Ticket validity. Good idea or not?

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by Harlesden, 29 Oct 2011.

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  1. Harlesden

    Harlesden Member

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    Why doesn't the government make it a mandatory condition of all franchise agreements that TOC's accept each other's tickets for the same route - such as Birmingham to Euston or Stevenage to King's Cross?
    It seems totally bizarre that LM passengers can be stranded at a station served by both LM and Virgin services to London with Virgin not allowing them to board their trains to complete their journey.
    Is it fair that a FCC ticket holder at Stevenage seeing his intended service either seriously delayed or canceled should be excluded from East Coast services heading for the exact same destination?
     
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  3. Zoe

    Zoe Established Member

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    That's what Any Permitted tickets are for. Why should Virgin accept a ticket offered by London Midland to travel on their trains when they have only paid for a ticker to travel on London Midland?
     
  4. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I don't understand; the only generally available[1] tickets available from Stevenage to Kings + are those valid on either East Coast or First Capital Connect. They do not sell tickets valid on only one company.

    [1] By this, I mean tickets that can be bought on the day from the station or in advance from the ticket office
     
  5. DaveNewcastle

    DaveNewcastle Established Member Fares Advisor

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    No, because that's not how market economies work.
    Either we allow markets to set their own prices and to compete by offering a range of comparable services, or we nationalise the lot; but all the government's interventions in this sham of a free market simply doesn't work.

    Anyway, I'm off now to fill up my car with petrol. Obviously I won't be paying the advertised price, I'll be expecting the government has ordered the forecourt staff to accept the price which I've seen elsewhere.
     
  6. The North Briton

    The North Briton Member

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    Why not extend this idea to other forms of transport and insist British Airways accept Easyjet tickets between London and Glasgow? Or not...:)
     
  7. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    This subject has been done to death but I'll answer again anyway ;)
    But if you take York-Manchester, TPE informed me that Advance fares were a replacement for the old Cheap Day Returns. It's hardly fair to then complain when customers use the replacement products, the service is then not provided, and customers are then left stranded, compared to the previous products that would have allowed alternative operators/routes.

    "Stranded" is undefined.
    I'd agree with that view from a knowledgeable and experienced guard.
     
  8. Zoe

    Zoe Established Member

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    But the government haven't franchised all the fuel stations in your area to a single company.
     
  9. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    A holder of what ticket exactly? (Clearly not a Stevenage to London ticket).

    EC tend not to check tickets between Stevenage and King's Cross, relying on barriers instead (which of course will accept the ticket) and in any case EC & FCC are very good in my experience of accepting each others' tickets.
    It would be a good idea, if there was an International Air Conditions of Carriage that required other operators to help passengers out. Until then, I suggest that people use rail travel for domestic travel instead of air travel, as the chances of being extensively delayed are less and the rights for rail customers are greater. (And that's before you get into environmental reasons not to use air!)
     
  10. The North Briton

    The North Briton Member

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    Sorry, I was trying to be ironic. If the OP had included the words 'in times of serious network disruption' to his question, it might have got more serious responses. And, in the case he refers to, which has been covered in another thread, I do think LM were seriously remiss in not seeking ticket acceptance from VT (or maybe they did and VT declined, who knows?)
     
  11. Harlesden

    Harlesden Member

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    Seems rather a flippant response to me. I was not aware that the airline industry had ever been nationalized.
    Britain's railways were once nationalized and in that era, there was one national train service, and if a train was going your way, you could get on it provided your ticket was valid for your intended journey.
    My post was prompted by a thread earlier this week from an LM user stranded somewhere and seeing half empty Virgin services leaving but not being allowed to board them.
     
  12. Lampshade

    Lampshade Established Member

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    Why should a TOC you have *specifically chosen not to travel with* honour your ticket with another TOC? Would you expect First to let you travel with a Stagecoach Dayrider?

    EDIT: Obviously there's circumstances like cancelled services/last train of the day, but under normal circumstances i.e. missed it through own fault/couldn't be bothered waiting then no.
     
    Last edited: 29 Oct 2011
  13. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    If they don't want to abide by the NRCoC, then they would be in breach of their franchise obligations!

    See my post #9 but replace "Air" with "Bus/.coach"

    The original question is worded very badly, however it is my interpretation that the OP is not including instances where it is the customers "own fault" that they missed the train. However, as I've said before (in another topic a few days ago) there's no good reason why TOC-specific tickets are not supposed to be excessed (some ticket clerks/guards will excess them).
     
  14. Bedpan

    Bedpan Member

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    BOAC and BEA were both nationalised organisations, combined to form BA and then privatised in the 1980s along with BT, Railtrack and all the others.

    I bought an FCC only return ticket to Peterborough at Welwyn North about two months ago, considerably cheaper than an any permitted ticket, so I'd rather have the choice than have the government make it a mandatory condition of all franchise agreements that TOC's accept each other's tickets for the same route.
     
  15. cdonnigan

    cdonnigan Member

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    So we have two companies here company a and company b. So ive bought a ticket with company a but then miss my train so i wanna travel with company b. So as a md of company b if i let you travel on my train how do i make the money for letting you use my seat cause you paid company a already. My answer tough wait for the next train and ill have a fare paying passenger Whos paid for that seat through my company instead
     
  16. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Please use reasonable spelling, grammar and punctuation on this site, thanks :)

    To answer the question, in addition to my reply in post #6 where I identified that customers must be assisted by other TOCs in certain circumstances (and if, as the MD of a company, you did not want to comply with that condition, then you would be in breach of your franchise obligations and would have to answer to the DfT and, ultimately your Shareholders when the franchise was terminated!), I'd also like to point out that your argument centres on revenue. However revenue never determines validity; which is taken care of by the NRCoC.

    To give an example, a Peterborough to St Neots Season ticket can be combined with a St Neots to Stevenage Single, to allow a customer to take a non-stop EC train between Peterborough and St Neots. EC recieve no money at all from either ticket, yet must convey the passenger. If any TOC refused to convey customers because they "got no money" from such tickets, they would be in breach of the NRCoC, and therefore not accepting the terms of the Ticketing Settlement Agreement, and ultimately they would have to give up their franchise.

    It would be my hope and anticipation that no MD with any sense would ever use the revenue argument to justify not conveying passengers. In fact, one MD did attempt that, but a phone call from a forum member to Rail Settlement Plan (RSP - a part of ATOC) and subsequent phone call from RSP to the MD concerned, soon put the matter straight! (That MD is no longer an MD in case you're wondering).

    The NRCoC is what determines validity, not arguments about revenue!
     
  17. rail-britain

    rail-britain Established Member

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    That's a flawed model, the government have nothing to do with their operation other than the setting and collection of taxes
    Local authorities determine the licences that apply
    The majority are privately owned, the only exception are MWSA
     
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