Ticket expiry question in relation to All Line Rovers

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by 87031, 10 May 2015.

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  1. 87031

    87031 Member

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    No sure if this one has been covered but how does expiry in relation to the time on an All Line Rover work?

    For example if it was going to expire tonight at 0000 is it ok to start your journey before midnight on one train then finish the next morning without needing an extra ticket?
     
  2. Trainfan344

    Trainfan344 Established Member

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    I believe the rule is as long as it is before 04:29 the next day (End of the railways day) then the ticket is valid. This means you could board a 02:34 train and your ticket would be valid.

    This mean if one is travelling late New Years Eve, you can end up travelling on a train with a ticket that was valid last year and is still valid!
     
  3. 87031

    87031 Member

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    i Thought that would be the case thanks for the info ;)
     
  4. Flamingo

    Flamingo Established Member

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    If your question means would it cover an overnight break of journey as you were unable to finish your journey the night before, I would be very wary of doing that without getting the ticket endorsed (at the least) on the previous train.
     
  5. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Can you clarify and elaborate this example with a proposed itinerary please?
     
  6. island

    island Established Member

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    Validity is until 0429 on the day after the expiry date. If you are still travelling when your ticket expires you are able to continue your journey on that train, but your ticket is unlikely to be accepted on any other trains and certainly not with a break of journey.
     
  7. 87031

    87031 Member

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    This relates to using an ALR on the sleeper service staring the journey before midnight of expiry and going into the next day
     
  8. Trainfan344

    Trainfan344 Established Member

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    You'll be alright doing that!
     
  9. Flamingo

    Flamingo Established Member

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    That should be fine. It wouldn't cover you for any train after you got off the sleeper, though.
     
  10. Hadders

    Hadders Established Member

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    I've got the 2340 Glasgow-Euston sleeper on the final day of an ALR. No problems whatsoever.

    Also worth noting that the Euston-Edinburgh/Glasgow sleeper picks up at Watford Junction at 0010 which is a useful way of starting a journey on day 1!
     
  11. First class

    First class Established Member

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    The Caledonian Sleeper website says:

    So the answer is no, you can't use an All Line Rover on the sleeper, on the last day of validity.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 10 May 2015
  12. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    That seems a little sneaky given that if I hold a single ticket it's only valid until 4:29am of the second day.
     
  13. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    But it used to be valid, and it still should be
    That page on the Caledonian Sleeper website is getting reported!

    (Yes I know that quote says off-peak tickets, but it's the same principle, with tickets now expiring at the common time of 0429)
     
  14. thedbdiboy

    thedbdiboy Member

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    The post referred to the change in use of ordinary tickets on Sleepers (as quite clearly, an absolute cut-off of 0429 wouldn't be appropriate for services that by their very nature cross two days).

    However, a Rover is a multi-day ticket and as such it is not rendered impossible to use by the requirement that it should be valid on both days. As far as national rules go, it is valid up to 0429 beyond the final day of validity (since that is the national definition of the end of previous day's service). However, the All-Line Rail Rover is a national unregulated leisure product, and if Caledonian Sleepers have decreed that they will accept them beyond 0429 only if still valid on the date of arrival, then they will be free to so this. Usual standards apply that the terms must be clearly displayed and explained, and if the rules have changed and a customer already holds a ticket purchased before the rules were clarified we wouldn't expect them to be penalised.
     
  15. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    It used to be valid, though, didn't it?

    I suggest anyone affected by this complains to Transport Scotland, Transport Focus, their MP and anyone else that'll listen.

    Probably won't get us anywhere as there is no proper ombudsman so they will probably get away with it!
     
  16. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    While I appreciate that the company has freedom to decide the manner in which an unregulated product is accepted, I must say that it is disappointing to hear that such a narrow interpretation of the validity of the All Line Rover was adopted.

    By international standards, in relation to overnight sleeper services, the normal requirement is that a Rover-type ticket needs to be valid for only one of the two days it straddles, either the day of the departure, or the day of the arrival. Adopting this common interpretation would give seven nights' validity on the sleeper. Taking the interpretation adopted by Serco literally would mean that the ticket would neither be valid overnight on the first day of validity, nor on the last day of validity, so only actually valid for six nights.
     
  17. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

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    Eight nights, actually. But otherwise in wholehearted agreement that they should be accepted if valid on one of the days spanned by the journey.

    In days gone by I have used Rover tickets on overnight trains on many occasions on both the first morning and last night in order to maximise usage, and firmly believe that this should be permitted for te ALR.
     
  18. DJ737

    DJ737 Member

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    G'day

    Britrail days are midnight to midnight, for sleepers they only need to be dated for the day of arrival.

    Cheers
    DJ737
    Keflavik, Iceland
     
  19. First class

    First class Established Member

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    But, as Serco are under NO obligation to actually accept the All Line Rover product anyway, (it being a non-regulated leisure fare), then if the issue was to be pushed, they would be perfectly able to withdraw acceptance entirely. Would lose the revenue, but once the rover fare is distributed accordingly between all the TOCs, it's hardly worth accepting anyway, especially if it means another customer can avail of a full fare berth+ticket.
     
