Ticket validity - passenger liability

[soil]

I await the next fares change with interest. Closure of loopholes I have been using will solely be for my (dis)benefit. If anybody else in the country was using tickets the way I do on those services, it would have been flagged by staff already.

Have they closed any of 'your' loopholes in the past?

 

[34D]

Anyway, this is all great stuff for me and may well go into my dissertation, tentatively based on the UK railways fares system

Wow - what on earth is your subject?

 

[RJ]

Funnily enough I know someone who has just finished a dissertation about the UK fares structure, although I have no idea what they found out.

Oh, there's tons of stuff to write about! I haven't started (got a year and a bit to go!) but I've already done quite a few case studies.

Are you referring to the train staff or yourself with that comment?

I'm sure you're smart enough to work it out for yourself

Have they closed any of 'your' loopholes in the past?

In a word, no, although it's not quite as simple as that and that answer may well be yes depending on who you ask. However, I've been assured by EMT and ATOC that a change will be made "soon" that will close one particular loophole I've been using. I've done some digging and discovered that the next fares change will be the first opportunity for them to do so.

Wow - what on earth is your subject?

Business Management among other things! Helps that I've done a bit of varied work in retail and revenue since starting work on the railways

 

[142094]

Oh, there's tons of stuff to write about! I haven't started (got a year and a bit to go!) but I've already done quite a few case studies.

I should ask the person for a read - might learn something new myself. However I am glad I chose a different topic, although still railway-related.

 

[6Gman]

Funnily enough I know someone who has just finished a dissertation about the UK fares structure, although I have no idea what they found out.

Isn't the UK Fares Structure a bit like the nineteenth century Turkish Question? Only two men understood it. One killed himself, and the other went insane.

 

[jon0844]

I'd love to be a fly on the wall on a train that RJ is on!!

 

[RJ]

If I was a passenger, I'd find it very cringeworthy to watch, because I'm always polite to the guards. Maybe it'd be a lot more entertaining to watch if I was cheeky and dismissive, but I never, ever give staff the satisfaction of thinking they had a good reason the way they do . Besides, some of the ones were the most unpleasant to me have evidently seen "the brief" as they avoid speaking to me or making eye contact which is a shame as I smile when I see them. Pity they had to learn the hard way that I wasn't a confused, wrong passenger after all!

It turns out I needed to make two extra round trips to tie up a few loose ends. Earlier this week, a guard who "let me off" a week or two ago said that his colleagues have been clattering on about me, saying that what I do will be disallowed "soon." He said if he saw me doing the same thing next time, I'd be in "big trouble." Then walked away whilst I was trying to talk to him. I don't know why these people take it so personally that I find loopholes in the system. The money I save isn't coming out of their own pocket. Besides, I know for a fact that they cannot disallow anything until the next fares change in September, so really there are a few staff who need to calm right down trying to be the one to get something stick on me.

For the next trip, I'm hiring a car. Far more cost effective than the through ticket EMT would like me to buy, plus no hassle from staff .

 

[infobleep]

A dissertation on UK rail fares sounds fascinating.

I'd love to know who invented the routing guide?

A simple solution to all of this would be for train companies to simplify the fares structure. Why are they so keen not to do this?

 

[bb21]

A simple solution to all of this would be for train companies to simplify the fares structure. Why are they so keen not to do this?

Be careful what you wish for. If the last "simplification" exercise is anything to go by then I would rather it does not happen.

It is very unlikely that further simplification of the fares structure would be in the passengers' favour.

 

[Flamingo]

Well, getting rid of Advance tickets and Railcards would simplify my job no end...

 

[barrykas]

Well, getting rid of Advance tickets and Railcards would simplify my job no end...

European style ticketing would make things even simpler. Return = 2 * Single. First Class = 1.5 * Standard. Faster trains attract a premium. No peak and off-peak times.

Applying that to, say, London to Birmingham you might get:

Standard Single on London Midland : £20.00
Standard Single on Chiltern : £25.00
Standard Single on Virgin : £50.00

Job's a good'un.

 

[ainsworth74]

European style ticketing would make things even simpler. Return = 2 * Single. First Class = 1.5 * Standard. Faster trains attract a premium. No peak and off-peak times.

Though of course the problem then becomes one of compensation, who pays for this? For example a Leeds - York Off-Peak Day Return is £11.80 whilst the single is £11.70. So do you reduce the single to approximately £5.90 which means the TOCs lose out or do you increase the return to £23.40 meaning the passenger loses out massively?

I agree with the principle of returns being roughly twice the price of a single but in practice there are some pretty big issues...

Though I get the impression you're not being entirely serious

 

[island]

And who's going to compensate Virgin for the £29 revenue per pax lost?

 

[alcockell]

Out of interest, what would happen if a passenger like me ended up with weird ticketing set up by a Travel Agent, and i boarded in good faith - then it was challenged?

 

[Flamingo]

What do you mean by weird?

 

[alcockell]

What do you mean by weird?

I wouldn't know the first thing about routing - if I've bought a ticket, it's typically been a Saver return to wherever...

