartments just 120 years after the first compartment murder with plenty of other in between...

4 EPB unit 5115 and this was one of 4 unique units with nine compartments instead of the standard ten. These were originally built as composite carriages in the 1940s for 4 Sub units but I don't think they ever ran in service as composites - I'm sure somebody will correct me
 
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