Ticket question - Haywards Heath to Chester

[Belperpete]

Hi @Belperpete,

I was walking along the platform and saw a staff member wearing Hi-Viz who was obviously a railway employee and thus I assumed he was a WMT employee as I am not aware if any other TOC’s work Northampton (Could Be wrong).

I told him what has happened and what the guard had said about Birmingham and he said I would have needed to change at Birmingham. He then said it would quicker via Milton Keynes.

There was certainly a lot of misinformation floating around at Northampton, in that the original Crewe train was said to be cancelled (it later ran!) and that the mysterious “Birmingham train” only went to Birmingham, in fact it terminated at Crewe.

The original planned train, Milton Keynes 1619, to Crewe never went near Birmingham as it was more direct service, though this is a moot point as I was unable to board.

Sorry I didn’t make it clear in my other posts.

Thanks

Saperstein

If WMT had arranged ticket acceptance with Avanti, then I would expect them to refund the excess fare you paid. If they hadn't, I think it unlikely they would repay based on you claiming you were advised by some random unknown person in a hi-vis (who could have been the station cleaner for all you seem to know), who only advised you it would be quicker, and who apparently didn't say anything about ticket validity.

I know it is easy to be wise with hindsight, but you should really have got confirmation that your ticket would be valid from the person who advised you to travel via MK. From what it sounds to me, you accepted advice to travel on a train that you knew your ticket wasn't valid for, without bothering to mention that. How is some random guy on a platform supposed to know what type of ticket you hold unless you tell them?

While I would certainly advise requesting a refund of the excess from WMT, as that was what you say you were advised to do by the Avanti clerk who sold you it, I think you should be prepared to write it off. But you should certainly expect to be paid delay compensation based on the ticket you originally bought. As the two claims would be linked, I would recommend submitting them as a customer complaint.

 

[Saperstein]

If WMT had arranged ticket acceptance with Avanti, then I would expect them to refund the excess fare you paid. If they hadn't, I think it unlikely they would repay based on you claiming you were advised by some random unknown person in a hi-vis (who could have been the station cleaner for all you seem to know), who only advised you it would be quicker, and who apparently didn't say anything about ticket validity.

I know it is easy to be wise with hindsight, but you should really have got confirmation that your ticket would be valid from the person who advised you to travel via MK. From what it sounds to me, you accepted advice to travel on a train that you knew your ticket wasn't valid for, without bothering to mention that. How is some random guy on a platform supposed to know what type of ticket you hold unless you tell them?

While I would certainly advise requesting a refund of the excess from WMT, as that was what you say you were advised to do by the Avanti clerk who sold you it, I think you should be prepared to write it off. But you should certainly expect to be paid delay compensation based on the ticket you originally bought. As the two claims would be linked, I would recommend submitting them as a customer complaint.

Hi @Belperpete

Fair enough about the Hi-Viz bloke, no I don’t know who exactly who he was but as he’s working on a station platform I would reasonably expect him to work for the railway and not, say, British Airways!

On reaching Milton Keynes I went straight to the booking office of my own volition, as I’ve said previously to check on the advice I had been given, I cold have just have easily boarded the Avanti train but I didn’t, I went to the office to double check first.

The clerk at Milton Keynes who sold me the excess was with West Midlands Trains, not Avanti, and she echoed the advice I had been given at Northampton and said I could get a refund from WMT CS.

I accept the bloke at Northampton didn’t know what tickets I held but the clerk at Milton Keynes definitely did as I had to pass them through the ticket window for her perusal so she could excess them.

Regards

Saperstein.

 

[Belperpete]

Hi @BelperpeteFair enough about the Hi-Viz bloke, no I don’t know who exactly who he was but as he’s working on a station platform I would reasonably expect him to work for the railway and not, say, British Airways!

Once upon a time, someone wearing hi-viz could be guaranteed to be working for the railway, but not any more. And even if he was working for "the railway", it still leaves the question "what railway company was he working for, and in what capacity". The important point is: was that person authorised to give you that advice. Plenty of station cleaners wear hi-viz, for example, but would not count as an "authorised member of staff" to direct passengers what to do in case of disruption.

On reaching Milton Keynes I went straight to the booking office of my own volition,

Even just going back to Milton Keynes wasn't covered by your original ticket.

I accept the bloke at Northampton didn’t know what tickets I held but the clerk at Milton Keynes definitely did as I had to pass them through the ticket window for her perusal so she could excess them.

So, at the point when you queried if your ticket would be valid on Avanti, and you learnt it wasn't, you then had two options:
1) to refuse to pay the excess, and try and complete your journey with WMT
2) to pay the excess to travel with Avanti

You chose to pay for option 2), in order to minimise your delay, which on its own would make a refund of the excess unlikely. However, if you only chose option 2) because you had been assured by the WMT booking clerk that you would get it refunded, then you should be entitled to a refund. But did the clerk actually say that you were entitled to have it refunded? Or did she just tell you that you could apply for a refund - applying for a refund does not necessarily mean you will receive it.

Either way, as I said before, in your shoes I would be applying both for a refund of the excess you paid, and delay compensation based on the ticket you originally bought. Keep your complaint simple and to the point, avoiding any supposition about whether your original train actually ran or not.

 

[Hadders]

What I don't understand is how you ended up in Northampton in the first place.

