Ticket validity - passenger liability

[MikeWh]

London Terminals to Dalston Kingsland as posted by RJ

IS that really a cheap way of getting to Cambridge with a break of journey or was it simply a wind up to catch naive innocents like myself?
I know I know - I ought to have played around with maps and stuff in the routing guide but I thought I would just ask being a lazy, naive, trusting innocent

I have no immediate plans to travel there but a cheap day out is cheap day out. . .

The map is WA and it depends on which London terminals are appropriate for Dalston Kingsland. If Kings Cross is appropriate then it can certainly be done.

 

[RJ]

Right, I can finally say that equilibrium has been restored.

I sent quite a rude letter to IRCAS a few weeks ago, informing them of a few home truths with regards to their failure to act appropriately in handling my case. Today, I received a non-standard custom reply from them.

With respect to requesting payment for both notices that had already been paid - the reason given is something to do with a duplicate entry being made for one of the UFNs, with one entry being shown as unpaid, hence the request for me to pay again.

I picked them up on the constant reference to Penalty Fares and the Penalty Fares Rules despite me having a UFN. Apparently, the nature of the business means that they need to send out standard replies with references to PFN/UFNs that cross over.

The errors on the notices were acknowledged - I was particularly assertive in grilling them over the fact that they rejected my appeals despite some conspicuous mistakes being made by the inspectors. They say that they accept this point, but EMT have advised that they have already refunded me. I made this clear to them in my letter and stated I only wanted them to write off the debt and mark the notice as cancelled.

Finally I've been advised that the two UFNs in question have been marked as "the unpaid fare should not have been issued" and will clearly appear as so in the eventuality that any future checks against my name be made.

They've apologised for being in the wrong and assured me of their best intentions at all times.

I can tell that more than the average amount of administrative time and effort was spent on me - the poor judgement calls and lack of due diligence by ticket inspection staff clearly causes a domino effect of headaches elsewhere. Maybe one of these days, they will learn not to judge a book by its cover.

My commute is on hold for a few months now but in the meantime, a new dispute of a more local nature has been initiated. My latest case study is on London area season tickets so will be campaigning for a favourable outcome on this one. For all their good points, London Overground are proving to be a bit of a nuisance with regards to ticketing. If past trends are to be followed, ELL2 is going to make my commuting costs skyrocket. The season ticket I use when working full time is a good price for the 3 or so stops I travel between along the line, so I won't be letting this one lie.

 

[bb21]

I sent quite a polite yet firm and assertive letter to IRCAS a few weeks ago,

Corrected that one for you.

 

[RJ]

Corrected that one for you.

Same thing . It got the job done though, just like it did when I had to send a second appeal for the Liverpool Street Oyster incident a few years ago. They don't seem to respond positively to polite letters!

 

[cjp]

The map is WA and it depends on which London terminals are appropriate for Dalston Kingsland. If Kings Cross is appropriate then it can certainly be done.

Who is to say or even how one is to judge appropriateness when the question is "Is it permitted" However I seek a quiet life so before I attempt it [if i ever do] I will call into a ticket office or two when I have a spare ten minutes and see if they can tell me why not.

 

[RJ]

Who is to say or even how one is to judge appropriateness when the question is "Is it permitted" However I seek a quiet life so before I attempt it [if i ever do] I will call into a ticket office or two when I have a spare ten minutes and see if they can tell me why not.

The ticket will be from London Terminals.

Kings Cross is a London Terminal, so any route on map WA can be taken, so long as the rules are followed - i.e not passing through the same station twice.

 

[MikeWh]

Kings Cross is a London Terminal, so any route on map WA can be taken, so long as the rules are followed - i.e not passing through the same station twice.

You probably ought to be careful what you say about that. By your logic, Three Bridges to London terminals is valid via map LB. St Pancras is a London terminal. You don't double back. See where this is going?

 

[jon0844]

European style ticketing would make things even simpler. Return = 2 * Single. First Class = 1.5 * Standard. Faster trains attract a premium. No peak and off-peak times.

Applying that to, say, London to Birmingham you might get:

Standard Single on London Midland : £20.00
Standard Single on Chiltern : £25.00
Standard Single on Virgin : £50.00

Job's a good'un.

