Ticket barrier problems!

[ThinController]

I often have this problem with Travel Cards issued st Bishop’s Stortford . I was told recently that if you keep your Travel Card near your Moblie Phone , and you get a call etc . The electrics upset the codings on the T/ Card .

It’s not that because a) replacing the card doesn’t solve the problem; b) it works fine in the GWR barriers.

 

[krus_aragon]

Ok. Thanks everyone. So any idea how I can fix this?

Based soley on reading others' contributions on this thread, with no special knowledge of LU barriers...

Have you tried using a freshly reissued ticket in a LU barrier before presenting it to any NR ones (if this is practical for your journey)? If it works here, that implies the problem is with the NR barriers' re-encoding of the ticket not being compatible with what LU expects for some reason. By extension, letting a LU barrier rewrite the ticket before any NR ones see it might guide the NR barriers to keep the data in the format the LU barriers like.

Do you have any barriers at the country end of your journey, or are the Paddington ones the only NR ones you use? Likewise, are you using the same gate every time at each point, or is there variation?

If this were strictly a timing (not valid yet) issue based on the date written to the new ticket by the booking office, you might be able to dodge an initial clock offset of up to two days by getting a replacement ticket issued on the way home for the weekend, and not presenting the ticket to a LU barrier until Monday (when the "start date" or similar is no longer in the future).

These are all stabs in the dark, but I hope they may be useful.

Edit to add: I may have been confused by other posters' issues on this thread, but is this a transient fault? In other words, has a ticket that stopped operating LU barriers ever started operating them again later, or have you had to get a replacement ticket issued to see any change?

 

[westv]

Yes, as you approach the gate you have the main display (green arrow, red cross, seek assistance etc...), on the left side of that display (ie facing into the walkway of the gate) is the 2 digit display. Can only really see it as you walk through the gate, look to your right as you pass through (it will display 00 if your ticket is valid)

I had another look this morning to see if I could see a number. Ticket was fine but I just wanted to see.
I still couldn't see anything. Is it down near where the actual barrier is? I'd feel a bit of a fool bending right down to try to see it.

 

[James H]

This photo shows the small screen on the side of the main display where the code is displayed:

https://bucketlistjourney.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/IMG_0718-1024x682.jpg

 

[ThinController]

Based soley on reading others' contributions on this thread, with no special knowledge of LU barriers...

Have you tried using a freshly reissued ticket in a LU barrier before presenting it to any NR ones (if this is practical for your journey)? If it works here, that implies the problem is with the NR barriers' re-encoding of the ticket not being compatible with what LU expects for some reason. By extension, letting a LU barrier rewrite the ticket before any NR ones see it might guide the NR barriers to keep the data in the format the LU barriers like.

Do you have any barriers at the country end of your journey, or are the Paddington ones the only NR ones you use? Likewise, are you using the same gate every time at each point, or is there variation?

If this were strictly a timing (not valid yet) issue based on the date written to the new ticket by the booking office, you might be able to dodge an initial clock offset of up to two days by getting a replacement ticket issued on the way home for the weekend, and not presenting the ticket to a LU barrier until Monday (when the "start date" or similar is no longer in the future).

These are all stabs in the dark, but I hope they may be useful.

Edit to add: I may have been confused by other posters' issues on this thread, but is this a transient fault? In other words, has a ticket that stopped operating LU barriers ever started operating them again later, or have you had to get a replacement ticket issued to see any change?

Thanks for these practical suggestions. Just to answer you,

Yes, in the past, the ticket has just spontaneously started working again (a GWR ticket office staff guy said to me that they were getting problems with their barriers and they hoped it would fix itself in a few days)

Here is my typical barrier sequence

Morning
Oxford (no entry barrier) to Paddington (usually exit barrier, depending on platform)
Bakerloo line (entry barrier at Paddington - exit barrier at Picc Circus)

Evening
exactly the reverse of the above

So I shall try getting it re-issued and then use it first in the underground before GWR.

 

[ThinController]

Just went to the GWR ticket office at Paddington. They told me the ticket is reading correctly and that I will need to ask the Underground to re-set the software on their barriers!

All of them?

 

[tomsy47]

Huh! I've recently had similar issues. Three weeks ago, I had to get a replacement annual season (as my original one had faded excessively). My local GWR ticket office issued me a replacement, and that works all National Rail barriers I've put it through (even ones away from GWR land, such as Romford), but doesn't work any LU barrier (except once randomly when leaving Cannon Street underground barriers)!

As my local station doesn't have barriers, and on the first day of use I arrived at one of the Paddington platforms without barriers, the first time I used my new ticket was in the LU barriers. I wonder if this caused the issue?

The new ticket has already faded significantly anyway so I'll have to replace it soon enough, which hopefully will fix the issue.

 

[westv]

This photo shows the small screen on the side of the main display where the code is displayed:

https://bucketlistjourney.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/IMG_0718-1024x682.jpg

Many thanks

 

[ThinController]

So a LU gate guy just said to me I was risking an £80 fine if an inspector catches me with this ticket. Whatever I say, as far as LU is concerned the ticket is showing 54 - which means cancelled magnetic strip.