I know you say that the Milton Keynes to Crewe train was too busy to board but if this was the case then it would have been quicker to wait an hour for the next one rather than take the Crewe train that goes via Northampton and Birmingham.

 

[Saperstein]

Once upon a time, someone wearing hi-viz could be guaranteed to be working for the railway, but not any more. And even if he was working for "the railway", it still leaves the question "what railway company was he working for, and in what capacity". The important point is: was that person authorised to give you that advice. Plenty of station cleaners wear hi-viz, for example, but would not count as an "authorised member of staff" to direct passengers what to do in case of disruption.

Not really the passengers concern though, is it at the end of the day.

What about a foreign visitor or someone who is an infrequent rail traveller?

Even just going back to Milton Keynes wasn't covered by your original ticket.

Disagree. After what happened at Northampton I was well with in my rights to return to my point of origin (Haywards Heath) and claim a full refund from the retailer.

So, at the point when you queried if your ticket would be valid on Avanti, and you learnt it wasn't, you then had two options:
1) to refuse to pay the excess, and try and complete your journey with WMT
2) to pay the excess to travel with Avanti

Untrue, I was advised to travel with Avanti. I wasn’t happy about paying the excess but I did because I was told that I would get a refund.

You chose to pay for option 2), in order to minimise your delay, which on its own would make a refund of the excess unlikely. However, if you only chose option 2) because you had been assured by the WMT booking clerk that you would get it refunded, then you should be entitled to a refund. But did the clerk actually say that you were entitled to have it refunded? Or did she just tell you that you could apply for a refund - applying for a refund does not necessarily mean you will receive it.

The clerk at Milton Keynes Central said I would get the money back but I would need to do this through WMT CS.

She wouldn’t have just said you can try to get a refund. What would have been the point in that? I cannot under stand where you are having the difficulty.

Either way, as I said before, in your shoes I would be applying both for a refund of the excess you paid, and delay compensation based on the ticket you originally bought. Keep your complaint simple and to the point, avoiding any supposition about whether your original train actually ran or not.

Indeed.

Regards

Saperstein.

 

[Saperstein]

What I don't understand is how you ended up in Northampton in the first place.

I know you say that the Milton Keynes to Crewe train was too busy to board but if this was the case then it would have been quicker to wait an hour for the next one rather than take the Crewe train that goes via Northampton and Birmingham.

Hi @Hadders

With hindsight yes, but I just wanted to get sat down and be on my way, the errant train was the next billed on the PIS to stop at Crewe.

Regards

Saperstein

 

[Belperpete]

Disagree. After what happened at Northampton I was well with in my rights to return to my point of origin (Haywards Heath) and claim a full refund from the retailer.

Apologies, I hadn't appreciated that you had abandoned your original journey, and the ticket you bought at Milton Keynes was a new ticket from Haywards Heath (rather than just from MK). In this case, you are indeed entitled to claim a full refund of your original ticket. But you are probably not entitled to claim any delay compensation, unless your onward journey on Avanti was further delayed.

She wouldn’t have just said you can try to get a refund. What would have been the point in that?

Because in such circumstances it is not unknown for staff to say that passengers can claim a refund, to defuse any potential argument about paying the extra. The passenger goes away happily but mistakenly thinking they will get a refund. As I said in my original comment, there is a big difference between being told that you can claim a refund, and being explicitly told you are entitled to a refund.

In your previous post, you gave the impression that she had said that you could get the £40-odd that you paid at MK refunded. As I said, there is little grounds for such a refund, but worth claiming if you were told to claim. However, if she told you that you could get a refund of your original ticket, then she would have been right in saying you were entitled to such a refund (provided as above that the new ticket you bought covered the journey from Haywards Heath).

 

[Saperstein]

Hi @Belperpete

Apologies, I hadn't appreciated that you had abandoned your original journey, and the ticket you bought at Milton Keynes was a new ticket from Haywards Heath (rather than just from MK). In this case, you are indeed entitled to claim a full refund of your original ticket. But you are probably not entitled to claim any delay compensation, unless your onward journey on Avanti was further delayed.

Sorry to complicate things further but to clarify, when you said my tickets weren’t valid to return to MKC, I was merely pointing out that they would have been due to disruption and that I had the right to return to HHE at no cost to myself should I wished to do. Sorry I didn’t make myself clear.
In any event, as I under stand it the excess tickets are not valid on their own anyway without the original tickets.

Because in such circumstances it is not unknown for staff to say that passengers can claim a refund, to defuse any potential argument about paying the extra. The passenger goes away happily but mistakenly thinking they will get a refund. As I said in my original comment, there is a big difference between being told that you can claim a refund, and being explicitly told you are entitled to a refund.

Not really on IMHO and likely to see the TOC in question before a small claims court if they try and wriggle out later!
Is a passenger is told something by an authorised railway employee then that should be gospel, especially booking office staff.
Regards
Saperstein.

 

[gray1404]

It sounds to be like the person spoken to at Northampton was not informed as to the operator restrictions on the existing tickets held. It would be use to the passenger to clearly state their ticket restriction or indeed show their ticket.

It also sounds like at Milton Keynes Central, the passenger approached the booking office and asked about taking the Avanti service. That is what would have led to the excess then being sold. If the passenger ask have asked for the next service to Chester using their existing tickets (and then shown them and thus the operator restrictions) then I think the advise given would have been different.