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'Through' trains

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Capybara

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I've no doubt this has been covered before but haven't a clue how to find out so apologies in advance.

I travelled from Harrogate to Morecambe on Saturday. I left the train to find the platform for my connection only to find that the Morecambe train was the one I had just got off. I guess (though don't know) that one reason it isn't advertised as a through train is that diagrams can't be guaranteed to follow the timetable for its duration but is there any reason why an announcement couldn't be made that any passengers requiring stations to Morecambe could stay put? Or that when tickets were checked similar advice couldn't be given? There was a crew change so perhaps they didn't know. But it would have been helpful.
 
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PHILIPE

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I've no doubt this has been covered before but haven't a clue how to find out so apologies in advance.

I travelled from Harrogate to Morecambe on Saturday. I left the train to find the platform for my connection only to find that the Morecambe train was the one I had just got off. I guess (though don't know) that one reason it isn't advertised as a through train is that diagrams can't be guaranteed to follow the timetable for its duration but is there any reason why an announcement couldn't be made that any passengers requiring stations to Morecambe could stay put? Or that when tickets were checked similar advice couldn't be given? There was a crew change so perhaps they didn't know. But it would have been helpful.

What was the timetabled time lag between arrival of one and departure of the other ? It may not be booked to have the same unit.
 

IanM

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I've been caught by that one before. It's 0957 to 1017 in platform 1 at Leeds, so quite long enough for a leg stretch and to grab a decent coffee before re-embarking for the next 2h43 to Heysham on a Pacer.
 

Capybara

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Indeed. And checking the National Rail website again it gives the platform(s) so I could have guessed if I'd been paying attention. It would have been nice to grab the seat I wanted.
 

TheEdge

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I was always cautious about announcing stay on this train for the xx:xx service if it was waiting for any more than a few minutes, just for the risk of unit swaps and people ending up in the wrong place.
 

dk1

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There are many guards who announce what train will be formed by the arrival to help, but you are always going to get those that can't be bothered. Sometimes it's just that it can be very unreliable so don't want to confuse. I have often thought it would be beneficial for more through services but suppose the TOCs don't want to advertise it as such if it is liable to change or probably more importantly it affects the performance figures.
 

johnnychips

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There are many guards who announce what train will be formed by the arrival to help, but you are always going to get those that can't be bothered. Sometimes it's just that it can be very unreliable so don't want to confuse. I have often thought it would be beneficial for more through services but suppose the TOCs don't want to advertise it as such if it is liable to change or probably more importantly it affects the performance figures.

And of course bus services have to go through the rigmarole of pretending through services are separate ('connection guaranteed - you can stay on the bus') over a certain distance. I've heard EU rules blamed (boo! hiss!) to 'comply[ing] with drivers' hours regulations' (Stagecoach Cumbria X4/X5).
 

bb21

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There are many guards who announce what train will be formed by the arrival to help, but you are always going to get those that can't be bothered. Sometimes it's just that it can be very unreliable so don't want to confuse. I have often thought it would be beneficial for more through services but suppose the TOCs don't want to advertise it as such if it is liable to change or probably more importantly it affects the performance figures.

Works both ways.

If the first one runs very late and unit swaps cannot be arranged, you will now have two late trains rather than one. Worse if you have to run both of them fast somewhere - two cancellations.
 

HMS Ark Royal

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Doesn't this happen with the morning Goole - Leeds? Service arrives on a through platform and forms the next service to Manchester Victoria
 

dk1

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Works both ways.

If the first one runs very late and unit swaps cannot be arranged, you will now have two late trains rather than one. Worse if you have to run both of them fast somewhere - two cancellations.

Quite agree. Annoying as it is you are better to just tell passengers they have to get off. That way they feel less short changed about the experience.
 

pdq

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...then they don't join together two services which could be one.
I'm sure this used to be a through service a few years ago: 2W81 arrives from Selby and 'terminates' at Huddersfield P1 (in itself a giveaway as it's a through platform) at 1744. This then continues onwards as the 1751 2B65 to Sheffield.

As an aside, is there any reason why RTT sometimes shows what service a train will form next but others don't? In the examples above, 2W81 isn't indicated as forming 2B65, but 2B65 will later become 2B60...
 

louis97

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As an aside, is there any reason why RTT sometimes shows what service a train will form next but others don't? In the examples above, 2W81 isn't indicated as forming 2B65, but 2B65 will later become 2B60...

All dependent on whether the planners put in an association in the timetable, it is nothing to do with RTT. Associations tend to be used in locations where the next headcode of a service is automatically interposed, generally areas with ARS (Automatic Route Setting). Mind you, associations can cause problems, I know of situations where it has been wrong and has resulted in delays.
 

MarlowDonkey

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I've heard EU rules blamed (boo! hiss!) to 'comply[ing] with drivers' hours regulations' (Stagecoach Cumbria X4/X5).


It's to do with how the EU defines a bus, or rather a bus service. In its infinite wisdom a bus service has a route of under 50 kilometres.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7312519.stm

Bus routes can be exempt from EU rules on working hours provided British rules are used instead. That depends of course on how you define a bus.

Now the dust has settled, no-one seems bothered by the pantomime of just changing the number displayed.
 

W230

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I felt guilty about this exact thing a couple of days ago.

The service I was driving as always 'terminated' at Sutton before continuing to Luton via Wimbledon. As I got the RA I heard a passenger say to the dispatcher " I want the West Sutton train but this one said it was terminating..."
 

fairliered

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The 1549 Edinburgh to Glasgow Central via Carstairs has formed the 1722 Glasgow Central to Largs every time my wife or I have caught it. However, there is a complete staff change at Glasgow Central and the on train staff are never able to confirm this. I usually wait until passengers get on and ask them if it's the Largs train before getting off, only to get back on, (especially as it can be full and standing as far as Kilwinning.
 
