ticket dispute - help please?

[richardtheblue]

Hi,

this morning I travelled on the 08:19 XC train from Banbury to University, using a saver return ticket (which the fastticket machine happily sold me beforehand). On board the ticket inspector told me that the saver returns are no longer valid before 9:30 am, as a result of the fare changes.

I replied that I thought they were, as the restrictions for this route are set by chiltern, and to the best of my knowledge this is still an 8A restriction (i.e. valid on any train).

She replied that this meant I was on the wrong train, and that the ticket was only valid on Chiltern trains. I said I thought the validity was for any TOC; she denied this. Fortunately she didn't try to charge me anything, but said that in the future I would not be able to use this ticket.

So, someone in the know - am I correct? Is the fare code indeed 8A? Can I only travel on Chiltern trains with this ticket, or also on XC?

More importantly (if I am correct) what should I say or do next time this comes up, when they try to charge me more, or fine me?

Thanks for any help you can give me.

 

[me123]

Firstly, it was nice of her to let you off. I've seen a few guards do so when there are genuine mistakes.

As I understand it, restrictions still apply as the recent fare changes only affected Advance ticketing; Savers will be in September. AFAIK, 8A is still the ticket restriction on the SVR on that route (based on NFM95) but we would need confirmation from NFM99 before I can confirm that; and as that's not coming out anytime soon. I think, however, that you are correct here.

As for the Chiltern, all Savers are any permitted train, and in this case the ticket is valid on any train so once again I would conclude that you are correct.

I'm sure Yorkie'll correct me

 

[yorkie]

Hi,

this morning I travelled on the 08:19 XC train from Banbury to University, using a saver return ticket (which the fastticket machine happily sold me beforehand). On board the ticket inspector told me that the saver returns are no longer valid before 9:30 am, as a result of the fare changes.

She is wrong, you are right.

I replied that I thought they were, as the restrictions for this route are set by chiltern, and to the best of my knowledge this is still an 8A restriction (i.e. valid on any train).

Correct!

She replied that this meant I was on the wrong train

Absolute rubbish.

, and that the ticket was only valid on Chiltern trains.

Nope, it's routed "Any permitted"

I said I thought the validity was for any TOC; she denied this.

She's totally clueless.

Fortunately she didn't try to charge me anything, but said that in the future I would not be able to use this ticket.

Use it anyway and refuse to pay any excess. Give your name/address if required. If they attempt to withdraw the ticket make sure you get a receipt which clearly states it was a Banbury to Uni ticket. Do not let them have your RTN portion though.

So, someone in the know - am I correct? Is the fare code indeed 8A? Can I only travel on Chiltern trains with this ticket, or also on XC?

You are right it is 8A any train, and it is ANY TOC.

More importantly (if I am correct) what should I say or do next time this comes up, when they try to charge me more, or fine me?

Thanks for any help you can give me.

Report it!

And refuse to pay the excess.

Sadly these nazi-style people do have a right to your name/address - which is totally morally wrong IMO - so you have to give that. They also have the right (again totally morally wrong) to withdraw your ticket BUT they MUST give a full receipt detailing where it was from, to, and the price. But personally I'd refuse to hand it over until they looked it up in the NFM.

Ask them "So what is the restriction code of this ticket?" they SHOULD look it up and say "8A", so you can ask "What does 8A mean?" they SHOULD look it up and say "Any train... sorry, sir"

Do not let them bully you!!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Firstly, it was nice of her to let you off. I've seen a few guards do so when there are genuine mistakes.

:???::???::???:

As I understand it, restrictions still apply as the recent fare changes only affected Advance ticketing; Savers will be in September. AFAIK, 8A is still the ticket restriction on the SVR on that route (based on NFM95) but we would need confirmation from NFM99 before I can confirm that; and as that's not coming out anytime soon.

Chiltern have not changed codes. XC have. September is irrelevant. The XC code is irrelevant for this journey as it is priced by Chiltern.

As for the Chiltern, all Savers are any permitted train, and in this case the ticket is valid on any train so once again I would conclude that you are correct.

