Ticket "excess" query

[Hux71]

Hi,

I'm not sure if anyone will be able to shed any light on this one for me but I'm just slightly incredulous that it can, in fact, be correct!

I'm caught a train this morning returning from Birmingham to Exeter. I bought a ticket which cost £90+ for which the return element was off peak, and a split ticket, so initially to Bristol. I blithely went to catch the train this morning only to discover that off peak, which I'd believed to be after 9am, was actually 9.30 and was told I needed to go to the ticket office and pay the excess as my train was at 9.12.

Okay, my bad, so I went to do just that, however the chap in the ticket office told me that paying the excess would be so much that buying a new ticket would be my cheapest option. Said ticket, from Birmingham to Bristol cost £64.20.

I wasn't really in a position to query this as a) I really needed to catch that train and b) I was a bit tearful as the reason I was travelling in the first place was due to a family bereavement, but seriously, £64.20 for a journey for which I already had a ticket that'd have been valid 18 minutes later? Can this possibly be correct?!

 

[clagmonster]

You presumably held the return portion of an off peak return from Bristol to Birmingham, priced at £61.90. The appropriate ticket would have been an anytime return, priced at £128.30, so the excess for a change of ticket type would be the full difference at £66.40. Thus the clerk was correct that a new single was cheaper. I agree it is very pricey.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi,

I'm not sure if anyone will be able to shed any light on this one for me but I'm just slightly incredulous that it can, in fact, be correct!

I'm caught a train this morning returning from Birmingham to Exeter. I bought a ticket which cost £90+ for which the return element was off peak, and a split ticket, so initially to Bristol. I blithely went to catch the train this morning only to discover that off peak, which I'd believed to be after 9am, was actually 9.30 and was told I needed to go to the ticket office and pay the excess as my train was at 9.12.

Okay, my bad, so I went to do just that, however the chap in the ticket office told me that paying the excess would be so much that buying a new ticket would be my cheapest option. Said ticket, from Birmingham to Bristol cost £64.20.

I wasn't really in a position to query this as a) I really needed to catch that train and b) I was a bit tearful as the reason I was travelling in the first place was due to a family bereavement, but seriously, £64.20 for a journey for which I already had a ticket that'd have been valid 18 minutes later? Can this possibly be correct?!

Not that it will help you now, but had you asked for a ticket to take you as far as a station the train you were on stopped at after 9.30am I suspect it would have been cheaper. Since after 9.30am the ticket you already held would have become valid for the remainder of the journey (unless the train was non stop Birmingham to Bristol in which case my idea would not have been permitted.

This is a version of what is known as 'split ticketing' but please bear in mind that the train you are on must stop at the station where you split the tickets, even though there is no requirement for you to get off the train (or even leave your seat, unless it is reserved by someone else for the part of the journey beyond the split)

I only mention this in case it is of help in a future situation.

Frustratingly the definition of 'off peak' can vary route by route (for good reasons but it can be very unhelpful) - ie 9am is not a blanket 'off peak' cut off time across the country.

 

[Starmill]

An additional ticket split at Cheltenham Spa would have saved you here, but I'm afraid that the ticket office cannot reasonably be expected to calculate that for you. I'm sorry that your journey was so overpriced but I'm afraid it would appear that you were given the correct ticket.

The prices of "Anytime" tickets in this area are often completely ludicrous. This is why lots of people simply don't use the railway.

Note that the return portion of your Off Peak Return is now unused because you paid for an additional ticket. This means that you may still use it within its normal validity period if that's any use to you.

 

[AlterEgo]

Not that it will help you now, but had you asked for a ticket to take you as far as a station the train you were on stopped at after 9.30am I suspect it would have been cheaper. Since after 9.30am the ticket you already held would have become valid for the remainder of the journey (unless the train was non stop Birmingham to Bristol in which case my idea would not have been permitted.

This is a version of what is known as 'split ticketing' but please bear in mind that the train you are on must stop at the station where you split the tickets, even though there is no requirement for you to get off the train (or even leave your seat, unless it is reserved by someone else for the part of the journey beyond the split)

I only mention this in case it is of help in a future situation.

Frustratingly the definition of 'off peak' can vary route by route (for good reasons but it can be very unhelpful) - ie 9am is not a blanket 'off peak' cut off time across the country.

A single to Cheltenham would have been £29.10 and a much cheaper alternative, indeed. The Off Peak ticket would have been used from then with no issues.

 

[Hux71]

Thanks so much for all the informative responses - I remainl somewhat incensed but I guess you live and learn!

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks so much for all the informative responses - I remainl somewhat incensed but I guess you live and learn!

I trust your trains were not over 15 mins late were they? If they had been I'd say you could at least claim some money back via the Delay-Repay entitlement (further advice given here if that was applicable).

