Ticket machines selling Anytime tickets with Network Cards

[waterloo]

I purchased an Anytime Return ticket from a Waterloo ticket machine on Friday 12/06/09 to Parkstone (Dorset). I used my Network card and the cost was £58.10.

On my return journey (Monday 15/06/09) the ticket inspector insisted I had an invalid ticket and charged me an additional £44 (single fare). He explained Network cards are not valid on the 06:15 service. I do not understand how the ticket machine issued me with a ticket that was not in fact valid Anytime. At the very least he could have explained the situation charged me the difference!

I plan to make this journey regularly. Does anyone know the most economical tickets I can buy? Are there such things as Carnets or a scheme where I could by tickets for regular weekend (Fri pm - Mon am) trips from London to Parkstone?:roll:
Many thanks!

 

[yorkie]

See the thread about Cambridge-London where someone had the same problem using the card before 10am.

Your ticket cost £58.10 I believe, and the ticket without discount was £88.00 so you should have been charged an excess of £29.90.

I agree it's utterly confusing and wrong, but there you go.

You were overcharged by £14.10.

 

[devon_metro]

Write to SWT causing a fuss. It's their error as far as the customer is concerned. Threaten to take business elsewhere.

Might refund you some of your money!

 

[yorkie]

I do not understand how the ticket machine issued me with a ticket that was not in fact valid Anytime. At the very least he could have explained the situation charged me the difference!

That is what he should have done, charging the difference not charging a new fare.

What time train do you get on Fridays?

If it's off peak on Fridays, but peak on Mondays then the best combination may be a discounted CDS at £27.90 plus a non-discounted SDS at £44.00 totalling £71.90.

This is cheaper than the non-discounted SOR at a ludicrous £88.00

However it is cheaper to buy a Off Peak ticket to Rugby at £69.80 (a third off that down to £46.05 if you are eligible for one of the National Railcards e.g. 16-25, Senior etc) this includes a return LU journey across London. It is unrestricted between Parkstone and London.

If SWT want to scam you with a rip-off product, then the solution is to avoid the scam by using a product that is more sensibly priced. It's perfectly valid.

 

[mathmo]

I think in future you will have to buy singles for each direction (as the cheapest option): an Off-Peak single with railcard on the outbound (£27.90) and an Anytime single without railcard on the return (£44). Total £71.90.

Whilst your ticket was invalid, you do certainly have a decent complaint - I think the machine should warn you in cases like this that any part of the ticket won't be valid before 10am on weekdays.

 

[waterloo]

Thanks for the replies. Here is the unhelpful response I got from SWT:

"Our ref:1522787

25 June 2009

Dear Mr Haynes

Thank you for your email of 23 June 2009.

I understand the point you are making, in that the ticket vending machine allowed you to purchase an anytime return ticket with a Network Railcard card. But as stated previously, there is only so much information that can be held and as the Network Railcard cannot be used before 1000 on weekdays, then passengers therefore know that it is not possible to obtain a discounted ticket to travel before that time.

Thank you again for taking the time to contact us."

 

[tony_mac]

You could try and point them to the Network Railcard Terms and Conditions...

You will be asked to pay the difference between the price of your discounted ticket and the full Standard fare (or the Penalty Fare if travelling in the Penalty Fares area) if:
..

c) you travel on a route for which a higher fare applies or at a time when reduced fares do not apply.

 

[yorkie]

Sadly some people ignore that rule and start quoting other rules to justify their incorrect position or are just plain ignorant of the rule.

In any case I'd argue that no rule can overturn that rule as any such rule would be to the detriment of consumers and if consumers are given conflicting or ambiguous rules then the most lenient should apply.

WSMR also incorrectly refused to issue excesses (not sure if this is still the case as the tickets they refused are now accepted but I wonder if they are refusing to excess Off Peak trains used at peak time?)

The OP is entitled to 14 quid back at the very least, and SWT should promise to give the guard additional training.

 

[John @ home]

On my return journey (Monday 15/06/09) the ticket inspector insisted I had an invalid ticket and charged me an additional £44 (single fare).

Were you allowed to keep the unused return portion of the disounted ticket? If so this remains valid for travel between Parkstone and London by any train Saturday or Sunday and any train from 1000 Monday - Friday (and there is an Easement allowing you also to use it on the 0954 from Parkstone). But it will expire at 0230 on 12 July.

