Ticket validity - passenger liability

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by RJ, 18 Apr 2012.

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  1. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    A question for others who actually make use of creative ticketing.

    I currently use a ticket to make a long distance journey. I'll admit it - I don't expect any staff to understand why it's valid and they would have at least two compelling reasons to substantiate a belief that it's not valid.

    To explain why it is valid, I'd have to go through around 7 or 8 detailed bullet points which are more likely to bewilder than explain anything, because it makes use of multiple anomalies,
    relaxed permissions (like Condition 17) and loopholes from more or less every source of where these can be found. It's also effective in avoiding the peak time charges.

    Anyone investigating it will also have a hard time determining why it's valid without someone who has specialist knowledge to help. I found it myself. Once you know the system, you kind of know what principles to work on to identify anomalies.

    In the likely event that a member of staff does take exception to it, yes I'd provide my name and address but I'd be inclined not to explain why it's valid, as strictly speaking, it's their job to know about tickets and experience dictates that often, staff don't listen and will err on the side of enforcement if unsure. Even when I was using simple linear splits, only one point was required to explain the validity but staff struggled to get their heads around that.

    What would you do/say in such a situation? Obviously I'm keen to avoid getting a UFN as a.) IRCAS aren't likely to have a clue and b.) I don't want to explain it anywhere as I know the likely outcome once my name is mentioned in that TOC's HQ.
     
    Last edited: 18 Apr 2012
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  3. cuccir

    cuccir Established Member

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    I'm going to guess that you've not had a response so far - unless you've had PMs - because it's difficult to say anything too substantive/meaningful when dealing with an unknown situation.

    First, there's all the standard advice. Print off the relevant legilsation and have it with you. Perhaps even have your 'workings' printed out ie type line by line the process by which you have concluded your ticket is valid.

    Second, and ignoring the legal/moral rights or wrongs of your plan as we don't have the info, I'd say that any decision on whether to try and exploit a loophole would, for me, be based on the following three factors:

    1. What happens if someone decides that you're knowingly trying to fare evade by claiming this ticket is valid, and reports you to the TOC's prosecution department? If that happened you'd presumably have the opportunity to give your evidence before they decided to prosecute. So, how confident are you on your reading of the routeing/NRCOC, etc? In the event that someone took it to that level, would your argument hold up?

    2. What happens if someone physically prevents you from boarding a train? Can you afford/are you prepared to buy an Anytime ticket for some or part of your journey to get home, and then claim the money back? If your ticket is valid then in the long run you may well be able to claim money back and compensation in this situation. But if you think you might get stuck at a remote station, or somewhere late at night with no onward connections, then it might not be worth the hassle.

    3. Are any of the loopholes that you're exploiting there because they protect passengers in other situations? In other words, are you risking a TOC deciding to remove validity of reasonable if obscure routes because of your actions?
     
    Last edited: 18 Apr 2012
  4. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    Surely a flash of staff ID and a 'hello mate' is all you need to deflect attention away from your obscure ticket?

    Is there a way that you could vary the ticket at one/both ends to include the name of a station that staff are less likely/more likely to recognise?
     
  5. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    You're thinking too much of friendly guards up North. The same principles do not apply to all EMT guards/RPIs, some of whom have an agenda and can be obnoxious. I'm absolutely appalled at the way some EMT staff behave, however I am unable to go into details at some of the things I've heard (from extremely reliable sources, and a wide variety of sources I might add).

    The OP has good reason to be extremely concerned when travelling on certain TOCs, on tickets that are totally valid, but may not be considered valid by some inspectors who cannot be trusted to act in an appropriate way and make the appropriate checks.
     
  6. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    Point taken - I shouldn't be so cryptic in what I post. I spend time finding anomalous tickets then just move onto the next one if it's cheaper, even marginally so. So I have a few to choose from but you'll appreciate that I don't want to get them invalidated. Bear in mind that I'm actually making use of them rather than just discussing them so I have a vested interest in not posting too many details online. By all means, if anyone with a similar level of interest wants to discuss flows elsewhere that I don't use then I'd be more than happy to discuss what I can come up with.