 

[Starmill]

Thanks so much for all the informative responses - I remainl somewhat incensed but I guess you live and learn!

One thing you could do is write to your MP explaining what happened and quoting some of the ticket prices you've paid for your recent travels. You can ask them to lobby the government or write to the Rail Minister with your concerns that the railway is too expensive for the general public to use, or that it is not offering value for money in exchange for the substantial public funding it receives.

 

[furlong]

Unless you wanted to retain the return portion of the ticket as unused so that you could use it on another occasion, it sounds like you were overcharged and you should complain and insist upon a partial refund. Your ticket was presumably valid from the first stop of the train, Cheltenham Spa, after 9.30am, and so you should only have been sold a new ticket as far as that station. It seems that you were told you had to pay twice for the portion of the journey from Cheltenham to Bristol, which. under consumer legislation, should not have happened (except by your fully-informed choice). Train companies have form for this - a similar situation in London has given rise to a legal claim https://boundaryfares.com/

 

[WesternLancer]

Unless you wanted to retain the return portion of the ticket as unused so that you could use it on another occasion, it sounds like you were overcharged and you should complain and insist upon a partial refund. Your ticket was presumably valid from the first stop of the train, Cheltenham Spa, after 9.30am, and so you should only have been sold a new ticket as far as that station. It seems that you were told you had to pay twice for the portion of the journey from Cheltenham to Bristol, which. under consumer legislation, should not have happened (except by your fully-informed choice). Train companies have form for this - a similar situation in London has given rise to a legal claim https://boundaryfares.com/

I very much doubt the conversation would have gone along those lines however.

 

[furlong]

The railway should have presented the 4 options to the passenger filtered according to any preferences the passenger expressed in response to questions or discussion (such as a desire to travel immediately and to take the cheapest option) - wait and travel when the ticket would be valid, convert the ticket into a valid one via an excess, buy a new ticket that covers the gap in validity, or retain the ticket for use on another occasion and purchase a replacement ticket. The 4th option could only have been offered if it was clear the passenger would still have a separate use for the original ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

It is really frustrating to see yet another ticket office proving it is worth its weight in nuclear waste.

 

[RPI]

The railway should have presented the 4 options to the passenger filtered according to any preferences the passenger expressed in response to questions or discussion (such as a desire to travel immediately and to take the cheapest option) - wait and travel when the ticket would be valid, convert the ticket into a valid one via an excess, buy a new ticket that covers the gap in validity, or retain the ticket for use on another occasion and purchase a replacement ticket. The 4th option could only have been offered if it was clear the passenger would still have a separate use for the original ticket.

The new ticket was cheaper than the excess, as stated above

 

[diffident]

It is really frustrating to see yet another ticket office proving it is worth its weight in nuclear waste.

I think it is fair to say, it depends on what member of staff you happen to come across. I've had dealings with very knowledgeable staff who work through all the viable options. I've also come across staff that don't give two hoots.

 

[RPI]

I think it is fair to say, it depends on what member of staff you happen to come across. I've had dealings with very knowledgeable staff who work through all the viable options. I've also come across staff that don't give two hoots.

The OP stated in their post that they really needed to catch that particular train.

 

[diffident]

The OP stated in their post that they really needed to catch that particular train.

Oh yes, I understand that, my point is about the "chap at the ticket office" that the OP spoke to, who could/should have advised getting a ticket to Cheltenham.

 

[RPI]

Oh yes, I understand that, my point is about the "chap at the ticket office" that the OP spoke to, who could/should have advised getting a ticket to Cheltenham.

Surely the original restriction on the ticket would still apply, depending on the wording though (I haven't looked at the specific wording of this restriction i will admit)

 

[diffident]

Surely the original restriction on the ticket would still apply, depending on the wording though (I haven't looked at the specific wording of this restriction i will admit)

It's been mentioned up-thread that getting a single ticket to the next stop on the service, the original ticket would come into validity - thus not paying the full single fare as the OP did. All they needed to pay, was for a ticket to a station where the stop was after their original ticket became valid.

 

[daodao]

It's been mentioned up-thread that getting a single ticket to the next stop on the service, the original ticket would come into validity

That doesn't seem logical to me; surely the validity of an off peak ticket throughout the journey is determined by the time the train leaves the originating point of the journey, as stated on the ticket?

 

[diffident]

That doesn't seem logical to me; surely the validity of an off peak ticket throughout the journey is determined by the time the train leaves the originating point of the journey, as stated on the ticket?

A single to Cheltenham would have been £29.10 and a much cheaper alternative, indeed. The Off Peak ticket would have been used from then with no issues.

