Agree totally,the industry/job in general has many flaws so why should the recruitment process be any different? Bottom line is there will NEVER be a system where you will please everyone,there will always be someone who has some form of gripe so we have to go with what is in place.
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Thoughts please failed 2nd MMI
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Agree totally,the industry/job in general has many flaws so why should the recruitment process be any different? Bottom line is there will NEVER be a system where you will please everyone,there will always be someone who has some form of gripe so we have to go with what is in place.
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I have read this thread with much interest having just failed my DMI. It really is gut wrenching but the pursuit must carry on. Have sourced feedback and will endeavour to improve on this if the opportunity comes up again.
What I want to know though is having failed the DMI:
Does this mean I have only one more DMI chance with that specific TOC or with ALL TOCs?
OR
Are my two lives still intact having passed all the process minus the DMI?
What I want to know though is having failed the DMI:
Does this mean I have only one more DMI chance with that specific TOC or with ALL TOCs?
OR
Are my two lives still intact having passed all the process minus the DMI?
dakta
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Assuming you're referring to the driver manager interview, then there's no limit to these as they do not form part of the driver assessments.
The MMI is a different kettle of fish, and would be 'one of your lives'.
The MMI is a different kettle of fish, and would be 'one of your lives'.
bb21
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London Underground is a separate entity to National Rail train companies so there is no requirement to wait.
I think the 6-month time lag only applies to the same TOC, although don't quote me on that and I am open to corrections.
I think the 6-month time lag only applies to the same TOC, although don't quote me on that and I am open to corrections.
Was your DMI with crossrail?
greatkingrat
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Driver Manager Interviews are not logged centrally so any other TOC you apply to wouldn't even know you had failed elsewhere.
Yes.....With MTR
Best bet is to email MTR and to ask for feedback, though I wouldn't be surprised if they issue the seemingly stock response of "you didn't demonstrate enough knowledge of MTR Crossrail".
I did hear somewhere that employers can see who else you have applied to via seeing who else applied to check your NI records, haven't a clue if that is actually correct though. You can resit a DMI within 6 months but not usually with the same company. I know of one company that only allows you to fail a single DMI with them specifically.
As for the OP on this thread, I don't think the "two strikes" rule relates to Tube or DLR. Apparently Tube internals can apply as many times as they like for a driver role.
I did hear somewhere that employers can see who else you have applied to via seeing who else applied to check your NI records, haven't a clue if that is actually correct though. You can resit a DMI within 6 months but not usually with the same company. I know of one company that only allows you to fail a single DMI with them specifically.
As for the OP on this thread, I don't think the "two strikes" rule relates to Tube or DLR. Apparently Tube internals can apply as many times as they like for a driver role.
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Really, which TOC is that?
I believe that LOROL have such a rule regarding their own DMI, you can fail as much as you like elsewhere beforehand, however if you fail a LOROL DMI twice than you cannot re-apply to LOROL specifically.
I may be wrong and I'm open to correction but that is what I have heard.
I may be wrong and I'm open to correction but that is what I have heard.
I've attended one TOC's MMI as part of my train driver assessment process. Unfortunately I wasn't successful.
As I am not completely happy with the way it was conducted, hence I am requesting you to please clarify the confusion I've regarding the process.
On the actual interview day I was asked if a trainee observer could observe the interview process as she was trying to gain her qualification, to which I obviously didn't have much choice and said yes.
I was later a bit surprised to see that it was just one manager doing my interview and asking questions when this trainee observe sitting next only took notes.
From the information I've gathered through different sources and people previously attended the same interview, I think it's a bit unusual for one person to hold such interviews and make decision solely, not sure if it's legal as per the rules.
I would appreciate if you please clarify the rules and common practice on this matter.
Please ask if you require any further information.
I would greatly appreciate your early response please.
Many thanks,
As I am not completely happy with the way it was conducted, hence I am requesting you to please clarify the confusion I've regarding the process.
On the actual interview day I was asked if a trainee observer could observe the interview process as she was trying to gain her qualification, to which I obviously didn't have much choice and said yes.
I was later a bit surprised to see that it was just one manager doing my interview and asking questions when this trainee observe sitting next only took notes.