    I'm also mindful of printing things out or explaining in too much detail. It has been shown in the past what can happen in this case. Not so long ago, I had a ticket withdrawn on board by a Train Manager late morning. As she had outright accused me of pulling a scam and couldn't comprehend why everything added up perfectly, I had to explain myself. By mid afternoon on the same day, this on board occurrence had reached the headquarters, gone through the revenue protection and retail departments and come back to me via a personal email from the Head of Customer Relations. That particular "anomaly" was already well known about and in the process of being closed down anyway but just goes to show how fast information can travel.

    1. As you all know, I'm someone who takes responsibility for my actions and as such, I ensure that my a*se is fully covered if I use creative ticketing. I'm 100% certain that the ticket is valid by virtue of the conditions written in black and white and furthermore, know exactly how to explain why. Thus if I ever get "done," I don't need to be apologetic or ask for any compassion in the appeal - I'll politely but firmly play their game with going by the book.

    2. That will never happen. I've previously called the police on a member of gateline staff who has attempted to prevent me from going about my business. I'm sure that they thought they were being "strict" in their conduct but the way I saw it was they were doing something completely illegal and weren't prepared to listen to reason, so it needed seeing to there and there. I know full well what's acceptable and what's not and if an investigation needs to take place then again, I know I'm fully covered.

    3. No, not really. This particular one is more of an oversight as further analysis suggests that the phenomenon has been addressed asides from a very small number of outstanding anomalous flows which could quite easily be brought into line. Funnily enough, nobody has actually asked me what ticket I've been using :idea:

    In any case, I was just curious with regards to what other people would do in a situation where they knew their ticket was valid, but the inspector genuinely didn't. I can guess the likely course of action of the average passenger but want to hear what other people who really know their beans have to say.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    The ticket I use deliberately has two stations that very few people will have heard of, though it's not a bluff as it's fully valid. Truth be told, I've been using it for over a month and no-one has said anything. I showed it at the St Pancras barrier the other day and after a perplexed glance by the assistant who I'm sure knows my face, I was let through. I think it also had something to do with having a Y-P card, Priv and TfL Staff Pass in my ticket wallet so they assume that I know what I'm doing.

    The problem is, sometimes they make the appropriate checks and the people who they have checked with don't know either! That was when I was using only Condition 19c to justify my tickets which were simple, linear splits. If that was too much for them to handle then **** knows how I'll explain this one! Not only would it require a full Routeing Guide breakdown, associated points at both ends, a fares check that's even less straightforward than the core process, easements and all but I'd need to allude to at least two conditions in the CoC and other guidance that ATOC has published, then discuss why I happily used a (Super) Off Peak ticket in the height of their evening peak. Admittedly EMT are close to claiming that there are blanket restrictions out of STP as there are very few easements, even for places in far flung corners of Scotland. When I was doing it with the Priv, I could drop the Peak rule but would then have to iterate why it was acceptable for me to commute using a Priv ticket and also talk about Condition 19c. Not to mention that I picked two of the most random stations you could think of.

    So relatively straightforward then!

    I'm just kidding, I make it up as I go along :p
     
    Last edited: 19 Apr 2012
  7. GadgetMan

    GadgetMan Member

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    One of the major problems is we don't really have anyone to turn to while checking tickets onboard. If I come across a ticket that I feel the need to question, then usually the passengers explanation will convince me that the ticket is valid, or they will get the response of I'm not sure so I will let you get on your way but will look into it later for my own benefit, but if after the discussion I am still not convinced then the ticket(s) will be withdrawn with a TIR filled in. The passenger will be issued with a zero fare ticket to enable them to complete their journey. Then it is up to the revenue department to work out whether it is or isn't valid. I will add that I don't feel the need to go down this route often, in a decade I have only withdrawn 3 tickets due to routing issues; two of which were down to the passengers using point to point tickets as rovers with the 'it says any route' argument:lol:.