This is ridiculous!

 

[furlong]

(and the response to that is to take a note of the employee's badge name and report the incident suggesting disciplinary action/retraining might be considered - you may have already got a simple breach of contract claim - but you can start building up evidence towards a potential prosecution of LU under the consumer regulations if they appear now to be accusing you of breaking the law and wilfully trying to make you buy new tickets you do not need instead of apologising to you for their technical failures and working together with GWR to resolve it)

 

[ThinController]

(and the response to that is to take a note of the employee's badge name and report the incident suggesting disciplinary action/retraining might be considered - you may have already got a simple breach of contract claim - but you can start building up evidence towards a potential prosecution of LU under the consumer regulations if they appear now to be accusing you of breaking the law and wilfully trying to make you buy new tickets you do not need instead of apologising to you for their technical failures and working together with GWR to resolve it)

Ha! yes, I guess so..

I really just wish they would fix their system though! Who do I call? (no doubt GWR will just blame LU and vice versa).

(better call Saul!)

 

[furlong]

Ask GWR if they can give you a printout (screen shot) of the data read from the ticket. You'll need this immediately after it's issued, before it goes through any gate.
Make a note of the time when they read it then check every data field for anomalies.

However, if the problem is in one of the LU data fields, their system doesn't display that, and you'd need to find some LU equipment to do the same thing (hard, given the shortage of ticket offices now) before you put the ticket through any LU barrier.

Otherwise, to engage LU, the first time you put the ticket through an LU barrier record the location/number of the barrier and the exact date and time and report that to them to ask them to investigate their logs (ideally with the ticket itself or a previous similar one, if you can find a way to do that e.g. close to its expiry or replaced with staff agreeing to submit it for technical investigation). (Make it easier to find in the logs by trying to leave a large time gap since the last person used that barrier.)

 

[ThinController]

As my local station doesn't have barriers, and on the first day of use I arrived at one of the Paddington platforms without barriers, the first time I used my new ticket was in the LU barriers. I wonder if this caused the issue?

Thanks. So you are saying it would be better to use the newly duplicated ticket in a NR barrier first then a LU barrier? I think someone higher up was saying the opposite.

Maybe the trick is simply to leave a big gap between the first LU use and the first NR use (maybe over a weekend) - whichever way around?

Ask GWR if they can give you a printout (screen shot) of the data read from the ticket. You'll need this immediately after it's issued, before it goes through any gate.
Make a note of the time when they read it then check every data field for anomalies.

However, if the problem is in one of the LU data fields, their system doesn't display that, and you'd need to find some LU equipment to do the same thing (hard, given the shortage of ticket offices now) before you put the ticket through any LU barrier.

Otherwise, to engage LU, the first time you put the ticket through an LU barrier record the location/number of the barrier and the exact date and time and report that to them to ask them to investigate their logs (ideally with the ticket itself or a previous similar one, if you can find a way to do that e.g. close to its expiry or replaced with staff agreeing to submit it for technical investigation). (Make it easier to find in the logs by trying to leave a large time gap since the last person used that barrier.)

Yikes! Ok. I can try that. But when you say "...check every data field for anomalies" I am not sure I'd know what to look for!

 

[sharpley]

Otherwise, to engage LU, the first time you put the ticket through an LU barrier record the location/number of the barrier and the exact date and time and report that to them to ask them to investigate their logs (ideally with the ticket itself or a previous similar one, if you can find a way to do that e.g. close to its expiry or replaced with staff agreeing to submit it for technical investigation). (Make it easier to find in the logs by trying to leave a large time gap since the last person used that barrier.)

All of the equipment for interpreting a magnetic strip has been removed from all but 1 LUL station. They left the TOM (Ticket Office Machine) installed at Stanmore for events at Wembley. Not sure if its still there though. You could try a LO station that uses FasTIS rather than a TOM (if you can find an office open of course as a lot of them are being closed too.)

If you show a NR issued ticket to a member of LUL staff I can guarantee they'll just tell you to go to a NR station, or at best contact TfL customer services. I'm also fairly certain they won't be able to trace paper ticket usage from the logs in the gate like they can with Oyster / contactless. You will need to send them the ticket so they can interpret it. TfL customer services, and the ticketing and revenue dept are all based in the same office at North Greenwich (14 Pier Walk)

 

[furlong]

All of the equipment for interpreting a magnetic strip has been removed from all but 1 LUL station.

Do revenue protection staff have portable equipment to read magstripes?

I'm also fairly certain they won't be able to trace paper ticket usage from the logs in the gate like they can with Oyster / contactless.

Indeed - the only index is likely to be the timestamp of the transaction in the log generated by the individual gate.

 

[ThinController]

It sounds to me as if you guys understand all this rather better than the many NR or LUL staff I have raised it with (whether on the gates or in the ticket office)!

They seem not to understand their own systems and just cluelessly respond with “no idea mate”, “hmm.. that’s odd” or “I’ll just print you another one out”

Consequently I’m not optimistic!

I think I should really be getting a product that actually works for £5,388.80!