It's simply split-ticketing at this point. A single to Cheltenham, and then using the rest of the Off Peak ticket for the remainder of the journey would have been satisfactory, surely?

 

[daodao]

Surely the original restriction on the ticket would still apply,

It's simply split-ticketing at this point. A single to Cheltenham, and then using the rest of the Off Peak ticket for the remainder of the journey would have been satisfactory, surely?

RPI seems to think not. An off peak ticket from Cheltenham to Bristol would have been valid on the train, but that was not the ticket held. Supposing a guard checks all tickets from Birmingham and Cheltenham between Cheltenham and Bristol (having not done so between Birmingham and Cheltenham) and one presents an off peak Birmingham to Bristol ticket on the 0912 Birmingham departure - what would happen then?

However, would a combination of a peak single from Birmingham to Cheltenham (£29-10) and an off peak single from Cheltenham to Bristol (£10-60) have covered the journey legitimately, at a lower cost than the peak ticket from Birmingham to Bristol?

 

[furlong]

The new ticket was cheaper than the excess, as stated above

A ticket that just covered the 'gap' in validity was cheaper (as anyone would expect intuitively, it being a shorter distance - no anomaly involved here). It's the same as a passenger presenting a season ticket that covers the journey from the first place where the train stops and then the ticket office ignoring it and insisting they pay again for that portion of the journey, just like the boundary zone issue I linked to. If that claim is successful in the courts, claims like this thread may follow, but would be smaller in number unless someone succeeds in arguing that the railway has a duty to offer split tickets as an option whenever they would be cheaper (and I wouldn't rule that out - I think the case for it is arguable - the technology is available and proven so it's a currently only a business decision by train companies to charge passengers on some journeys more than the rules say they need to pay and to fail to make them aware of any cheaper alternatives).

That doesn't seem logical to me; surely the validity of the ticket throughout the journey is determined by the time the train leaves the originating point of the journey, as stated on the ticket?

The ticket permits break of journey. There's no obligation to travel the whole distance the ticket permits. Time restrictions attached to a ticket necessarily only apply whilst that ticket is being used and it's well-established how break of journey interacts with time restrictions. Multiple tickets can be combined to make a journey.

The restriction is printed on the ticket and so applies precisely without qualification - "NOT VALID ON ANY TRAIN BEFORE 0930 MON-FRI". The longer version says essentially the same thing just making clear that the day begins at 4.30am and it's based on a train's scheduled time not actual running time.

 

[AlterEgo]

A ticket that just covered the 'gap' in validity was cheaper (as anyone would expect intuitively, it being a shorter distance - no anomaly involved here). It's the same as a passenger presenting a season ticket that covers the journey from the first place where the train stops and then the ticket office ignoring it and insisting they pay again for that portion of the journey, just like the boundary zone issue I linked to. If that claim is successful in the courts, claims like this thread may follow, but would be smaller in number unless someone succeeds in arguing that the railway has a duty to offer split tickets as an option whenever they would be cheaper (and I wouldn't rule that out - I think the case for it is arguable - the technology is available and proven so it's a currently only a business decision by train companies to charge passengers on some journeys more than the rules say they need to pay and to fail to make them aware of any cheaper alternatives).



The ticket permits break of journey. There's no obligation to travel the whole distance the ticket permits. Time restrictions attached to a ticket necessarily only apply whilst that ticket is being used and it's well-established how break of journey interacts with time restrictions. Multiple tickets can be combined to make a journey.

The restriction is printed on the ticket and so applies precisely without qualification - "NOT VALID ON ANY TRAIN BEFORE 0930 MON-FRI". The longer version says essentially the same thing just making clear that the day begins at 4.30am and it's based on a train's scheduled time not actual running time.

I agree. In any case, the intent of the wording is simply to disallow travel on Off Peak tickets before 0930. The same proviso applies to people using an All Line Rover on Avanti from Birmingham New Street to London at 0950 but buying a single to Birmingham International.

 

[RPI]

A ticket that just covered the 'gap' in validity was cheaper (as anyone would expect intuitively, it being a shorter distance - no anomaly involved here). It's the same as a passenger presenting a season ticket that covers the journey from the first place where the train stops and then the ticket office ignoring it and insisting they pay again for that portion of the journey, just like the boundary zone issue I linked to. If that claim is successful in the courts, claims like this thread may follow, but would be smaller in number unless someone succeeds in arguing that the railway has a duty to offer split tickets as an option whenever they would be cheaper (and I wouldn't rule that out - I think the case for it is arguable - the technology is available and proven so it's a currently only a business decision by train companies to charge passengers on some journeys more than the rules say they need to pay and to fail to make them aware of any cheaper alternatives).



