Ticket Office destaffing round two?

[father_jack]

Paper ticket sales are declining year on year as are sales from ticket offices. What's needed is an approach similar to self service tills where staff can assist customers that need help but also be more mobile and visible around stations. At the same ticket machines need to be updated to sell all tickets available at ticket offices. Some also have software challenges like not being able to buy both tickets for a future date and from another starting station at the same time.

The apps need to be updated to sell all tickets including e tickets for season tickets etc.

Staff also need to be multirole as much as possible to help make the case for job retention.

The red herring here is that for over 20 years it's been in the role profile of many ticket clerks and supervisors that they should act as "floorwalker" when excess to the number of the windows/sales positions or when there's disruption and nobody is buying a ticket or going anywhere anyway.

It's the management who don't enforce this and the staff who aren't self empowered who contribute to all this "shut all ticket offices" scorchead earth rubbish. It's quite demeaning for the staff who already multitask to hear senior management peddling a narrative of "people need to be taken out from behind glass" when the agreements have been always there to make this happen but they just want to replace expensive heads with cheaper ones or none at all to feather their own nests or make themselves look powerful in front of their TOC or government peers.

 

[lordbusiness]

I can see the benefits of TOTO for metro services and limited stop services like Stansted express but what about long distance services- I can't see how this would work as you could end up with a massive fee if you weren't up to speed on ticket prices?

 

[JonathanH]

I can see the benefits of TOTO for metro services and limited stop services like Stansted express but what about long distance services- I can't see how this would work as you could end up with a massive fee if you weren't up to speed on ticket prices?

Yes, TOTO isn't expected to work for long distance services, but most people use online purchased tickets for long distance travel.

You do occasionally see someone at a ticket office trying to book a long distance advance purchase journey. It can seem quite awkward and laborious as they go through the options with the ticket seller.

 

[stevieinselby]

I can see the benefits of TOTO for metro services and limited stop services like Stansted express but what about long distance services- I can't see how this would work as you could end up with a massive fee if you weren't up to speed on ticket prices?

Limited-stop is no guarantee of simple fares – Gatwick Express is limited stop, but there are many different fares available between London and Gatwick including "not Gatwick Express", "not Underground" and first class, as well as peak/off-peak, advance, group and probably others as well. Tap On Tap Off is unlikely to be viable or appropriate where you have that kind of variety of fares for people making the same journey.

 

[JonathanH]

Tap On Tap Off is unlikely to be viable or appropriate where you have that kind of variety of fares for people making the same journey.

Tap On Tap Off already exists for services from Victoria to Gatwick. For whatever reason, there hasn't been the simplification of other types fares that could be brought in as a result.

 

[yorkie]

Limited-stop is no guarantee of simple fares – Gatwick Express is limited stop, but there are many different fares available between London and Gatwick including "not Gatwick Express", "not Underground" and first class, as well as peak/off-peak, advance, group and probably others as well. Tap On Tap Off is unlikely to be viable or appropriate where you have that kind of variety of fares for people making the same journey.

The way PAYG is applied for Gatwick* is that you pay a premium to travel to Gatwick from/via central London; if anyone wants to avoid this premium, you need to tap out and back in at (somewhere like) East Croydon. (There is a video by @geofftech featuring @James Wake on Youtube, titled "The Cheapest Way to Gatwick Airport")

There is an even higher premium applied where anyone who taps in/out at Victoria platforms 13/14, which splits any longer journey into two; these trains run non-stop (but at typically the same journey time) from Victoria to Gatwick, so no way to avoid the (even higher) premium.

This arrangement may not last much longer as it is being challenged through the courts.

(* A similar premium applies for central London to Heathrow; tapping out and back in at Hatton Cross is the best way to avoid this premium on the Piccadilly Line, while Crossrail users can do likewise at somewhere like Ealing Broadway or Hayes & Harlington)

Many people no doubt pay premium fares using PAYG without being aware of it, and avoiding such premiums is much more of a faff, than it is with e-tickets or paper tickets.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

DB had a scheme when they closed a number of their ticket offices (I have no idea whether it is still a thing) where you could sit at a booth and be connected through to an agent (video rather than telephone) and you could book your ticket there.