I always thought you could offer ticketing based on the type of service, thus introducing fast, semi-fast and slow services (Intercity being the fast service).

It would allow for some level of competition, with people given the option to travel on a slower service to go to the same destination as an Intercity train - an option already quite obvious to those going from London to Birmingham, but not necessarily for that many other routes.

Still, if my plan to have the railway run like TfL, with private operators running contracts for one body, happened it would be easier still as the Intercity trains would be clearly branded in a different way to suburban/local style services.

 

[RJ]

You probably ought to be careful what you say about that. By your logic, Three Bridges to London terminals is valid via map LB. St Pancras is a London terminal. You don't double back. See where this is going?

Off topic?

 

[cjp]

The ticket will be from London Terminals.

Kings Cross is a London Terminal, so any route on map WA can be taken, so long as the rules are followed - i.e not passing through the same station twice.

Worked for me today -sort of.

The journey was made with trepidation, a ticket office printed itinerary and sufficient "just in case" funds.

A good day out with my bicycle "spoilt" by no one properly checking my ticket as I went in and out of the barriers - perhaps they just assumed that as I was holding up my ticket and railcard it was bound to be OK (as of course it was).

Thanks guys

If there is a next time I will buy a return as the first part of the journey was faster and the difference in price s only £1.80 (and the cycle journey to Paddington is a whole lot quicker than that to Liverpool Street).

 

[yorkie]

cjp - Thanks for letting us know. Most journeys that user permitted routes and/or authorised itineraries do not appear to produce problems.

But there is always the small risk of a guard who is not familiar with the rules and/or procedures who abuses their power. Shortly after my ticket was accepted on a train on Thursday, another passenger had his rejected. Both of us were doing the same thing: going on a through train. But the difference was that the other passenger was going a longer way round. The guard initially denied the through trains rule existed, and was going to call BTP, but he changed his mind to charging an excess, and then it became letting them off! I am in discussions with a friendly guard on the same route to resolve the matter, alternatively if that is not possible I will assist the passengers who were threatened with being removed by BTP in writing a suitable letter.

I would advise extreme caution when trying something like that, make sure you know your rights. You can argue your case to some extent but if they insist on charging you, I'd pay and get a refund later (unless you are really feeling confident).

 

[RochdalePioneers]

This thread has got me playing with the BR Fares website, the Trains can be Cheaper website, the Middlesbrough group - Carlisle via Paris validity and wondering if a trip out is worth a punt. Having looked back through post history I wussed out back in 2010

 

[RJ]

I would advise extreme caution when trying something like that, make sure you know your rights. You can argue your case to some extent but if they insist on charging you, I'd pay and get a refund later (unless you are really feeling confident).

Agreed, but in this case it's relatively easy to deduce the validity by anyone with a rudimentary understanding of the NRG as opposed to the infamous website journey planners which all appear to have been largely fixed.

I'd use this particular one if I needed to travel out that way, but I have no requirement to, plus I'm trying to keep my head down for the remainder of the summer holiday.

 

[34D]

This thread has got me playing with the BR Fares website, the Trains can be Cheaper website, the Middlesbrough group - Carlisle via Paris validity and wondering if a trip out is worth a punt. Having looked back through post history I wussed out back in 2010

Via Paris? France? Is this serious?

 

[Oscar]

Via Paris? France? Is this serious?

No. This is a joke. The ticket is valid via Manchester, Preston and Penrith / St Bees or Hellifield. The Routeing Guide only applies to National Rail services and certainly not to Eurostar services or services operating outside of Great Britain.

 

[RJ]

No. This is a joke. The ticket is valid via Manchester, Preston and Penrith / St Bees or Hellifield. The Routeing Guide only applies to National Rail services and certainly not to Eurostar services or services operating outside of Great Britain.

The NRG is not the only source of anomalies where ticketing is concerned. Therefore it's not advisable to dismiss anyone's ideas, no matter how far fetched they may seem, unless of course the person is genuinely an attention seeker

RochdalePioneers, why is a Middlesbrough - Carlisle ticket valid via Paris?

 

[Oscar]

The NRG is not the only source of anomalies where ticketing is concerned. Therefore it's not advisable to dismiss anyone's ideas, no matter how far fetched they may seem, unless of course the person is genuinely an attention seeker

RochdalePioneers, why is a Middlesbrough - Carlisle ticket valid via Paris?