I'm sure Yorkie'll correct me

Nah, you'r right!! But please don't say it was nice of her to let him off. He was not "let off" by any stretch of the imagination!!!!! We all need to stick together on this!!

 

[me123]

Oh, I agree that she's in the wrong, but still it was nice of her not to give him another ticket (which would be even more wrong in this situation) or kick him off even.

Maybe she slowly realised she was wrong and didn't want to admit it? Maybe she was still convinced she was correct but realised that it was a genuine mistake? Whatever the reason, she could have forced you to pay for a whole new ticket if she desired considering she believed that she was right.

 

[paul1609]

Are we sure that Banbury to University is priced by Chiltern?
I know they own Banbury to Birmingham Stations and also suburbs accessed from Moor Street/ Snow Hill and that they have an add on on their own tickets to any westmidlands station by agreement with WMPTE but i'm not entirely sure they would own a National rail flow to a suburb reached from New Street?

 

[theblackwatch]

Sadly there appear to be a number of staff who have not grasped the fact that Savers can still be used on their TOCs service if the restriction is set by another operator - XC have only been able to alter the restriction on fares they set. Your best course of action would be to contact their customer relations department in writing, explain what happened, quote the validities, and ask for them to put it in writing that the ticket is valid - then keep a copy of this with you. I've found that by writing politiely to TOCs, I've had a decent reply normally - you could even suggest that there could be a training issue if staff are getting it wrong.

 

[yorkie]

Are we sure that Banbury to University is priced by Chiltern?
I know they own Banbury to Birmingham Stations and also suburbs accessed from Moor Street/ Snow Hill and that they have an add on on their own tickets to any westmidlands station by agreement with WMPTE but i'm not entirely sure they would own a National rail flow to a suburb reached from New Street?

Yeah they do. It's not always logical. Priority is nearly always given to TOCs that operate into London.

For example, you wouldn't think Harrogate to Burton-on-Trent would be priced by EMT would you? But it is! Which means Savers are valid after 0900 rather than 0930 if it was priced by XC..

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I have to agree with yorkie here, report her, it helps if you have her name, but if you can tell them the train you were on and describe the person they can find her, you may even get an apology!

Restrictions apply to all TOCs equally unless specifically noted in the restriction or easement thereof, regardless who sets the fare. Any permitted means precisely that, any train along a permitted route.

 

[yorkie]

You may want to double check details of the train. The nearest I can find is the 0825.

Oh, and a Saver costs 10p more* than a SDR on that route, so I fail to see how they could excess you anyway!:roll:

* Admittedly not if you have a 16-25 railcard and are travelling before 10am,due to silly minimum fare rules.

 

[me123]

Well, they could give you 10p And yes, Yorkie, I couldn't find that train either. :?

Best thing to do IMO would be to be polite and ask them if it is valid when complaining (if you choose to do so). I'd also send them the evidence that you have to prove that you are correct in the case (less chance of them lying to you if they see the evidence striaght off).

 

[furryfeet]

so what is happening to savers in september then ?
will the "go with the flow" rule still apply ?

or will we, as a post suggests, have to carry a letter from customer services stating the validity of any ticket BEFORE we get on the train ?

I can foresee a violent incident happening before too long - then the whole thing will come out in court and expose the whole shabby fare system for what it is.

 

[adambro]

Please someone tell me there is an easy way to find out ticket restriction codes because I've still not become aware of one, how the hell can the TOCs/ATOC get away with it?

 

[me123]

Hopefully it won't get like that. Perhaps that one staff member is confused herself and everyone else will understand the rules. Perhaps she wasn't thinking clearly today. It's likely that there won't be an issue but you should write a polite e-mail to crosscountry just in case. Perhaps they'll sort everything out.

 

[digitaltoast]

Hopefully it won't get like that. Perhaps that one staff member is confused herself and everyone else will understand the rules. Perhaps she wasn't thinking clearly today. It's likely that there won't be an issue but you should write a polite e-mail to crosscountry just in case. Perhaps they'll sort everything out.

Oddly enough, I just posted a thread about exactly what to do in this case...
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17967

 

[Ascot]

Digitaltoast, take a look at the National Fares Manual 99 thread in this ticketing section. We have had 2 different answers from the same company which might be useful for your report.

