Ticket checks outside station

[penaltyfines]

But we aren't allowed to know what station it is! It's hard to judge.

Southall
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Oh I am sorry if I have not made myself clear.

You hadn't.

A passenger completing a journey at a station is expected to either (a) pass through a ticket operated barrier, pass through a barrier line (something different) - which may or may not be unmanned, or pass through a station which does not have a barrier at all.

The latter was applicable, no barrier, no ticket checks in the station.

Now it would seem reasonable that a passenger in possession of a ticket,which has not been collected, would have that ticket on their person and thus would be able to produce it immediately on request.

So if they followed me to the supermarket, it's still reasonable to ask?

The overriding point of this thread is *when* are you no longer required to retain your ticket?

Until a person completes their journey, they can expect that at some time they may be asked to produce the ticket for inspection so as to be able to demonstrate that they actually HAVE paid.

I most certainly have completed my journey when I have left the station. I have also finished my journey when I step from the train, as I am no longer travelling!

If you are required to produce a ticket anywhere within the station, why were CTA invented?

This is no different to being in a shop with an item which was purchased before a customer leaves a store.

Actually, the old saying of posession being 9/10ths of the law... a shop has no requirement to even issue a receipt, much less for me to retain one. I can walk out of the shop with my shopping and refuse to produce a receipt if requested. If they want to detain me for shoplifting, and end up being charged for wrongful imprisonment, on their head be it. Again comparing a train to a shop makes rail travel look a bit antequated, bit I digress...

For the sake of clarity, the journey is completed when the passenger leaves Railway premises. In practice we accept that the journey ends when the passenger passes through a ticket barrier, past the defined barrier line, or in some cases leaves the platform.

Clarity? Practice? I see 3 different times, how clear!

RPIs are generally pragmatic people who do not enter the job as a means of antagonising the travelling public, and will use their judgement.

I don't think you'll find much consensus on that, Southern TET (or whatever they're called) anyone?

Stopping people immediately outside of the station simply demonstrates without any discord, intent to avoid payment UNLESS a passenger specifically approaches the RPI for the purpose of paying the fare.

Past the ticket office, maybe. Off the premises, no.

That said Railway Byelaws make it an offence to be on a train without a ticket in specific situations. Situations which are not clearly defined will then fall under the 1889 Act once the passenger has attempted to leave the station.

Quite agree. Citizens arrest away, at their peril of it being false imprisonment/wrongful arrest.

I see being asked to produce evidence of having purchased a ticket on departing the station no differently to being asked to produce a sales receipt in the event of an item in your bag setting off a store alarm. Do people start arguing with the security guard ? No, not in my experience unless they are trying to thieve.

Again, bad example. What alarm have I set off? And again there's no need to issue, or retain, a receipt.

The Regulation of Railways Act 1889 is quite clear in that it is the responsibility of the passenger to produce a valid ticket when asked to do so.

On the train. Perhaps in the station, if within a CTA. How is this even relevant?

I really do not see what the issue is here, other than this modern attitude towards questioning even the most reasonable of request when made by staff in uniform.

You are showing your age. How does a uniform confer respect so any other human being. Equally, what gives them the right to interfere with my business outside of the premises?

The 1889 Act makes quite clear the consequences of not being able to produce a ticket.

I believe that the Conditions of Carriage direct passengers to retain their tickets until they have completed their journey. This is so as to get around this issue.

See above. Finished journey. No need to produce a ticket after journey has finished, much less of the premises.

An RPI will NOT be asking someone to produce a ticket somewhere down the High St. They will be operating from Railway premises in practically every case, and when stood outside of the station will again almost always be on Railway Property. Even if they are not they are still entitled under the 1889 Act to request a ticket.

HOW is this applicable? If you're off the premises, you have NO need to retain or produce a ticket. Sure they can arrest under 1889 act, but what proof do they have? They're setting themselves up to be arrested themselves. I can say 'no comment', and what do they have?