At the very least he could have explained the situation charged me the difference!

By charging you the £44 single fare, the inspector was treating you as if you held no valid ticket, and no ticket where it was possible to pay an excess fare to make it valid.

Travel using a ticket dicounted by a Network Railcard is subject, among other things, to the Terms and Conditions of use of the Network Railcard http://www.railcard.co.uk/network/terms. These give a number of examples of occasions where you may have to pay the difference between the discounted price and the full Standard fare.

3. You will be asked to pay the difference between the price of your discounted ticket and the full Standard fare (or the Penalty Fare if travelling in the Penalty Fares area) if:
a) you travel beyond the station for which your ticket is issued;
b) you travel to a destination beyond the area shown on the map in this leaflet, without having first obtained the correct ticket for your journey;
c) you travel on a route for which a higher fare applies or at a time when reduced fares do not apply.

Your situation is covered precisely by Condition 3(c), so you should have been charged an excess fare of £29.90. Thus SWT should refund you the difference and offer an apology. If they don't, escalate the matter to Passenger Focus [http://www.passengerfocus.org.uk/contact-us/]. I would actually be very interested in PF's view on this case because they promoted the change to Anytime tickets as part of Fares Simplification. One of the reasons I oppose these changes is because not all Anytime tickets are valid at any time.

I plan to make this journey regularly. Does anyone know the most economical tickets I can buy?

If you need to leave Parkstone before 0930 on Mondays, yorkie has recommended that your best ticket is a £69.80 Rugby - Parkstone Off Peak Return route + London. I would have done the same - this ticket certainly used to be unrestricted between London and Parkstone. But, on checking the current National Fares Manual CD, I fear this is no longer the case.

Origin: Rugby
Destination: Parkstone (Dorset)
Route: + London
Ticket type: SVR Off-Peak Return
Adult price: £69.80
Restriction: 2C
These restrictions apply Monday to Friday. By any train on other days.
OUTWARD TRAVEL
You may travel on any train that is scheduled to DEPART as shown below:
DEPART: LONDON WATERLOO Between 0925 & 1630 (inc.) and at or after 1822
RETURN TRAVEL
You may travel on any train that is scheduled to ARRIVE as shown below:
ARRIVE: LONDON WATERLOO At or after 1050

So I don't think a £69.80 Rugby - Parkstone Off Peak Return will suit your needs. If you need to arrive in London before 1000 on Monday mornings then a £69.80 Parkstone - Rugby Off Peak Return no longer suits your needs either.

Origin: Parkstone (Dorset)
Destination: Rugby
Route: + London
Ticket type: SVR Off-Peak Return
Adult price: £69.80
Restriction: 4M
Available as listed below MONDAYS-FRIDAYS (By any train on other days).
OUTWARD TRAVEL
By any train except those timed to arrive at London terminals before 1000
RETURN TRAVEL
By any train - SEE NOTE BELOW.
NOTE: In addition to the specific restrictions shown the availability of ALL Off-Peak tickets to destinations outside the Network Area which involve travel from London Euston, Kings Cross, Liverpool Street or St Pancras on part of the OUTWARD journey and to London Euston, Kings Cross, Liverpool Street or St Pancras on part of the RETURN journey, is as shown for tickets with validity code 9A 9B or 9D

In these circumstances, i agree with mathmo that your best option is

an Off-Peak single with railcard on the outbound (£27.90) and an Anytime single without railcard on the return (£44). Total £71.90.

John

 

[yorkie]

That can't be right!

It's a rule that all tickets from inside the Network area to stations outside the Network area, via London, are unrestricted between the station inside the area and London.

This goes back to NSE/IC days and I thought no TOC was allowed to deviate from that, and it was protected?

 

[glynn80]

That can't be right!

It's a rule that all tickets from inside the Network area to stations outside the Network area, via London, are unrestricted between the station inside the area and London.

This goes back to NSE/IC days and I thought no TOC was allowed to deviate from that, and it was protected?

These conditions are not protected.

I have previously posted the protected fares regulation within the UK in this topic (http://railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=326284&highlight=protected#post326284)

Unfortunately, as long as the time constraints set within the National Rail Terms of the Franchise Agreement (usually stating the minimum validity, timewise, of the old Saver fares) are met, the TOC is free to alter the conditions as they wish.