I would also indeed be interested in the reply. UK booking engines cannot sell routes via Paris. Eurostar's booking system cannot sell tickets with a UK origin and destination. Continental booking systems cannot sell tickets beyond St. Pancras. Moreover, the fact that a booking system offers a ticket via a particular route does not even make that ticket valid according to the NRCoC. I can't believe that there could be any "local easements" permitting this either.

Shall we now draw a line under this?

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Can anyone take a joke? Its validity via St Bees is pretty extreme, so why not push the level of extremity to France......?

Anyway, as when we last discussed this in 2010 I'd be probably unsurprised to be told by the Gripper as we pass St Bees that I am stark racing bonkers and the ticket absolutely cannot be valid. But taking my kid out on a trip on the S&C might be slightly more plausible

 

[RJ]

I would also indeed be interested in the reply. UK booking engines cannot sell routes via Paris. Eurostar's booking system cannot sell tickets with a UK origin and destination. Continental booking systems cannot sell tickets beyond St. Pancras. Moreover, the fact that a booking system offers a ticket via a particular route does not even make that ticket valid according to the NRCoC. I can't believe that there could be any "local easements" permitting this either.

Shall we now draw a line under this?

Yes - attention seeking it is it would seem!

 

[lyndhurst25]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

Maybe RachdalePioneers wasn't wanting to draw too much public attention to the ticket's actual, rather generous, routing validity for fear of ATOC changing it for the worse?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

No. This is a joke. The ticket is valid via Manchester, Preston and Penrith / St Bees or Hellifield.

Indeed, the routeing guide permitted routes does seem to indicate this, although when trying to force the journey planners to give me a journey via Manchester (or even Leeds) they won't allow it. East Coast says no fares exist, and NRES says you need to buy more than one ticket.

 

[34D]

I'll say via the Moon next time

http://www.virgingalactic.com/ presumably this comes with the level of service that we expect from Virgin West Coast? Indeed, at $200,000 the cost is about the same as an anytime return from Manchester to Euston.

 

[yorkie]

Can anyone take a joke?

Not if it purports to be factual. If you clearly identify it as a joke (e.g. use emoticon or similar) then that's different. But the problem is that you cannot tell tone in written text very easily.

Its validity via St Bees is pretty extreme, so why not push the level of extremity to France......?

It is valid via St Bees. It is not valid via France.

Anyway, as when we last discussed this in 2010 I'd be probably unsurprised to be told by the Gripper as we pass St Bees that I am stark racing bonkers and the ticket absolutely cannot be valid.

True. Someone did that recently. The guard appeared to be unaware of the NRCoC & Routeing Guide.

But taking my kid out on a trip on the S&C might be slightly more plausible

Indeed. Though unless someone wants conflict, a ticket from a well known origin to a well known destination via an extreme route, is going to result in the route being looked up and the anomaly possibly withdrawn. Marton to Wigton would seem more sensible to avoid attracting attention, indeed many people have used it successfully.

Anyway if you want your S&C trip you'd need to do it very soon, as if Northern did not know about it before... well, they do now, and I expect they will ask ATOC to ask permission from the DfT to change the Routeing Guide, and I expect the DfT to approve the change. So the validity has, at best a few months left, and possibly less.

This happened with Newcastle-Carlisle via Leeds (& Manchester) which was in the Guide for many years... until a forum members' brother was charged a new fare by a guard who was unfamiliar with the Guide, who then requested a refund, got the refund but also was informed the route would be removed. That particular change was an illegal one as it was not done with DfT permission, but then what can we do about that...!

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Will an apology for the Paris comment be acceptable? I was trying to refer to this ticket wide validity without actually naming the routes, so thought that naming validity to somewhere obviously stupid would make that point. I hadn't intended to open a discussion on validity of tickets to Paris! Which clearly isn't valid in this case as you'd have to double back....

 

[34D]

I hadn't intended to open a discussion on validity of tickets to Paris! Which clearly isn't valid in this case as you'd have to double back....

My french railway knowledge isn't that good, but with classic routes plus ferry one way and eurostar the other, you'd just about do it.

Anyway.... I apologise that I didn't see your attempt at a joke