From the information I've gathered through different sources and people previously attended the same interview, I think it's a bit unusual for one person to hold such interviews and make decision solely, not sure if it's legal as per the rules.
I would appreciate if you please clarify the rules and common practice on this matter.
Please ask if you require any further information.
I would greatly appreciate your early response please.
Many thanks,
WCMLaddict
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MMI interviews are usually done by one assessor.
Assessor doesn't make the decision on whether you pass it or no 'per se'. There are certain criteria, behaviour patterns etc that they look for in your examples, answers and explanations which they score you on. Also most of their questions are based and depend on what you wrote on the form before the interview (when you had to give examples of certain situations).
I would suggest you more focus on your examples and whether maybe you should improve your STAR answers technique.
Assessor doesn't make the decision on whether you pass it or no 'per se'. There are certain criteria, behaviour patterns etc that they look for in your examples, answers and explanations which they score you on. Also most of their questions are based and depend on what you wrote on the form before the interview (when you had to give examples of certain situations).
I would suggest you more focus on your examples and whether maybe you should improve your STAR answers technique.
This is obviously you asking here for unofficial info and advice based on a letter you sent to them.
I am surprised that you feel a grievance is necessary because you failed. I am also surprised that you are now looking for angles to use.
There is no "legality" about it, you were assessed and found to be unsuitable.
Your response confirms that you are unsuitable, in my mind, as you claim to have spoken to several sources and find one person interviewing to be unusual.
This is completely incorrect as one person interviewing is the norm and trying to twist and turn like a pretzel to possibly claim unfairness (questioning legality, policy and adding a bit of BS) would give any assessor enough doubt on whether you are suitable for a role which is safety critical.
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My advice would be to wipe your mouth and walk away, You failed.... im genuinely sorry you failed ''but'' you failed, TWICE... on the same part,
You couldn't pass the tests. Its sounds like your splitting hairs on the reasons of why you didnt make it the only reason you didnt is down to you and you alone, Life is short put it out of your mind and look for something else mate dont let it screw you up and as someone else said apart from the money, the job can be pretty crappy, however i am grateful for it. Good luck
You couldn't pass the tests. Its sounds like your splitting hairs on the reasons of why you didnt make it the only reason you didnt is down to you and you alone, Life is short put it out of your mind and look for something else mate dont let it screw you up and as someone else said apart from the money, the job can be pretty crappy, however i am grateful for it. Good luck
Fred Dinenage
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You were given a choice though, if you'd said " no " then the trainee would have had to leave. The same as in hospitals, doctor's surgeries, etc. You're always within your rights to request they leave.
I failed my CBI at my first assessments after passing the tests. At first i felt aggrieved at the lady who interviewed me and i was quite bitter. On reflection, one of my examples was pretty poor and that's why she'd failed me.
If it's your second attempt then you haven't displayed the competencies they're looking for to their satisfaction. Getting to assessment stage doesn't mean you're guaranteed a pass.
Try to accept the result and move on.
There are of course other rail jobs, if you're in London there's the Tube and DLR, plus various tramways across the country. If you really want to drive, there are of course many heritage railways where you can volunteer though you'll have to volunteer in non-driving areas first.
I thought I'd totally stuffed my MMI but somehow passed first time, though I've found DMIs really tough. One thing that has crossed my mind though is as follows:
Say someone did use up their two attempts at the MMI at a young age, then went off into a highly safety critical role elsewhere for 10 years (say the military, merchant navy or perhaps an airline pilot). Since their mindset and skills would likely be totally different would this count as a "mitigating circumstance"? Just a thought for those on here who have failed twice.
I thought I'd totally stuffed my MMI but somehow passed first time, though I've found DMIs really tough. One thing that has crossed my mind though is as follows:
Say someone did use up their two attempts at the MMI at a young age, then went off into a highly safety critical role elsewhere for 10 years (say the military, merchant navy or perhaps an airline pilot). Since their mindset and skills would likely be totally different would this count as a "mitigating circumstance"? Just a thought for those on here who have failed twice.