    However if it was a member of rail staff then I would be happy to accept they know what they are doing.

    It would be nice to have an expert on the end of a phone line who we can ring while carrying out ticket checks for a quick yes it's a valid route or no it's not. I appreciate it isn't always that simple, but the majority of ticket/route related questions are straight forward if the person has the knowledge and access to the relevant literature.
     
  8. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    Just so that I cannot be accused of being cryptic, I'll give a few examples (several, cheaper variations have been used too :p) of fares I've paid in the past to various destinations on the MML which have raised eyebrows;

    1.
    Mottingham to Kentish Town SDS
    London Zones 2-3 Travelcard
    Cricklewood to Luton Airport Parkway SOR
    Luton Airport Parkway to Market Harborough SOR
    Market Harborough to Long Eaton

    2.
    Mottingham to Luton Airport Parkway SOR
    Luton Airport Parkway to Bedford SOR
    East Midlands (3 in 7) Rover

    3.
    Bow Brickhill to Cricklewood
    Cricklewood to Bow Brickhill (+route change excess)
    Bow Brickhill to Market Harborough SDS
    Market Harborough to Sileby SDS
    Sileby to Barrow Upon Soar 7DS
    Barrow Upon Soar to Long Eaton

    4.
    Annual Zone 1-2 Travelcard
    Boundary Zone 2 to Luton Airport Parkway SOR
    Luton Airport Parkway to Bedford SOR
    Rugby to Derby SOR

    All valid but not always gracefully accepted. On one such occasion I had to buy on board and the ticket came out like this...

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: 19 Apr 2012
  9. island

    island Established Member

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    I can understand why guards wouldn't like that, if they have to take that much time fiddling around with the Avantix!
     
  10. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

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    I can understand why an eyebrow might be raised at first sight, but fail to see why the tickets listed were not gracefully accepted after closer inspection.

    A closer look by someone with a reasonable (but not comprehensive) knowledge of the NRCoC would identify their validity. And, surely, anyone with responsibility for checking tickets should have a reasonable knowledge of the NRCoC under which tickets are issued - after all, we are constantly told on here that passengers should read the Conditions relating to any ticket they buy, before travelling !

    In such circumstances, I would ask the person declining the tickets whether TOC xxx abided by the NRCoC. The answer to this can only be 'yes', 'no', or 'I don't know' and I would expect it to be 'yes' in all cases (anything else would extremely worrying). On TPE, which I use frequently, there would be no need to even ask as an automated announcement informs us that 'TransPennine Express abides by the National Rail Conditions of Carriage':D

    I would then ask under which condition they believe the combination of tickets to be invalid .... and take it from there, depending on the reply.

    It is my firm belief that the onus should be on the TOC to state why tickets are invalid under the NRCoC, rather than on a passenger to explain why they are valid. If the TOC employee is unable to state why a ticket is invalid then the passenger should be allowed to travel unhindered. Any follow up query /clarification should be sought behind the scenes, after the event.

    Of course, all this is based on my personal view, not on the basis of any legal knowledge.
     
  11. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    I wrote in to customer relations to compliment the guard for their excellent customer service - issuing my tickets, plus the excess on the ticket I bought to the next shack, without any quibble, very good.
     
  12. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    And any dislike should be firmly aimed at the TOC(s) who set the fares in such a way that a series of local journeys on a particular route cost considerably less money than a longer journey that is the sum of those constituent parts. Of course, the local journeys are priced acceptably in such cases and it is the long distance journey that is ridiculously priced.

    However the TOCs who set such fares will no doubt believe that the local journeys are too cheap, so any attempt to stop this daft pricing would result in such fares rising, rather than a reasonable and not rip-off price for the longer distance tickets, which they use as both a penalty for Advance passengers on the wrong train and also to charge business passengers who will pay bonkers fares on expenses. Therefore, given we can't win, I am not going to argue against it, and we just have to accept the system is bonkers and make the best of it!
     