If you feel that there are many "heavy handed RPI types" then maybe a clue as to why can be read in the second sentence of the OPs first post. Had the OP done so in my time (when I would have had BTP around almost certainly) then they would have been having a word at the very least, as I would never tolerate under any circumstances my staff being abused by passengers in such a manner. Make of that how you wish, but I finally gave up frontline duties because of the hostile attitudes of passengers, which made the job so much harder. I admire those who can deal with such morons day in, day out, as I found myself becoming less and less tolerant with them as time went on.

I'm glad 'your time' is coming to and end as time goes on

If you feel that there are many "heavy handed passenger types" then maybe a clue as to why can be read in the second sentence of the OPs first post. Had the RPI done so in my time I would never tolerate under any circumstances passengers being irritated by RPIs abusing their powers in such a manner. Make of that how you wish, but I finally gave up travelling by train because of the hostile attitudes of RPIs, which made putting up with rail travel so much harder. I admire those who can deal with such morons day in, day out, as I found myself becoming less and less tolerant with them as time went on.

Perhaps a new thread is needed.

 

[Old Timer]

Southall.

Southall booking office opens out directly onto the pavement.

 

[penaltyfines]

Southall booking office opens directly onto the pavement.

correct.

 

[MikeWh]

Interesting. Thank you for sharing that. So, outside the doors is definitely not on railway property. There doesn't look like a lot of room inside though. As you go through the door you will have just walked past the ticket office ... last chance to buy? Or was there a block but sheer numbers of people leaving meant that some people managed to get through. I can see how that might exacerbate the situation if you were already late.

As to whether they are allowed to ask for your ticket outside that station, I'm not sure. Given the lack of space inside then maybe it is acceptable?

 

[Old Timer]

....I'm glad 'your time' is coming to and end as time goes on .

Thank you for that observation.

I am actually aware that I am heading towards the Winter of my life, fortunately most people tend to wish me well.

I see little point in further discussion with you as you have been given answers you clearly will not accept. I am sure however that with the attitude demonstrated on here you will discover for yourself whether what YOU think is actually valid at some time in the future.

 

[penaltyfines]

Interesting. Thank you for sharing that. So, outside the doors is definitely not on railway property. There doesn't look like a lot of room inside though. As you go through the door you will have just walked past the ticket office ... last chance to buy? Or was there a block but sheer numbers of people leaving meant that some people managed to get through. I can see how that might exacerbate the situation if you were already late.

As to whether they are allowed to ask for your ticket outside that station, I'm not sure. Given the lack of space inside then maybe it is acceptable?

They usually blockade the top of the stairs, or inside the doors, they just crowd it with 20 staff which bloody irritating but they're within their rights. Not sure why they chose to do it outside...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thank you for that observation.

I am actually aware that I am heading towards the Winter of my life, fortunately most people tend to wish me well.

I see little point in further discussion with you as you have been given answers you clearly will not accept. I am sure however that with the attitude demonstrated on here you will discover for yourself whether what YOU think is actually valid at some time in the future.

It was nothing personal. Just the old guard that think uniforms should be respected and you should do what you're told. I don't see where I have shirked my responsibilities (I bought a ticket, etc.), so I don't see why my rights should be infringed.

 

[yorkie]

Practically impossible.

For one thing you would have the ticket you just purchased, secondly you would have spoken to the staff, thirdly no ticket office is within the ticket barrier line, fourthly the RPIs would have seen you prior and would have seen that you were not travelling. Finally you would have a car possibly in the short wait car park, and in many cases you would not necessarily be dressed for travel.

These guys are not out to trap people, and the professionals have been round the block many, many times. The very very rarely make mistakes in my experience.

Huddersfield is. The entrance to the ticket queue is one side of the barrier. The exit is the other side of the barrier. So if you buy an Advance ticket you have to go back through the barrier.

Good point.

One of the (perhaps ex?) barrier staff at Huddersfield tried to get on a railtour when booked off sick, and threw a sandwich out of a moving train, and when caught was rude when challenged by a 'customer'. Of course such a person is absolutely not typical of railway staff, but such people do exist, and I certainly wouldn't trust them one bit. The problem is, if just 1% of barrier staff/RPIs are like this (and sadly I think it's probably a bit more than 1%) that's still a huge number, and given the enormous powers that they have, you can see why people have valid concerns.