Fred Dinenage
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Alternatively, " two strikes and out " is the rule. As following rules and regulations is a hugely important part of the driver's job, maybe complaining about their fairness or validity suggests you don't hold their validity in high regard, reinforcing your unsuitability for the role.
Just a thought
Just a thought
the sniper
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We've had worse than that recently with one of the Guards at our place. He ended up being interviewed by a male and female, the female was apparently fairly obviously new. The male assessor said he'd be sitting in on the interview conducted by the female but ended up asking a quarter of the questions. After the fourth main 'tell me a time when question', the bloke just got up and left. As he went out the door with nothing being said my colleague asked in a half jokey, half bemused way 'are we finished', to which the guy replied 'excuse me I've got to go'. There was a silence and my colleague asked the female 'what does that mean?', she replied 'what', he said 'surely him leaving can't be a good sign?', to which she replied 'he was here for me'. Then they did the last two examples with just them in the room. He failed, was told that all his example were fine, but that he'd failed on "communication". They wouldn't tell him any more than that, which seems to be one of the only 'by the book' things that he got... All the Drivers at our depot who'd done the MMI have only ever had one assessor. This guy got two and had to deal with one walking out two-thirds of the way through. At best it's rude, at worst it seems like showing a complete disregard for following due process. It's not like the guy had to leave either. When they finished my colleague saw the male assessor sat in the office, shook his hand and thanked him for his time. More than he deserved I'd say!
I thought these assessments were supposed to be done to a fixed standard? To me, allowing variables like this into the process undermines it.
Or it was completely fabricated in order to explain his very poor performance under interview conditions. Which is more than likely considering the scenario that your friend tries to describe.
I'd agree it sounded quite rude but in all honesty I think it doesn't change the answers you give or how you deal with the situation. There can be times where I have 3 extra people in my driving cab and I need to be communicating with them and driving my unit at the same time. The railways is a huge place for distraction and if you can't deal with someone walking out an interview or an extra person in the panel then I'm afraid they are right in failing the candidate.
I think we can all relay issues with the assessment process. My MMI was a single person but my DMI was two. I also had a whole day of assessments rather than split days. I could moan about how much pressure I was under compared to the relative ease of doing the assessments over 4 days like some have but I just done my best and got on with it.
Part of the process is how you are able to deal with problems. "tell me a time when you had to deal with failure" was a question that was asked me. How you deal with it goes to your character. Moaning on a forum and writing a letter of complaint merely justifies the reasons some fail.
Sometimes one has to be cruel to be kind.
I used to be in the situation of recruiting people for vacancies. You state that you took this test/assessment twice and failed both times. There's a story there. Accept that you failed, you were tested and found wanting. End of. Move along, nothing else to be done.
The only sympathy that I can offer is that the people conducting the test weren't probably up to much themselves. Having watched a programme on the idiot box a few years ago about East Coast railways where a young (22-24ish) female manager conducted an interview whilst slurping a cup of coffee down just making notes with no eye contact. No doubt she had an 'ology in Business Studies or Social Media. If I was her manager we'd have had a no coffee and biscuits interview rather sharpish.
I used to be in the situation of recruiting people for vacancies. You state that you took this test/assessment twice and failed both times. There's a story there. Accept that you failed, you were tested and found wanting. End of. Move along, nothing else to be done.
The only sympathy that I can offer is that the people conducting the test weren't probably up to much themselves. Having watched a programme on the idiot box a few years ago about East Coast railways where a young (22-24ish) female manager conducted an interview whilst slurping a cup of coffee down just making notes with no eye contact. No doubt she had an 'ology in Business Studies or Social Media. If I was her manager we'd have had a no coffee and biscuits interview rather sharpish.
the sniper
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Believe what you like, but you don't know the guy and he didn't use it to explain why he'd failed.
You might question if one of them just walked off out of the cab unannounced though, particularly if you thought they were meant to stay in there with you!
No doubt he wishes he hadn't acknowledged the guy leaving at all, but I think he just really didn't anticipate that turn of events so it took him by surprise. He doesn't know if his reaction is why he failed though. He can imagine it could be something previous to that, thus why the guy left as there was no longer anything at stake. The one word feedback leaves much to the imagination... Still, it strikes me as being completely discourteous and random for him to walk out.
