ticket machine but no ticket counter

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by 34D, 27 Nov 2011.

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  1. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    Hello,

    Posting this for a friend who lives near a Northern station. If this was a PF area down south, and there was no counter but there was a TVM the passenger would risk a PF by not buying from the machine.

    In non PF areas, the issue becomes can the passenger buy a discounted ticket on train, or is the guard within their rights to issue anytime only?

    Thanks
     
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  3. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Veteran Member

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    I'm not sure what you're asking.

    You must buy a ticket before you board if there are facilities to do so. If the discount you are entitled to is not available from the machine (Priv, for example), you must buy a ticket for at least part of the journey, and exchange it for the correct ticket at the first available opportunity.
     
  4. causton

    causton Established Member

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    If the ticket was available on the TVM (i.e. railcard) then you should buy it from the machine and if you didn't the guard WOULD be right in selling only 'full fares'.

    If the ticket wasn't available on the TVM (i.e. staff/priv discount, child tickets if the machine won't sell them etc) then you should be able to buy any ticket on the train fine :)

    Not sure where this is from, or whether it is official or a tip, but apparently it is good to buy any ticket from the TVM that you can make part of your journey with, then exchange it for the one you want from the guard i.e. if you wanted a £20 rover ticket, buy a £5 single and then exchange that for the £20 rover ticket, costing £15 :)
     
  5. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    Thanks. Station is East Garforth, unstaffed, a credit/debit card only TVM has recently been installed. Printed metro WYPTE timetable states:

    "When boarding at unstaffed stations you must buy your ticket on the train.... If your journey starts at a station where no staff are in attendance you can buy your ticket from the conductor on the train."

    My question is can one board here without a ticket, as long as the intent is to purchase on train (at the CDR/railcard rate)?
     
  6. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    If the ticket machine only accepts debit/credit cards, then if you wish to pay by cash you can of course do so on the train at the cheaper Off Peak rate as appropriate.

    If the facility exists for you to buy the appropriate ticket, using the payment method of your choice, and you choose not to buy a ticket, then the NRCoC states that you will be required to buy a full-fare Anytime ticket, with no Railcard discounts.

    In this case, someone wishing to pay by card must use the machine if they want to take advantage of discounted fares, but someone wishing to pay by cash obviously cannot do this and therefore can buy the full range of fares, with discounts applicable, on board the train.
     
  7. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    Thanks. Hypothetical: if the machine also took cash, would you be saying anytime only? If so, is the WYPTE wording (back pages of current York & Selby line timetable) out-of-date?
     
  8. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    If it took cash, then providing it is in working order, Northern are entitled to apply the NRCoC to the letter and only sell Anytime fares with no discount, however the TOCs can give the passenger more extensive rights, which appears to be the case here with Northern, given the wording you quote. I would say it's worth writing to Northern/Metro to clarify this.

    It appears that this may apply here (deleted words that don't apply to this situation)

     
  9. Flamingo

    Flamingo Established Member

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    Just to add, if the passenger does not use the TVM but approaches the guard immediately on boarding to purchase a ticket (or asks them before boarding "Can I buy one with a RC on board?"), there is a much greater chance of being sold a discounted / railcard ticket than if the passenger waits for the guard to find them.
     
  10. wintonian

    wintonian Established Member

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    Except where there are notices stating it is permissible to purchases tickets on the train.
     
  11. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    "Train Operating Company" is defined in the NRCoC.

    Northern's Passenger's Charter states that if there were facilities to buy a ticket at the departure station, you will only be sold the full single or return fare.
     
  12. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    Thanks to all. My experiences on travelling this line was that rather than checking tickets, the guard walks through asking "does anyone need to buy a ticket" - all very very strange to someone who is used to procedures at busy stations in the London commuter belt.
     
  13. John @ home

    John @ home Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Up to a point. The list
    does not create two companies where only one exists.
     
  14. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    At the risk of going off topic, that's very true, and confirmed by the DfT, but some people at Southern are breaking the law by claiming that they run two train operating companies, despite admitting that one of them isn't a company and doesn't operate trains.

    The issue here, and this is why the OP needs to contact Northern/Metro, is there is a lack of clarity: the NRCoC refers to what the TOC can do, but the publication in question is produced by Metro on behalf of the TOC. How is a regular customer supposed to understand this distinction? It could be deemed an unfair term, if Northern are going to try to get out of it on that basis (but until the OP writes to them, we don't know) in which case I would suggest the matter be forwarded to both ORR/DfT.

    I am happy to proof read any letters.
     
  15. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    I got on the "Ilkley train" at Guiseley quite recently. The guard was merrily selling tickets to passengers who boarded there despite the ticket office there being open and TVMs being available. A combination of daft people and guards not trying to correct them is probably a contributory factor to the long term decline of the ticket office.
     
  16. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    It might be worth checking for disclaimers (and whether the leaflet/timetable is actually produced on the TOCs behalf or not) as I know TfGM timetable leaflets state....

     
  17. cuccir

    cuccir Established Member

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    I've found that when on the Newcastle-Carlisle train heading out of Newcastle, Northern guards will happily sell all tickets without any question as to how the passenger got into the barrier-controlled Newcastle station! A lot of these are tickets to the Metrocentre and (I am making a presumption here) I bet a significant portion of those people have travelled in hoping that they won't be checked by the time we reach the Metrocentre.

    I generally like Northern so if that's the way they chose to do it, then fine. It's understandable, too, given that most of the stations on this route don't have ticket buying facilities, that guards extend this practice to people from all stations.
     
  18. island

    island Established Member

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    I boarded at a station with TVM only on Saturday but was able to buy a ticket on arrival because I was part-paying with a rail travel voucher.
     
  19. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    The WYPTE service changes booklet states on page 23

    which as we all know is incorrect.....
     
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