  13. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    An update for all, as I feel it's only fair.

    I switched from using Priv rate Anytime tickets to 16-25 rate Off Peak tickets a few weeks ago. In a very short space of time, I was issued with several UFNs culminating in a debt of almost £200.00. In addition to various undesirable consequences appropriated by their "Train Managers" which were causing me to lose money, I decided that enough was enough.

    IRCAS rejected two of the appeals that I made. Whoever was dealing with the appeal appears to lack any knowledge of, or ability to understand the conditions they claim to follow (there is more to the CoC than Conditions 2 & 4) and also appeared to send me standard template rejection letters which didn't appear to take into account certain points that I had made to them. This included demanding the full outstanding amounts that I had already paid several days before they sent the letter and ignoring glaring errors that the revenue staff had made on the UFNs, as well as telling me that they considered my appeal in line with the Penalty Fare Rues :-?. The third UFN, they decided to uphold. This was after EMT told me that they had cancelled the UFN at source and contacted IRCAS to let them know that no further action was to be taken.

    I complained to EMT about the money I was losing and after some investigations that forced me to get third parties involved, it was eventually concluded that the tickets I had been using were all valid. I've since received apologies and a cheque. Now, I've been told twice on two previous occasions where I've been "caught" doing nothing legally wrong that loopholes I've used will be seen to forthwith. This time, I was told that the loophole with the ticket I was using on that particular occasion would be closed "soon." Personally, I don't see the point. I'm just one pro-railway commuter, with ties to the railway, who has worked with tickets as far as they're concerned. I'm not a conglomerate of MSE or any anti-rail organisations as I'm sure some of you will testify. I mean, one of the several "principle sets" I take from requires the price of the ticket and other tickets I have no intention of using to be checked every single time I buy it. I can't see commuters plumping for the same tickets I use, especially as some of the tickets are plain bizarre and would appear to be invalid to anyone inspecting it. Other principle sets borrow from so many different conditions that even a professional investigating the ticket would have quite a hard time deciphering what principles I've used to determine the validity.

    I've accepted the inference that the tickets I have used don't comply with certain principles but they're valid by the rulebook all the same. In the meantime, I understand that revenue protection staff have been told to stop issuing me specifically with these notices for one reason or another. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall in the messrooms after that brief had been issued as there are numerous guards who have given me a hard time.

    I was using a variety of season tickets - after this was brought to ATOC's attention, a whole heap of season tickets were removed from sale at the last fares change. Given they've been there for years, I'd like to think that this was a pure coincidence, though I'm still waiting on further comment on that :p. Despite the removal of these tickets, I've found a way around it so no big deal, although it did inconvenience me for seven whole days <(. This was because I turned up at the TVM expecting to buy a ticket for immediate travel which no longer existed, resulting in me having to buy a much less useful season ticket for the same price. However, as I say it took only a few seconds to find a brand new loophole there so no biggie.

    I am pleased with the outcome. In the last couple of weeks, I made around six journeys and had no hassle at all. So well done and thanks to EMT helping me out there :)
     
    Last edited: 5 Jun 2012
  14. Solent&Wessex

    Solent&Wessex Established Member

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    I have to admit that if someone on my routes presented me with a similarly bizarre and numerous combination of tickets I would have to scratch my head and think about it, but having a reasonably good knowledge of the various ticketing rules etc, as well as a good knowledge of national and railway geography would help me to identify one way or the other relatively quickly. If in doubt I would pick the dubious bit and check the validity on that via control (who are ok at checking routing validity on point to point tickets - the answer you get is based on the accuracy of Fujitsu Journey Planner though).