I define "weird" as the kind of routing described upthread....

 

[Flamingo]

Well weird describes what RJ does, and don't worry about anybody EVER selling you one of his combinations unless you ask for it (and even then, they will probably scratch their heads for 20 minutes figuring it out). They are one of a kind.

 

[soil]

Well weird describes what RJ does, and don't worry about anybody EVER selling you one of his combinations unless you ask for it (and even then, they will probably scratch their heads for 20 minutes figuring it out). They are one of a kind.

Would anyone care to divulge what these combinations are?

 

[Urban Gateline]

Would anyone care to divulge what these combinations are?

I doubt it, RJ already said that he will not reveal them in detail, otherwise quite rightly they may become too well publicised/known and then loopholes end up being closed which would negatively impact upon his rail journey savings

 

[34D]

Would anyone care to divulge what these combinations are?

Believe it involves a london end season, then a series of cheaper tickets that aere 'any permitted' but under normal circumstances served by FCC only.

 

[bb21]

Would anyone care to divulge what these combinations are?

From what has already been revealed, I don't think many people will be willing to try it, as it involves some rather convoluted routeing, for example, in one instance. Unless you are 100% confident in routeing knowledge, it is best avoided.

Some of the examples given are not combinations we would recommend, albeit perfectly valid.

 

[RJ]

Would anyone care to divulge what these combinations are?

See Post #7.

The trouble all started off with a Zone 1-2 Annual Gold Travelcard combined with Anytime Return splits at places like at Luton Airport Parkway and Market Harborough. Much cheaper than the through Anytime Return fare.

Then when that season expired, depending on what I needed to do in London, I'd either buy Zone 1-2 or Zone 2-3 weekly Travelcards with similar splits. On some weeks I bought an East Midlands Rover and split at Luton Airport Parkway. The aim of the game was to have the flexibility of SORs as I had a tendency not to know exactly what day I was going to travel, plus ticket offices aren't always open when I need them to be when outside of London.

I doubt it, RJ already said that he will not reveal them in detail, otherwise quite rightly they may become too well publicised/known and then loopholes end up being closed which would negatively impact upon his rail journey savings

Well I have revealed some of the things I have done in Post #7 of this thread. I don't see what the point was as:

a.) I've never once asked anybody to comment on the validity of the tickets I use.

b.) Nobody has posted a thread asking how to save money on the exact type of journey I do.

c.) Few posters seem to have taken any notice!

d.) I've started one or two threads asking for help on saving money on specific journeys and had no responses from people who claim to be interested in workarounds!

Posting loopholes doesn't help anyone - all it does is satiate the inquisitive nature of some readers. Not much point in pretending otherwise, is there?

 

[Deerfold]

I wouldn't know the first thing about routing - if I've bought a ticket, it's typically been a Saver return to wherever...

I define "weird" as the kind of routing described upthread....

I'm guessing you haven't travelled for a while as there haven't been Savers for a few years now.

 

[RJ]

I'm guessing you haven't travelled for a while as there haven't been Savers for a few years now.

Many, many lay travellers still refer to Off Peak Returns as Savers and still ask for them at the ticket office.

 

[calc7]

I nearly always ask for Saver Returns (despite only starting to use trains regularly just before the name was phased out). It also avoids confusion in being sold an Off-Peak Day Return when you wanted an Off-Peak Return, or vice versa, where both exist on a flow.

 

[Deerfold]

I nearly always ask for Saver Returns (despite only starting to use trains regularly just before the name was phased out). It also avoids confusion in being sold an Off-Peak Day Return when you wanted an Off-Peak Return, or vice versa, where both exist on a flow.

I'm not sure how that's easier (or less confusing) than asking for an Off-Peak Return.

I understand that people who have got used to the names may continue to use them.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I am frequently confirming when people are travelling (if I believe there could be confusion) as many refer to tickets as 'open returns' (which often actually means a day return), 'saver' 'day saver', 'cheap day', and so on. Working in London in 2005, people were asking me for a 'Capitalcard' when they had changed to Travelcard many years before.

 

[island]

I'm not sure how that's easier (or less confusing) than asking for an Off-Peak Return.

I asked for an "off-peak return" once and saw "CDR" flash up on the screen, and when I corrected the clerk saying I didn't want a day return he said "oh so you want a saver then"... :roll:

 

[calc7]

I asked for an "off-peak return" once and saw "CDR" flash up on the screen, and when I corrected the clerk saying I didn't want a day return he said "oh so you want a saver then"... :roll:

Precisely what happened to me!

 

[cjp]

Actually, I'd probably give FCC an easy prosecution for that. Post duly amended!

London Terminals to Dalston Kingsland as posted by RJ

IS that really a cheap way of getting to Cambridge with a break of journey or was it simply a wind up to catch naive innocents like myself?
I know I know - I ought to have played around with maps and stuff in the routing guide but I thought I would just ask being a lazy, naive, trusting innocent

I have no immediate plans to travel there but a cheap day out is cheap day out. . .