How does that work if the prospective passenger is cloth eared? Not all deaf people can lip read or sign...

 

[Class 317]

How does that work if the prospective passenger is cloth eared? Not all deaf people can lip read or sign...

The obvious solution is to have the ability for the operator to type messages on to the screen.

 

[TheSmiths82]

Ticket offices are always useful. I remember I had a situation at Western Super Mare where my ticket to Manchester allowed for a 6 minute change at Newport. I asked the ticket office if they could let me travel on an earlier train to Newport as I thought six minutes was too tight. He said he needs to ring his manager but come back in half hour (my train wasn't due until another couple of hours). I came back and he gave me an emergency travel pass to Newport. The train I was going to get was indeed late and I would have been over an hour late getting to Manchester and would have claimed on the delay repay but I had plans and I needed to be in Manchester on time.

My using his common sense and bending the rules, it saved GWR/TFW money. In strange places I always feel better if there is a staffed ticket office as well in case things go wrong.

 

[david1212]

I don't necessarily agree, but there should be some kind of proper workaround. There should be a member of staff at any penalty fare station, as the person travelling should be able to purchase a ticket from the guard otherwise. Ticket office facilities are exactly necessary in these cases, but there should be an easy way to reach one where possible.

Now at my local station the booking office is only open limited hours and succumbs if there is a staff availability problem so always a risk of only the TVM available. This is so much slower for even a simple ticket never mind a 3-part split ticket.
Bringing back Promise to Pay whenever the ticket office is closed as proof of intention to pay should be considered.

It will mean a lot of older/disabled passengers will be unhappy and a lot of fares unobtainable from TVMs like group save discount will force passengers to buy normal price tickets.
Also the BO is often the first point of call for people who have messed up their on line bookings!

.... DB had a scheme when they closed a number of their ticket offices (I have no idea whether it is still a thing) where you could sit at a booth and be connected through to an agent (video rather than telephone) and you could book your ticket there.

A video link + touch screen would be a reasonable compromise so long as separate from the TVM or never only a single TVM, as at my local station.

 

[yorkie]

Ticket offices are always useful.

Sadly not:

Newcastle ticket office charging, I believe, an incorrect change of route excess

So I hold an Anytime Short Distance Return from Middlesbrough to Newcastle Airport routed via Hartlepool with a Two Together Railcard this costs £16.65. Due to the jet bridge at Newcastle breaking whilst being attached to the aircraft by the time I got to Newcastle to catch a Northern I just...

www.railforums.co.uk

And that's far from an isolated case; it's rife.

I remember I had a situation at Western Super Mare where my ticket to Manchester allowed for a 6 minute change at Newport. I asked the ticket office if they could let me travel on an earlier train to Newport as I thought six minutes was too tight. He said he needs to ring his manager but come back in half hour (my train wasn't due until another couple of hours). I came back and he gave me an emergency travel pass to Newport. The train I was going to get was indeed late and I would have been over an hour late getting to Manchester and would have claimed on the delay repay but I had plans and I needed to be in Manchester on time.

My using his common sense and bending the rules, it saved GWR/TFW money. In strange places I always feel better if there is a staffed ticket office as well in case things go wrong.

Try that at (say) York, and I can almost guarantee you'd not get any special permission. If acceptance isn't already in place, it would be a case of being at the discretion of the crew.

 

[DDB]

Last time this was proposed I think the TOCs were doing malicious compliance as their proposals were clearly crazy and would never go through like closing all offices at the major London stations where you get hoards off tourists etc.

However the figures posted for sales from every station were interestingly I saw one that sold less than an average of a ticket a day. Clearly that office should be closed.

The question is is the railway as a whole including government and unions able to sort something sensible in the middle?