That said, I do think, as someone who is generally pro-customer, that penaltyfines does come across as deliberately argumentative, however as we don't know the attitude of the staff he has come across, it is difficult to 'judge'.

The OP hasn't provided any photos of the station so no-one can really be sure one way or the other whether the request made of him at the station, now revealed as Southall, was reasonable or not, let alone judge if his response was reasonable.

 

[tony_mac]

I've had someone do this to me - as I was leaving the station, he was walking towards me the other way. Obviously, I wasn't expecting to encounter a ticket check (there was nobody else about), but instead of talking to me, or trying to attract my attention - he stepped across right in front of me and physically barred my progress. I thought this was unnecessarily agressive, and extremely rude.
If I had actually been on the pavement then I may well have pushed past him, as I was offended by his behaviour - and I am definitely not normally a trouble-maker!

Thinking about it, he may have been hurrying to collar me while I was still on the premises, but it's still damn rude!

 

[merlodlliw]

Can store security stop me on suspicion of shoplifting once I get outside the shop?

Outside the shop and within the curtlidge of the store yes, on public land,it must be the Police, etc etc.


Bob

 

[RPI]

They usually blockade the top of the stairs, or inside the doors, they just crowd it with 20 staff which bloody irritating but they're within their rights. Not sure why they chose to do it outside...
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I'd love to see you do a block at southall without plenty of backup!
As your probably aware, fare evasion in that area is rife, and no doubt your one of the people who always complain that fares go up etc, then as soon as we do something about it you become like a school kid who's had his football confiscated!
If you have a valid ticket what does it take to get it out of your pocket and show it? when we block Southall or Hayes we get numerous MG11's/PF's, all of which would have gone for free at YOUR expense, in an area where all trains are DOO aswell so you probably wont have shown your ticket at any point.

 

[Captain Chaos]

I was travelling on NR today, I went through the barriers and was leaving the station when outside I was stopped by a RPI or suchlike asking to see my ticket.

As I was off the premises I refused and pushed past (if I wasn't already late for work due to said NR I might have humoured him) - but my question is what authority do they have to check tickets on public land? I presume they were trying to issue PFs to people without valid tickets.

I fail to see how they can even do it on railway premises if there's ticket barriers, as they will eat paper tickets that have been used!

Since when has there been ticket barriers at Southall? The station has always been blocked manually using RPO/RPI's and security staff. I don't recall barriers being installed (god knows where they would put them anyway).

 

[b0b]

If you have a valid ticket what does it take to get it out of your pocket and show it?

Then I'm sure you don't mind when you're asked to show identification in order to verify you have the right to inspect tickets, and don't mind waiting while I attempt to verify said identification with your employer.

 

[andyfrommk]

Map and pictures of Southall Station.
Mouseover the booking hall and pavement to see pictures of them.

 

[alloneword100]

IANAL, though I work in a related field, and have access to Halsburys Laws.
Also being a sad git, I started looking at this, particularly at penaltyfines point about how long he had to keep the ticket.

I find it very surprising that such an ancient act is still the basis for prosecution, particularly one that seems not to define many of its key terms. Obviously people like Oldtimer know this stuff backwards, but there does seem to be a question about when you cease to be a 'passenger'. When there is no definition the normal fallback is the OED, which seems to define it by reference to being in a vehicle but not driving it, so I'm surprised it can be made to stick once off the train.

However, I'd also be interested to know how far out of the station penaltyfines was. My recollection of it would suggest that we're likely to be talking a few feet, unless they really were doing something peculiar. If so, I can see the argument that he is within his rights, but would agree that it is unreasonable to insist on it.

 

[Stigy]

Then I'm sure you don't mind when you're asked to show identification in order to verify you have the right to inspect tickets, and don't mind waiting while I attempt to verify said identification with your employer.

Rail staff have a duty to produce their ID, but waiting for you to verify it with the TOC isn't part of that duty...