 

[yorkie]

If so, how can they say it's a rule that applies to all tickets if some TOCs can deviate from it?

I've no idea where it's written down these days but I've read it before.

If this is a new rule then it will cost some passengers £hundreds because the difference between Off Peak and Anytime for journeys from the South to the North is huge.

As Virgin set this fare, how on earth can they impose these restrictions? The only thing I can think of is if they were bribed by SWT. As Stagecoach own, or part-own, both companies, perhaps this is a case for the Competition Commission?

NETWORK AREA
The former London and South
East area is now the Network
Area - for map see Retail
Manual Part Two, (National
information).
Saver tickets issued for
journeys commencing WITHIN the
Network Area for travel via
London are valid by any train
to London to connect with
trains from London on which
they may be used.
Saver tickets issued for
journeys commencing OUTSIDE
the Network Area for travel
via London take the
restrictions from the origin
station to London and return.
Unless shown otherwise they
are unrestricted between
London and the destination
station and return.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've got it.

The restrictions for Waterloo (only listed in the direction from Rugby not to Rugby) apply to journeys taken via Reading to the Midlands & North West that way. I don't think Rugby would be valid that way but the restriction code covers places like Birmingham which are so it lists it anyway.

The Network Area information is still valid.

So the ticket is unrestricted between Parkstone and Waterloo.

 

[glynn80]

Another development!

John@home's reply states that the Parkstone to Rugby fare has validity code 2C, whereas the FRPP states that the validity code is 4M.

Validity Code 4M states:

Available as listed below MONDAYS-FRIDAYS - (By any train on other days)

Outward Travel
By any train except those timed to arrive at London terminals before 1000*

Return Travel
By any train - SEE NOTE BELOW*

* Note: In addition to the specific restrictions shown the availability of ALL Off-Peak tickets to destinations outside the Network Area which involve travel from London Euston, Kings Cross, Liverpool Street or St Pancras on part of the OUTWARD journey and to London Euston, Kings Cross, Liverpool Street or St Pancras on part of the RETURN journey, is as shown for tickets with validity code 9A, 9B or 9D.

The validity codes 9A, 9B and 9D; all relate to journeys out of London Terminals. They specify no restrictions to customers travelling into London on their outward portion and vice versa on their return portion.

EDIT: Didn't read John's post, seems there are different validity codes in either direction.

 

[waterloo]

Thanks for all the info. John I will let you know if I get anywhere with Passenger Focus (PF). Not sure about the Rugby bit but it does demonstrate how crazy ticketing is! I will settle for the £71.90 ticket for now. On a wider note (probably belongs on another thread) I would love to see a system where I pay a fixed cost, say £500 per year, + millage charge (premium for busy periods).

 

[paul1609]

If so, how can they say it's a rule that applies to all tickets if some TOCs can deviate from it?

I've no idea where it's written down these days but I've read it before.

If this is a new rule then it will cost some passengers £hundreds because the difference between Off Peak and Anytime for journeys from the South to the North is huge.

As Virgin set this fare, how on earth can they impose these restrictions? The only thing I can think of is if they were bribed by SWT. As Stagecoach own, or part-own, both companies, perhaps this is a case for the Competition Commission?


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've got it.

The restrictions for Waterloo (only listed in the direction from Rugby not to Rugby) apply to journeys taken via Reading to the Midlands & North West that way. I don't think Rugby would be valid that way but the restriction code covers places like Birmingham which are so it lists it anyway.

The Network Area information is still valid.

So the ticket is unrestricted between Parkstone and Waterloo.

This has always been interpretted in my experience that Saver (off peak) tickets are only valid on services up to London which allow a reasonable connection to a train from a London terminal on which a Saver ticket will be valid.

This has been my experience going back to BR days and has been programmed in to The trainline since the begining of web sales.

Yorkies belief that these tickets are totally unrestricted in the Network Area I think is wrong.

 

[yorkie]

I think "valid by any train" means valid by any train, so I disagree that it's wrong.

As for reasonable, Nationalrail allows valid itineraries with up to 2 hours interchange time, "The maximum time period permitted for interchange between trains is 120 minutes".

The first train from Parkstone arrives at Waterloo at 0724, even allowing zero time to cross London, that is well within the 2 hour window before it is valid from Euston.

So even if this unwritten, unenforceable rule does exist (where?), it doesn't actually matter for the OP.