 

[digitaltoast]

Digitaltoast, take a look at the National Fares Manual 99 thread in this ticketing section. We have had 2 different answers from the same company which might be useful for your report.

This thread?
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17938

Interesting - not being a train expert (though rapidly learning since the 18th and thanks to this forum) I didn't even know the fares manual was every available anyway! Interesting - I'll try googling for it and keep an eye to that thread.

 

[me123]

Oddly enough, I just posted a thread about exactly what to do in this case...
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17967

Ha ha ha good for her! That's exactly what you should do. I'd personally go for a quieter approach, but it probably wouldn't work. I've never really had problems with ticket inspectors; my only issue is getting them to accept that a ticket EDB-CBC is valid via FKG and CUB and even then they realise after I explain the route to them*.

(*To be fair, boarding a train to Dunblane with a ticket to Coatbridge seems a bit odd when you first think about it).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

so what is happening to savers in september then ?
will the "go with the flow" rule still apply ?....

I don't think there is an official line on the restriction codes yet, but the saver tickets themselves will either become Anytime Open or Off-Peak Open tickets dependant on if there is a SOR for the route currently.

Please someone tell me there is an easy way to find out ticket restriction codes because I've still not become aware of one, how the hell can the TOCs/ATOC get away with it?

Ask?

Ticket offices must tell you if there are any restrictions that apply to your ticket, if they don't, ask them if there are any, if they seem unsure, ask them to double check (which may now be more difficult as they no longer print the NFM for stations).

 

[yorkie]

I don't think there is an official line on the restriction codes yet, but the saver tickets themselves will either become Anytime Open or Off-Peak Open tickets dependant on if there is a SOR for the route currently.

Interesting. Is this confirmed? This has several implications - some good, some bad...

 

[richardtheblue]

Yes, in the original post I meant the 08:25 - I mixed up the times for the north and south-bound XC services. I was indeed using a YPR - sorry for not mentioning this - so it does make a significant difference costwise.

Thanks for all your help - I have emailed CrossCountry about this, and I'll let you know what they say, and if I have any more trouble on the trains...

 

[yorkie]

Yes, in the original post I meant the 08:25 - I mixed up the times for the north and south-bound XC services. I was indeed using a YPR - sorry for not mentioning this - so it does make a significant difference costwise.

Indeed, due to the minimum fare rule.

A very major question is: what happens to the minimum fare rule from September?

If all Anytime returns are subject to £16 minimum in the same way that Standard returns are now, and if, as hairyhandedfool suggests above, the Savers that have code 8A "Valid at any time" become Anytime fares, then you have a situation where there is a MASSIVE fare rise by stealth for many students getting to university/college.

I'm not saying that scenario is going to happen. I don't know. But there is a risk that it might.

VXC have got around this by making their 8A savers valid "After 0500" which only bars them from very few trains such as the overnight TPE services, so those tickets will be re-branded "Off peak" it's just that peak time for those tickets (e.g. a York to Taunton or a Darlington to Cheltenham) ends at 05:00, while a York to Cheltenham peak time ends at 09:30.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

yes it is confirmed, depending on other available fares (newsrail express, issue 360). A good example of this would be Manchester to Rhyl, no SOR ticket, Saver would be Anytime Open, not Off-peak Open.

I don't know how it will play out where two routes exist over one journey.

 

[Chris B]

I took this up with Passenger Focus & have had this response....

I was concerned to hear that Cross Country train staff are querying saver ticket validity on flows that aren't set by Cross Country. We have written to Cross Country about the changes in restrictions and the sort of confusion it can create – and this seems a prime example as the confusion is amongst Cross Country’s own staff!

I have raised your concerns with Cross Country and have been assured that train managers should be aware of the flows that are priced by other operators. The Head of Revenue is now to take this up with regional managers.

Hopefully the challenges to passengers will now stop, but please let me know if you hear otherwise.

Please post again if any further problems are encountered.

 

[digitaltoast]

Well done on getting a response from any of them!

I wrote a lengthy but polite "reply request" letter to Cross Country, ATOC and Passenger focus over a week ago and haven't received a reply from any of them.