 

[Spoorslag '70]

When I've been travelling in Germany over the last few years, DB seem to be investing in travel centres and knowledgeable agents.

Maybe you can show me those travel centres? DB is very rapidly closing them down (in particular where the local transport authorities have contracted other companies for ticket sales, e.g. around Frankfurt or in the Ruhrgebiet).
Whenever I am in the UK, I am quite suprised at the number of ticket offices still existent and in use (some only for very limited times, to be fair). Even the travel centre in Duisburg (~500k inhabitants) has significantly reduced the opening hours over the last years, only opening Monday-Saturday daytime.

A nice solution in some parts of Germany (and if I am not mistaken on Merseyrail) is having a ticket counter in some shop inside a station - quite a good compromise, if you ask me. The staff is still there and can sell tickets but also generates other income.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The obvious solution is to have the ability for the operator to type messages on to the screen.

We're getting well into the Standard Minority here. Basically all deaf people will purchase tickets online, as this doesn't necessitate hearing anything.

Text chatting on a TVM screen is about the most awkward way to buy a ticket I can imagine.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Mar 2025 ==

A nice solution in some parts of Germany (and if I am not mistaken on Merseyrail) is having a ticket counter in some shop inside a station - quite a good compromise, if you ask me. The staff is still there and can sell tickets but also generates other income.

The idea comes from the Netherlands but is widely considered a failure on Merseyrail, and they retain only a few. The problem is that it's a bad convenience store (because eg choosing the range is not the railway's competency) and a bad ticket office (because the queues are longer).

 

[yorkie]

When I've been travelling in Germany over the last few years, DB seem to be investing in travel centres and knowledgeable agents...

Reading this, I am reminded of the time that we were at a ticket office (possibly Munchen Hbf) and asked for tickets for a short journey from Simbach to Braunau am Inn, and were sold very expensive tickets for such a short journey... only to find the price on the train was extremely cheap in comparison.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Mar 2025 ==

Staff also need to be multirole as much as possible to help make the case for job retention.

Agreed, but I am not sure the unions will willingly agree to this.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

I travel frequently in Germany and find the opposite is true. Very few "smaller" stations have any staff at all. So far as larger stations are concerned, taking Koln Hbf as a example, the well equipped Travel Centre has recently closed to be replaced by a much smaller Ticket Office.

I'm going back a few years (2008) but I remember spending a Friday night in Leverkusen after watching Bayer Leverkusen beat Hannover 96 4-0. I had an early flight from Duesseldorf the next morning so tried to buy my ticket in advance from the ticket office at Leverkusen Mitte. To my astonishment I was told "This is not possible".

I wasn't allowed out of my B&B as early as I would have wanted and arrived at the station to find the ticket office closed and the TVMs not taking cash. Fortunately, after a local told me the machine was "bargeldlos", I managed to find a bank card which worked just in time to get my train. I managed to see Bradford lose 1-0 to Ilkseton Town that afternoon.

Germany isn't always the public transport paradise one might be led to believe.

 

[TUC]

I’ve said it before, but a well-executed contactless scheme will do wonders. Go to almost any suburban London station and people simply don’t buy physical tickets any more for the great majority of the journeys. Maybe one in a hundred or one in two-hundred.

As with London, it is applying discounts such as railcards where the challenge lies.

 

[Hadlow Road]

As with London, it is applying discounts such as railcards where the challenge lies.

Hmm, my Senior Railcard is “marked“ on my Oyster, but I do not know how this would operate with a bank card. Ah, must try to look that up - so far unsuccessfully.

 

[Sonic1234]

As with London, it is applying discounts such as railcards where the challenge lies.

Not something ticket offices can do - this is done at Underground stations, none of which have ticket offices.

Ticket offices in London are more redundant than they could be because they can't do anything related to Oyster.

There's a decent amount of usage at the stations which have services beyond the Zones like East Croydon, but virtually no usage at suburban stations with only local services. Working at an suburban London station ticket office must be a dream job if you like watching YouTube on your phone.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hmm, my Senior Railcard is “marked“ on my Oyster, but I do not know how this would operate with a bank card. Ah, must try to look that up - so far unsuccessfully.