Anyway, none of this matters, I only posted on this thread to tell A2B that it could have been worse!
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Raul_Duke; Many thanks for the response. Now it clarifies that TOC didn't break any rules when only one person interviewed me.
THANK YOU
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Good Observation,
No I sent this somewhere else asking for rules clarification .
Now from the kind replies I received here it seems they didn't break any rules.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hi,
Appreciate you taking time to respond.
I am not really looking for excuses but genuinely was surprised as all the drivers I worked with and discussed "prior" to my interview, I was expecting to see two persons on the interview panel.
But from the replies I received here it seems I had wrong impression.
No I've not sent any letters to the TOC before getting assurance that my assumptions were true.
Thanks for your time and response.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thanks for the response. Yes you are absolutely right it takes some time to digest this rejection news.
Luckily it was my first attempt, will ask for feedback and will take it very seriously to improve next time.
Many thanks for taking time to respond.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Alternatively, " two strikes and out " is the rule. As following rules and regulations is a hugely important part of the driver's job, maybe complaining about their fairness or validity suggests you don't hold their validity in high regard, reinforcing your unsuitability for the role.
Just a thought
Thanks, just to clarify I didn't send above letter to the TOC but somewhere neutral asking for clarification. Now I am sure whatever person representing TOC did indeed was within rules.
I'll hopefully go better prepared next time.
Thanks again for your time.
Fred Dinenage
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No worries 
It's an awful feeling to not get through. At least with feedback you can address the area or areas where the assessor thought you needed to show more and build on that. Often there are better examples that could have been given but dredging them up perhaps from years ago is the hardest part.
The worst part though is the 6 month wait, then another position being advertised.
I'm glad you've got another " life " left, good luck for the future!
It's an awful feeling to not get through. At least with feedback you can address the area or areas where the assessor thought you needed to show more and build on that. Often there are better examples that could have been given but dredging them up perhaps from years ago is the hardest part.
The worst part though is the 6 month wait, then another position being advertised.
I'm glad you've got another " life " left, good luck for the future!
I know how you feel mate as i failed my MMI in April and it was the last step before Medical it is an awful feeling ,Three months now till my failure and is still affecting me in a negative way.I had a rare opportunity to get my dream job and it is just gone .I still have one attempt but I don`t know i will be even shortlisted if there is any vacancy advertised.
This is where you are failing. It's been months and your still not over it. **** happens, move on, rebuild, review and retry. Sitting there moping about it is pointless.
Attitude is everything. You failed. What happened ? How can you make it different next time ? How can you make the right changes ? Did you fail because of not meeting criteria or did you fail because you didn't come across enough ? Is it something you can work on ?
How you deal with failure is very important. Every time someone comes here complaining about how they failed and the lack of feedback etc just winds me up. That character trait IS WHY YOU FAIL. They are looking for people who can deal with adversity and deal with problems on the fly. There is a whole question on how you dealt with an emergency. There are questions where you are asked about where you failed and where you were unfairly criticised. The driving role is highly pressured and needs people who can deal with sensory overload and high pressure situations. The DMI and MMI are nothing compared to what happens out on track.
Be positive, learn and develop your skills and think outside the box. Take and accept everything they throw at you. Know what the rules are and remember you have a second go. 6 months, reapply and smash it out the park.
HTFU. You made the list before so there is little to no reason why you wouldn't make it again. There are so many Driver jobs available its crazy to think they are rare. You passed all the hard stuff and just need to resit the MMI. You have been successful on the rest of the tests so are already above the curve. Again, change the attitude to one that is more positive, remember that you have the advantage over new applicants.
Thanks very much Comutor for your advice and reassurance. I do really appreciate ur post and advice .I know why I failed and I will work on it .Iam a bit upset because I thought I prepared well but still did mistakes during the interview as u said **** happens and I have to accept it.I was a bus driver and dealt with difficult situations and emergencies and I know my weakness and why I failed and I will address that . What affected me that The MMI was the last hurdle before the medical and kind of your dream is shattered .Anyway cheers mate for ur post.
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