    If in serious doubt and without time to investigate fully I would probably withdraw, issue a zero fare ticket and look into it later. If I find no problem then I will bin the tickets and nothing else happens. I am relatively confident that I can prove or disprove validity of these things better than Revenue Protection or others who I have found have no idea about the routeing guide at all.

    The main problem on train for me is not the lack of knowledge about these things, but the lack of time to investigate it fully on board if presented with a bizarre combination such as those highlighted above.

    If Avantix Mobile gave routing data as well it would be a lot more helpful. But that is a different debate.
     
  15. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I can see how combinations like these can get you into trouble. After all, how many EMT guards, or guards in general, would know that Rugby - Derby is valid via Bedford, or be able to confirm that within the few seconds that they have available to them?

    Well done for doing your homework. I don't think I will ever be able to pluck up the courage to use something like this on a through train, without at least a crew change somewhere. That said, surely even you can see that it is very unlikely for combinations like this one to be accepted without any question?

    I think you have hit the nail on the head.
     
  16. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    I never once said that I expected them to be accepted without question. The problem was, that I never got questioned - some guards decided they were invalid and didn't care what I had to say.

    I've made this point so many times I've lost count, but no-one seems to take the slightest bit of notice :-?.

    Also, we'll see how long it is until that ticket is no longer valid via Bedford. Then we'll see what the people who keep imploring me to reveal what tickets I use have to say about it :p

    In the first post alone :|. Does this really give the impression that I expect staff to accept the ticket without question, or am I just grossly mis-interpreting the meaning of what I say?

    There should be somebody in an office somewhere who actually understands the ticketing system who can check, rather than somebody with a computer program that has a dubious and outdated interpretation of it all.
     
    Last edited: 5 Jun 2012
  17. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    No, you didn't, however my point is that something as obscure as this is likely to cause issues, even with people who are properly trained, let alone those who work for a certain TOC. If you were in their shoes, you would also have to make a swift decision, if you believed that what you were previously told by your employer, correctly or incorrectly, was true, taking into account that there would be just as many other people who try and bluff their way through?

    I don't think the treatment you received from some of the guards was fair, however I can equally see how some of your examples could potentially cause a big fuss, rightly or wrongly.

    As to what you could say to try and convince them in those situations, I don't think there is much more that you could do. Once they have made their mind up as to whether you were trying it on or were using a legitimate combination, there is very little you could do to change it. As you have pointed out, in those situations, sometimes the only way to resolve the issue is with customer services.

    In an ideal world, yes.

    Well, in an ideal world, I would expect that passengers do not have to resort to spending extra time doing their homework beforehand in order not to be ripped off in many cases.
     
  18. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    At risk of riling a lot of people, sorry but I could not do a job and allow a situation to arise where I looked, or felt stupid in front of customers through lack of understanding of my own profession. I was 19 when I started in the ticket office. The only tickets I knew anything about were £2/£5 Travelcards, my Zip Card and Advance tickets. I literally knew nothing else about the system. I decided to learn about the ticketing system as I was fascinated by it and wanted to be able to do my job well. Consequently, I had customers asking specifically for me having been referred by others and even had other TOCs asking for my help on complex or obscure ticketing matters. Despite resigning almost a year ago, I still have staff contacting me to ask for help, which I'm more than happy to do.

    The NRCoC is not difficult to understand for someone who has taken the time out to read it. It may well take a few days, or weeks to grasp it but it can be done. Anyone checking tickets should really make the effort to do this as it plays an active part in their everyday duties. Clearly, some staff are not motivated to learn much more beyond the barest minimum they can get away with and won't take the initiative to look things up outside of designated training hours. At the same time, they think that they are the authority on ticketing matters and that the customer cannot possibly know what they're on about.