You can't link a railcard to a contactless bank card.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can't link a railcard to a contactless bank card.

As things stand you can't, but it's likely to change at some point when son of Oyster moves onto the contactless back end.

 

[Hadlow Road]

You can't link a railcard to a contactless bank card.

Ah, thank you for that. I can stop looking and be thankful that I retained my Oyster card.

 

[sprunt]

As with London, it is applying discounts such as railcards where the challenge lies.

That's not really a challenge at all - it would be relatively simple - in the context of a larger PAYG system - to allow railcard holders to register a payment card against their railcard and check whether the payment card being used is registered against a railcard. There just seems to be the lack of will to do it, it's pretty poor that after so long accepting contactless that TfL still can't do it.

 

[The exile]

When I've been travelling in Germany over the last few years, DB seem to be investing in travel centres and knowledgeable agents.

We need to be encouraging train travel and making it more accessible. I'm all for AI and technology where it genuinely helps, but sometimes you just need a human and a friendly face to help you.

Investing in the railway and getting people to switch to train, should include putting more humans on the front line. IMHO.

That may be the case - but it follows years / decades of closures - including manifestly pointless ones. My former local station was a passing place with signals and crossing barriers operated from the station by the Fahrdienstleiter - who also sold tickets. Then DB Regio closed the ticket office. Staffing requirement remained the same. No ticket machine and DOO service so no onboard sales - no need to explain the effect on revenue!

 

[Bletchleyite]

That may be the case - but it follows years / decades of closures - including manifestly pointless ones. My former local station was a passing place with signals and crossing barriers operated from the station by the Fahrdienstleiter - who also sold tickets. Then DB Regio closed the ticket office. Staffing requirement remained the same. No ticket machine and DOO service so no onboard sales - no need to explain the effect on revenue!

I seem to recall that before privatisation the signaller at Rufford also sold tickets.

 

[The exile]

A nice solution in some parts of Germany (and if I am not mistaken on Merseyrail) is having a ticket counter in some shop inside a station - quite a good compromise, if you ask me. The staff is still there and can sell tickets but also generates other income.

Assisted of course by German trading laws which will give those shops a near monopoly in small towns after hours and on Sundays.

 

[paul1609]

Exactly. Trying to keep ticket offices open at the same scale for the 12-15% of people who use them for the purpose they exist is Canute-like.........by all means move the staff into more useful roles, it shouldn't be an exercise in making people redundant but equally it should be remembered that the railway is not there as a job creation agency, it's massively subsidised by the taxpayer and if efficiencies can save money for the taxpayer which can be better spent elsewhere, then those opportunities should be explored - and not just in ticket offices.

Is it 12-15% nationally? Im amazed my experience in Kent/Sussex/Hampshire would suggest more like 1.2%

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it 12-15% nationally? Im amazed my experience in Kent/Sussex/Hampshire would suggest more like 1.2%

Wouldn't surprise me if that figure was heavily skewed by Merseyrail, where everyone is forced to use them despite the fact that many would prefer not to do so (because it means having to leave the house a fair bit earlier than if they could buy online or use contactless due to the risk of a queue at the single window while someone books a long distance Advance).

 

[paul1609]

Wouldn't surprise me if that figure was heavily skewed by Merseyrail, where everyone is forced to use them despite the fact that many would prefer not to do so (because it means having to leave the house a fair bit earlier than if they could buy online or use contactless due to the risk of a queue at the single window while someone books a long distance Advance).

Given that Merseyrail in the last statistics had around a third of Docklands Light Railways Passenger Journeys Id be surprised if it could significantly swing national figures.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given that Merseyrail in the last statistics had around a third of Docklands Light Railways Passenger Journeys Id be surprised if it could significantly swing national figures.

Neither DLR nor London Underground would appear in the figures. The Lizzie would though I think.