The ticket permits break of journey. There's no obligation to travel the whole distance the ticket permits. Time restrictions attached to a ticket necessarily only apply whilst that ticket is being used and it's well-established how break of journey interacts with time restrictions. Multiple tickets can be combined to make a journey.

The restriction is printed on the ticket and so applies precisely without qualification - "NOT VALID ON ANY TRAIN BEFORE 0930 MON-FRI". The longer version says essentially the same thing just making clear that the day begins at 4.30am and it's based on a train's scheduled time not actual running time.

Re your capitals above answers my question, as I stated, I hadn't looked at the particular restriction in this case hence I wasn't sure, generally restrictions I see daily in my area are a little more specific in for example "VALID ON TRAINS DUE TO DEPART LONDON PADDINGTON OR WATERLOO AFTER 10:10 AND BEFORE 15:00", which would bar a particular set of trains regardless of where you were boarding with that ticket.

That doesn't seem logical to me; surely the validity of an off peak ticket throughout the journey is determined by the time the train leaves the originating point of the journey, as stated on the ticket?

This is the lines I was thinking along as this is the case for a lot of restrictions where the off-peak time is dictated by specific trains timed to depart certain stations.

However, it appears that the restriction in this case is simply valid after 09:30.

 

[miklcct]

A ticket that just covered the 'gap' in validity was cheaper (as anyone would expect intuitively, it being a shorter distance - no anomaly involved here). It's the same as a passenger presenting a season ticket that covers the journey from the first place where the train stops and then the ticket office ignoring it and insisting they pay again for that portion of the journey, just like the boundary zone issue I linked to. If that claim is successful in the courts, claims like this thread may follow, but would be smaller in number unless someone succeeds in arguing that the railway has a duty to offer split tickets as an option whenever they would be cheaper (and I wouldn't rule that out - I think the case for it is arguable - the technology is available and proven so it's a currently only a business decision by train companies to charge passengers on some journeys more than the rules say they need to pay and to fail to make them aware of any cheaper alternatives).



The ticket permits break of journey. There's no obligation to travel the whole distance the ticket permits. Time restrictions attached to a ticket necessarily only apply whilst that ticket is being used and it's well-established how break of journey interacts with time restrictions. Multiple tickets can be combined to make a journey.

The restriction is printed on the ticket and so applies precisely without qualification - "NOT VALID ON ANY TRAIN BEFORE 0930 MON-FRI". The longer version says essentially the same thing just making clear that the day begins at 4.30am and it's based on a train's scheduled time not actual running time.

If such a ticket will be valid from an intermediate station after 09:30, by the same logic, it will not be valid if I start the journey before 04:30 after it makes a station call after 04:30, that I need to buy an anytime to cover the remainder, right?

 

[SteveM70]

RPI seems to think not. An off peak ticket from Cheltenham to Bristol would have been valid on the train, but that was not the ticket held. Supposing a guard checks all tickets from Birmingham and Cheltenham between Cheltenham and Bristol (having not done so between Birmingham and Cheltenham) and one presents an off peak Birmingham to Bristol ticket on the 0912 Birmingham departure - what would happen then?

One would present two tickets; a valid ticket Birmingham to Cheltenham, and the now valid off peak ticket for the remainder.

 

[Watershed]

If such a ticket will be valid from an intermediate station after 09:30, by the same logic, it will not be valid if I start the journey before 04:30 after it makes a station call after 04:30, that I need to buy an anytime to cover the remainder, right?

It depends on the wording of the restriction, but in the case of restriction code 2V, which is widely used by CrossCountry, you would be allowed to board a train departing before 04:30 and to remain onboard for as long as you like. Journey planners reflect this.

Good luck finding a train that departs before 04:30 though!

 

[Deafdoggie]

An off peak ticket from Cheltenham to Bristol would have been valid on the train, but that was not the ticket held. Supposing a guard checks all tickets from Birmingham and Cheltenham between Cheltenham and Bristol (having not done so between Birmingham and Cheltenham) and one presents an off peak Birmingham to Bristol ticket on the 0912 Birmingham departure - what would happen then?

Exactly the same as if you'd broken your journey at Cheltenham and boarded there.

 

[robbeech]

It depends on the wording of the restriction, but in the case of restriction code 2V, which is widely used by CrossCountry, you would be allowed to board a train departing before 04:30 and to remain onboard for as long as you like. Journey planners reflect this.

Good luck finding a train that departs before 04:30 though!

It’s been known for staff to reject this in favour of making up a different rule in order to sell you a new ticket. I’ve had XC staff try this on when I split at Derby going south. No doubt they get away with it on many occasions.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Could you use an off peak ticket from Glasgow Central with an effective Monday-Friday time restriction of "not valid 0430-0859" on the 0422 TPE southbound Anglo Scottish service?