    As I'm tied to the railways, I'm always incredibly patient and polite to on board staff who are patronising and condescending in return, when they don't actually know what they're talking about. I have enough decorum to refrain from pointing out the obvious, tempting as it is but humility gets me nowhere, until I talk to the people in the headquarters, where it's clear that my humble attitude has been reported back. Casual onlookers often comment on how unprofessional the guard has been, so it reflects badly on the company. Of course, online I get lambasted by enthusiasts who understand exactly what has happened, but decide that the best way to get me to reveal what tickets I use is to give me as hard a time as possible and portray me in a negative light by making things up - see here for a prime example. Anyone thinking this will work clearly doesn't know anything about me :p

    As for pricing, I don't know, the idea of consumer surplus is wasted on me. I'm quite happy to get away with legitimately paying ~£15 to travel anytime for the 100+ mile trip instead of the £90+ price tag on the equivalent through SOS. If everyone did the same thing then I'm sure it would be calamitous for the railways which is why I feel it's best that loopholes are not publicised. Nobody helped me to find the tickets that I found (though I have to thank those who provided a second opinion on the validities for me :)) so I don't see any real reason to broadcast the details from the rooftops. I'm not a glory seeker and am only too aware that active efforts are being made to close any loopholes I've been identified as exploiting.

    That said, if someone does guess correctly then I might give a yay or nay answer. Had quite a few people saying that they think they know what I've been doing so I'd be quite interested in the theories :p. Clue: scroll up the page a bit...!
     
    Last edited: 6 Jun 2012
  19. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Yes, I agree with the majority of what you're saying. You do what you do because you have a different work ethic and a huge amount of dedication to the job. This isn't always the case with everyone else. In addition, many of them are not very well trained in a lot of areas related to ticketing for various reasons, even if they wanted to.

    I can't see the particular TOC in question improving in that respect unfortunately, as I have experienced first hand how little knowledge some of the staff appear to have especially when compared to many other TOCs, and I doubt they (the TOC) have the desire to do so. However I guess it is something that staff appear to have been briefed to leave you alone.

    On top of this, I think I can figure out who you are "over there". :)
     
  20. bignosemac

    bignosemac Established Member

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    Which is to be expected if you are critical of rail staff. If being portrayed in a negative light is of no concern to you then there really wasn't any need to link to another forum. But thanks for doing so. It was nice to read the responses from 'grid56126'. Responses that I happen to agree with.

    Interesting that over on the other forum you criticise someone for bringing up details from another forum and yet you've done the exact same thing here. :roll:
     
    Last edited: 6 Jun 2012
  21. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    I'm sure you do. I'm still waiting for evidence that I got my Priv through my parents and an explanation of why being a Priv and YP holder is suspect :lol:. Especially when I bought a 3 year YP card prior to starting service on the railways. As far as I could ascertain, he/she made deliberate libellous statements and made other strange criticisms that he/she was unable to substantiate. Not very mature behaviour, but then you do get all sorts in this hobby, quite evidently regardless of age. Given they're clearly a reader of this forum, I'm sure they'll be along soon with another idiosyncratic comically long winded rant :)

    In any case, neither of you actually have a valid point to make. I revealed quite a few ticketing combinations I have used in this thread 6 weeks ago, which pre-dates the criticism you have both come out with about me not stating what tickets have been using. Clearly, both of you know exactly what you're talking about :)
     
    Last edited: 6 Jun 2012
  22. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I apologise if you think I was criticising as it certainly was not how it was intended.
     
  23. Solent&Wessex

    Solent&Wessex Established Member

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    I too know somebody who has a Y-P card and a Priv. He got a Y-P Card then got a job in a ticket office a bit later. He keeps both as in many cases an Advance at Public Y-P rate is cheaper than priv, so he will buy them instead.

    As an aside his training has been minimal and for anything other than simple local fares appears to have been "if you're not sure, ask somebody else". Despite working for a different TOC he often asks me about some obscure tickets or routes.
     
  24. Brucey

    Brucey Member

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    There is nothing strange about having a Priv and YP card.

    Advance fares with the railcard discount can often be cheaper than the Priv anytime fare.

    Why not take advantage of all the available discounts, even if you are staff?
     