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And of course bus services have to go through the rigmarole of pretending through services are separate ('connection guaranteed - you can stay on the bus') over a certain distance. I've heard EU rules blamed (boo! hiss!) to 'comply[ing] with drivers' hours regulations' (Stagecoach Cumbria X4/X5).



local service = 'running board' + no tacho , domestic driving hours

not a local service = tacho and EU drivers hours
 

PHILIPE

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Diagrams are part of the planning process with a unit diagrammed to work another starting train or attach to another one. The fact that they could be termed as through trains is purely co-incidental This would entail an exercise going through every working one by one to check for such situations and would leave no flexibility for alterations to diagrams for whatever reason, i/e may be required to step up which would leave a train uncovered if waiting for it's normal working to be classed as a through train.
 
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Trainfan344

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06:33 from Stoke to Derby I think it was then formed the next service to Nottingham from Derby, useful for getting to Loughborough for GCR!
 

Crossover

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Doesn't this happen with the morning Goole - Leeds? Service arrives on a through platform and forms the next service to Manchester Victoria

Last time I saw it the Goole - Leeds went into p15 and was coupled up to another unit or two and headed to Neville Hill.
 

HMS Ark Royal

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Last time I saw it the Goole - Leeds went into p15 and was coupled up to another unit or two and headed to Neville Hill.

Really...? How old as, from one of my own trip reports, this is not always the case

Day 3

two weeks later and a slightly later start for us as me and big joan got up, got ready, got in the taxi and got to the station in time for the 06:00 to doncaster which we took to goole

another day - another trip by n7242c

the unit in command for this segment was that reliable unit, 158816

158816 at hull by n7242c

after sitting at Goole for a while, the empty stock came in for the run to Leeds which was one of the main reasons we had planned the trip - 142005 in charge. After a toilet visit for granny at leeds, we realised that the same stock that had worked the morning parly from goole to Leeds was now going to work a train to Manchester Victoria. Naturally, this unit was reboarded and taken all the way

142005 at manchester victoria by n7242c
 

Starmill

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I'm somewhat skeptical there would be many trains heading for the depot at that time!
 

HMS Ark Royal

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I'm somewhat skeptical there would be many trains heading for the depot at that time!

To be fair, Starmill, there is 5B40 Leeds - Neville Hill around that time...

Just to make it quite clear, this is from RTT with it set to show arrivals and departures on a Saturday

image.jpg


I can only assume that Crossover was either mistaken, things have changed since he saw it or otherwise it was a unit that needed returning to the depot
 

Crossover

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It is a little while ago since I used it last, but I watched them for 3 mornings (Fridays appear to be slightly different) in one week when in Leeds on a training course. I arrived on an ex Huddersfield (that had sat on Huddersfield Sidings overnight) 155 which coupled with the ex Goole and went off to depot. It may well have changed since though
 

Crossover

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I'm somewhat skeptical there would be many trains heading for the depot at that time!

There are 3 WTT and for Monday at least 2 STP paths just between 0800 and 0900 to Neville Hill so be as skeptical as you like - and one of them goes off Pl 15B (which is likely to be the one I saw - I hung around in the station til it went then I walked up to the training centre on The Headrow)
 

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Crossover

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To be fair, Starmill, there is 5B40 Leeds - Neville Hill around that time...

Just to make it quite clear, this is from RTT with it set to show arrivals and departures on a Saturday

image.jpg


I can only assume that Crossover was either mistaken, things have changed since he saw it or otherwise it was a unit that needed returning to the depot

Saturdays are likely to be different so not the best measure
 

route101

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Pretty sure ive had an arrival from Edinburgh via Shotts that goes onto form an East Kilbride service
 

Oxfordblues

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I've heard EU rules blamed (boo! hiss!) to 'comply[ing] with drivers' hours regulations' (Stagecoach Cumbria X4/X5).

A bus industry friend (who is a staunch Remainer) admitted to me that EU rules prevent through bus services being advertised over a certain distance and that to get round this the operators have to pretend they're two separate services. For example: you're not allowed to run a through bus from Oxford to Swindon, so there's a service to Faringdon and a "connection" from there, but of course it's the same bus all the way.

Once we leave the EU we can get back to common sense!
 
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A bus industry friend (who is a staunch Remainer) admitted to me that EU rules prevent through bus services being advertised over a certain distance and that to get round this the operators have to pretend they're two separate services. For example: you're not allowed to run a through bus from Oxford to Swindon, so there's a service to Faringdon and a "connection" from there, but of course it's the same bus all the way.

Once we leave the EU we can get back to common sense!

assuming that a single set of drivers hours are used for PCVs and that Tacho use of scheduled services is not required ... be careful what you wish for there ...
 

lightning76

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A bus industry friend (who is a staunch Remainer) admitted to me that EU rules prevent through bus services being advertised over a certain distance and that to get round this the operators have to pretend they're two separate services. For example: you're not allowed to run a through bus from Oxford to Swindon, so there's a service to Faringdon and a "connection" from there, but of course it's the same bus all the way.

Once we leave the EU we can get back to common sense!

I'm not sure this thread is the best place to discuss this, but anyway...

Nothing prevents anything being operated or advertised. If a route is 50km (31 miles-ish) or more it must be operated under EU drivers hours rules. This requires a digital tachograph to be fitted to the vehicle. These are expensive to fit, especially when you have a fleet of possibly hundreds of vehicles, and a PITA for operators admin-wise. It is cheaper and easier to put a note in the timetable saying that the service has a guaranteed connection somewhere.

For further reading, download the guide to Drivers Hours Regulations from the VOSA website, then decide which set of rules (domestic or EU) you would most like to operate your bus services under...
 
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