 

[sharpley]

It sounds to me as if you guys understand all this rather better than the many NR or LUL staff I have raised it with (whether on the gates or in the ticket office)!

They seem not to understand their own systems and just cluelessly respond with “no idea mate”, “hmm.. that’s odd” or “I’ll just print you another one out”

Consequently I’m not optimistic!

I think I should really be getting a product that actually works for £5,388.80!

Do GWR not have their own smart card like South Eastern's Key card. TfL gates are able to read NR issued ITSO cards as well as Oyster, contactless. May solve a lot of issues (or create a load more new ones) if your ticket was loaded onto a card instead of a paper ticket.

 

[furlong]

You should! Repeated problems through different gates and different issuing equipment would suggest that a software update on the GWR issuing machines means it is writing one of the data fields on the magnetic stripe incorrectly. (It's happened before with other NR companies.) Alternatively LU made their checking stricter and trap a case that was previously allowed. These problems can run for months or years until someone makes the effort to find the people who are empowered to solve it, but if this was me, I'd start by trying to get the right TfL people to do a technical investigation.

 

[krus_aragon]

Thanks. So you are saying it would be better to use the newly duplicated ticket in a NR barrier first then a LU barrier? I think someone higher up was saying the opposite.

Yes, I said the opposite. My reasoning was that the ticket still operates NR gates fine, so you're still re-writing the magnetic data every time you put it through a NR gate (though possibly with corrupted fields in the LU-only portion of the strip). But if the NR gates misinterpret the Lu data somehow, and write it back incorrectly, then that would cause problems for the LU gates. Alternatively it might be the case that the ticket office is writing the LU fields in a slightly odd manner (As far as the Paddington LU gates are concerned), the LU gates throw a fit and mark the LU portion of the data strip as invalid, and then the NR gates just faithfully re-write the LU portion unchanged every time. My suspicion is the former is more likely, hence my suggestion.

Furthermore, taking a freshly re-printed ticket from the ticket office to a LU gate (TO->LU) helps with identifying where the problem is. If it works, then that suggests the problem is with the NR gate, on the other hand if it fails then the NR gate is probably blameless (and either the ticket office or LU gates are misconfigured). If you take the fresh ticket to a NR gate, you won't know if there's a fault until you take it to a LU gate (TO->NR->LU). If it works, that's all well and good, but if it fails, it doesn't help us work out where the fault is. (Is it in the TO-NR step, or the NR->LU step?)

Maybe the trick is simply to leave a big gap between the first LU use and the first NR use (maybe over a weekend) - whichever way around?

Perhaps, if the validity start date is the issue (as opposed to some other field misconfigured).

Yikes! Ok. I can try that. But when you say "...check every data field for anomalies" I am not sure I'd know what to look for!

There are certainly individuals here that would know!

I'm probably not one of those individuals myself: I work with computing and electronics, but as I live 200-odd miles from London I'm not familiar with what LU procedures etc. I can point you in the direction of an old thread which looks at the raw data structures encoded on the magnetic strip if you want some background reading: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/magnetic-stripe-encoding.130237/

 

[TTA]

In a similarly related thing, I'm having issue with a GWR season ticket not working on a break of journey, quite suddenly, even on different tickets as have changed tickets since.

 

[ThinController]

So.. a question.

Why do the barriers have to write anything to my ticket in any case? Surely all the barrier needs to know is if I’m good to travel? That’s a read operation, not a write operation.

Can someone enlighten me?

 

[island]

It needs to write the date and time last used onto the ticket to prevent multiple use of the same ticket (“passback”).

 

[ThinController]

It needs to write the date and time last used onto the ticket to prevent multiple use of the same ticket (“passback”).

Right. Of course.
Thanks

 

[krus_aragon]

Another benefit is that re-writing the magnetic strip on a regular basis should extend the longevity of the card, as it corrects the slow degredation of the data due to external magnetic fields.

 

[ThinController]

Ok. We may have got to the bottom of this.

Went to Paddington and the GWR ticket office re-issued the ticket. But when they did so, they spotted that the initial issuer (Abellio) had mistakenly issued it for a year + 1 day (starting 1st Sept 2018 and ending 1st Sept 2019). They reckoned that was what was causing the problems.

Anyway, it now works in the LUL gates. Not tried the NR gates yet.

 

[krus_aragon]

Ok. We may have got to the bottom of this.

Went to Paddington and the GWR ticket office re-issued the ticket. But when they did so, they spotted that the initial issuer (Abellio) had mistakenly issued it for a year + 1 day (starting 1st Sept 2018 and ending 1st Sept 2019). They reckoned that was what was causing the problems.

Anyway, it now works in the LUL gates. Not tried the NR gates yet.

That's a distinct possibility. Here's hoping it continues operating NR and LU gates for you.

 

[mailbyrail]

I used to travel Bedford - W.Hampstead Thameslink - W. Hampstead Underground - Uxbridge - St Pancras - Bedford with daily tickets and they would never work the barriers at Uxbridge, quite happy everywhere else. That was 5 or 6 years ago so it's been going on for years.