  25. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    In quite a few cases the 16-25 discounted Off-Peak fare is substantially cheaper than the PRIV fare, and, in the case of Virgin Trains only usage, have no difference in validity (e.g. Manchester-London Y-P SVR £49, PRIV SOR £74)
     
  26. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    I know this but still waiting for bignosemac/grid56126 to explain why it's odd to have both :).

    Not at all - wasn't aimed at you, it was aimed at bignosemac and that grid person!

     
  27. Urban Gateline

    Urban Gateline Established Member

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    I take issue with that statement as SWT gave me precisely 1 day of ticketing training for my role and it was mainly looking at different ticket types rather than the more complex bits of the NRCOC! After that we get no time for training at all and it is too busy at the Gateline to read through it then if that's what you'd suggest. I never had time at home as also have to study for Uni!

    Any of my learning has been "on the job" and I have referred to other colleagues when I didn't know something, or in the worst case I'd just let someone go if I really didn't know, of course I agree with keeping a good image of my TOC!
     
  28. bignosemac

    bignosemac Established Member

    Messages:
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    Libellous?

    If that is what you believe then you of course have recourse to law. Don't be surprised though if you receive a response similar to that given to the plaintiff's lawyers in Arkell vs Pressdram.

    Or you can just report the allegedly libellous statement to that forum's moderator team.

    It's the cut and thrust of debate and to accuse someone of libel is a very serious matter. Not agreeing with someone's point of view is not libel. That person asking questions to better understand your point of view is not libel. Disagreeing with the way you go about things and saying so is not libel.

    Threatening libel is however a great tactic to stifle debate. The sort of tactic used by people who don't wish to be open an honest and only want their point to view to prevail.

    Oh, and adding a smiley to your responses doesn't in any way make them less barbed. Yes. Barbed. Sue me.
     
    Last edited: 30 Jun 2012
  29. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    Rail replacement bus cab
    You will notice that I ended the debate a long time ago and invited the person in question to continue discussion privately, which he publicly declined to do. A gentleman of the highest integrity, evidently.

    Just out of interest, are you a legal expert - is that what you do for a living? :)

    My only gripe is with staff who mistakenly think they know everything and happily lumber people with an undeserved debt. When I worked in revenue protection, I was never like that. I listened to people and worked under the priciple that they were innocent unless I could prove that they were guilty, which was very easy in many cases. Hence, no successfully appealed notices on my record as a RP member of staff. Ironically, I now have multiple successfully appealed PFNs/UFNs on my record as a passenger as they were all issued by staff who did not do their job properly.

    Even in my job today, I check tickets. I have a UFN pad but don't even like issuing them to people - if they don't have a valid ticket and don't want to pay, then they won't get very far, if anywhere! I'm yet to issue a Penalty Fare either. I have to deal with a lot of Oyster irregularities - fortunately, people don't expect that I can check their journey history and credit balance so I catch quite a lot of fibbers out quite easily :p

    There are staff out there who are wise in knowing that they don't know everything and will avoid inconveniencing the customer. All guards have the resources available to them to do this, but not all make use of them. Some simply prefer to assert the authority bestowed upon them, even when it's completely unnecessary.
     
    Last edited: 6 Jun 2012
  30. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    Hear Hear! The only PF I ever got was successfully appealed, and most of us know the outcome of the intended prosecution! Ironically, the same RPI in both cases. (I promise I won't mention any of the finer details again!)

    When I sold mobile phones, I always did extra checks when doing connections and never once had a single fraudulent connection - in some seven years! Meanwhile, staff in high street retailers were getting defrauded all the time with people coming up with moody ID and dodgy payment details. I worked for myself, so had an incentive I suppose.
     
  31. Max

    Max Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    London
    I am perfectly happy for this debate to continue but not so happy with the accusations of libel flying around. This is an off forum issue (indeed it appears that RJ has attempted to solve the matter by personal exchanges) so can we leave it at that please.
     
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