  20. 30907

    30907 Established Member

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    And from memory tickets like Interrail specify that you put the day of arrival but can start on an overnight train from 1900 previous day.
     
  21. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    That is, of course assuming that they can then sell the berth to someone else.
     
  22. jkdd77

    jkdd77 Member

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    But they are under an absolute obligation to accept the ALR, by virtue of Condition 10 of the NRCoC:,
    by virtue of the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement, (under which it is considered to be both a ticket and an inter-available fare), and by virtue of their franchise agreement. However, the franchise agreement specifically permits an additional charge to be made for a sleeper berth.

    It may be a non-regulated leisure fare, but, since it is an inter-available fare within the meaning of the TSA, they are nonetheless obliged to accept it in the same way that they are obliged to accept inter-available SVRs and CDRs for use on the Sleeper, whether regulated or not, regardless of revenue allocation, subject to applicable time restrictions and restrictions on class of travel.
    http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk...ement EXECUTION COPY 23 May 2014_Redacted.pdf
    I believe that the same principle applies to other inter-available rovers and rangers, so that, for example, a FOSS Rover is contractually valid on London Midland and Southern services within the defined area and subject to the applicable time restrictions, regardless of any denials by the TOCs concerned. I suppose it might be possible for Serco to comply with the letter of its obligations, whilst ignoring their spirit, by asking ATOC to impose special time restrictions that effectively bar use of the Sleeper and/or other Scotrail services.

    I don't believe Serco are under any obligation to accept an ALR after it has ceased to be valid, although they would be obliged to accept a Condition 19(c) split involving an expiring ALR and a SOS/ SVS from the last station the train is scheduled to pass through before 04:30, subject to applicable time restrictions on the SVS.
     
    Last edited: 13 May 2015
  23. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    Since when does a fare being unregulated mean it can just be randomly decided it's no longer accepted? Most Off-Peak Day Returns are leisure products and aren't regulated - one of the train companies on a route can't just turn around and say "You know what, nevermind, we aren't accepting those anymore."

    Do you have any evidence that the sleeper franchise is not required to accept national rail tickets?
     
  24. First class

    First class Established Member

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    A rover ticket is not an off peak ticket, it is a fare which can be changed or removed at any time. All CDRs could be removed if a specific TOC wanted. In the same way that XC don't accept the Anglia Plus rover, Serco do not have to accept the ALR, nor does any other TOC. Rover tickets are "special offer" products.
     
  25. button_boxer

    button_boxer Established Member

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    Operator A could indeed choose to stop offering CDRs on a flow they price, but they couldn't unilaterally refuse to carry passengers on CDRs priced by another operator B that have permitted routes using A's trains (subject to time restrictions of course). If operator A wanted to ban those passengers then they would have to appeal to operator B and ask them to change the ticket restriction.
     
  26. First class

    First class Established Member

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    But in any event this is all irrelevant.

    A rover ticket is not an Off Peak or Anytime ticket. Operators are free to choose whether they take part in the product or otherwise.

    Serco can withdraw as the rover ticket is not neseccarily permanent, can be withdrawn or amended at anytime, is not regulated in any event, and Transport Scotland nor the DfT will care one bit whether or not the ticket exists or remains to be valid on the sleeper.

    A rover ticket is a "special offer".

    Condition 10 in my opinion can be met through a range of means. The ticket is valid "as advertised", the advertisements and published information providing validity information.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 14 May 2015
  27. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Oh dear.
    Operators must comply with the NRCoC or they are not adhering to their franchise terms.

    Even non-franchised operators have no effective choice but to comply, because otherwise they're forfeiting all ORCATS revenue, thus rendering them financially unviable.
    They have to adhere to the NRCoC though, and Serco cannot get the fare withdrawn. ALRs are considered "Permanent Fares" as defined in the TSA, though in theory they could be abolished, in practice I do not think that would happen, and I am reasonably confident the DfT would intervene.

    I don't think talk of ALRs being abolished is helpful nor relevant, though.
    Not really, not in any meaningful sense.
    Condition 10 is very clear that "Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket" and, as we know, the correct place for that is in the 'Route' field of the ticket.

    Condition 10 does NOT say that any such restriction or prohibition will be advertised or published elsewhere.
     
  28. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    Really!? Where did you get that from? CrossCountry will be surprised!
     
  29. greatkingrat

    greatkingrat Established Member

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  30. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    Having consulted the National Rail Enquires Page, which made no mention of any restrictions apart from time restrictions, I didn't have any problem using one on them. That said at the time, NRE didn't display any prices, trains on which there appears to now be an 'easment' so they're valid before 0845 or any information about bus validity like the GA page does, but I have never looked on their website before - why would I?

    CrossCountry's website doesn't mention the rover at all let alone any restrictions. And finally the person who sold the ticket told me that as it was the weekend it would be fine on any train.

    So perhaps what GA mean is they are just going to pretend CrossCountry don't accept the ticket so they don't get any of the revenue? ;)
     
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