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Ticketing - Change from Big 4 to BR

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Merle Haggard

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what, you mean it wasn't the sheer complexity of ticketing arrangements and refusal of passengers being allowed to board LNER trains on the former GCR when they had LMS tickets, despite wartime disruption, that gave rise to the popularity of nationalising the railways after the war and swept Clem Attlee to power? ;):lol:

And now there's a problem with being allowed to board an LNER train with GC tickets :D
 
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Taunton

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An efficiency of nationalisation was that the Railway Clearing House was no longer needed because it was all one railway.
Before nationalisation, for freight traffic there were rules about traffic exchange points between the railways (so that one railway couldn't maximise its revenue at the expense of another), about loading/empty return of 'foreign' wagons, and a small army of number takers at exchange points - not just wagons, but sheets and wagon equipment. There were more than 1,000,000 wagons.
Presumably there were similar rules for passenger traffic. Certainly there would be calculations of the division of receipts for inter-company tickets.
All done by clerical staff calculation.
The runaway accident at Bath Green Park in 1929 is described in the official report as crashing into and destroying the RCH office in the goods yard; the clerk on duty, the "number taker", was outside to take the details of the incoming wagons, and had to run for it. An exchange point between the S&D and the LMS.

The charges for freight were on a mileage basis by the shortest route between origin and destination, with some special exceptions (eg the Forth Bridge was charged at about 8 extra miles, for both passengers and freight), but the revenue split between the companies was proportionalised by the actual route taken. The shortest route was the default, but the freight agent (alias salesman) for the originating company could negotiate a different route (though not rate). So the Midland Railway agent at Tilbury docks in 1920 with a wagon for Bristol would see that the distance, via Acton and the GWR, would be say 140 miles. That was the charge. The first 25 miles to Acton would be Midland, the rest GWR, so if the wagon charge was £20 the Midland would get (20*(25/140)), or about £3, and the GWR (20*(115/140)), or the other £17. However the Midland man could get agreement that it was to be routed via Leicester and Birmingham. No difference in charge, 220 miles to cover instead of 140, but the Midland gets to keep the whole £20. The Midland collected the original charge, then when the number takers reports came in it was all calculated along with everything else and money moved between each company. There might have even been a through daily Midland freight between Tilbury and Bristol, whereas the GWR would have no idea it was coming until it was pushed into the exchange siding at Acton, so although longer the routing could be notably quicker.

Passenger ticket money was divided on a similar basis by the RCH, but tickets were not checked at each border, there was just a general agreement between the companies about likely routes.

Oh for a computer. This is what TOPS, originally done for the Southern Pacific railway in the USA, did as a pioneering computer system. Where is every wagon, which way is it going, what was charged, and how do we split it. Although generally thought as an operational system, it was the revenue attribution which really drove it. The US has also developed trackside readers called Automatic Car Identification which did away with number takers.
 
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Merle Haggard

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Reminded by Taunton's post, a couple of anecdotes which may be of some relevance.
There was a good example of 'keeping it all in house' that I discovered through research into the LNWR/GNR Joint line (Welham J. > Nottingham). The GN ran excursions (and maybe summer timetabled trains) from Leicester (Belgrave Road) to Norfolk, e.g. Cromer. Leaving Le'ster on the GN, they joined the LNW/GN at Marehay J, ran due North to Bottesford, then GN via Grantham to Peterborough (reverse) then M&GN to Norfolk. Follow that on the map!!! There was a much shorter route, but that would have meant leaking money to competitors. Splitting 50/50 on the joint lines was better, presumably.
On freight, the division of receipts between railway companies (as explained by Taunton in pre-nat. days) I think still exists to a small degree. In the days, not that long ago, of 'conventional' wagonload International traffic, via the Train Ferries (Dover & Harwich) and later through the Tunnel (Connectrail) similar negotiations had to be done (presumably still done for container trains), complicated rules observed, and could involve 4 or more administrations. Although in the computer age multiple part consignment notes were used, the east European railways still doing everything hand-written, communicating in the international language of bureaucracy. It was all interesting (I was there...).
 

Taunton

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On European international traffic I did read, not hugely long ago, that each country did the originating paperwork and interchanged with the others through the UIC, which is a Europe-wide equivalent of the RCH. The Italian railways were four YEARS behind with their paperwork on sharing payments to the others!

It's not just railways, any interchanging transport organisation has this - airlines, container shippers, etc. Each has developed their own ways with things.
 

steamybrian

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The M&GN closed in 1959 but it is still likely.
Most of the stations were selling M&GNR issued tickets up to closure in 1959. It is rare to find BR issued tickets from the M&GN stations closed in 1959.

Further to my earlier posting I have founded reference (=Collecting Railway Tickets by Derek Harris=) that Newton Kyme station issued NER pregrouping tickets until its closure in 1964 some 41 years after grouping.!
 

Taunton

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The M&GN, as it was owned by companies which went into separate groups in 1923, was like the Somerset & Dorset, and still carried on independently, and doubtless issuing their own tickets as before, until 1948.
 

Pinza-C55

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Were booking offices provided with a list of distances between every pair of stations or were clerks expected to calculate distances from timetables or the sectional appendix?

What happened when lines closed, necessitating longer journeys between some stations? Did the fare go up accordingly or was the old fare still charged?

When the Durham - Sunderland line closed in 1964 and passengers had to travel via Newcastle to go south eg to London, a concession was made whereby Sunderland was the same fare as Newcastle. It may still be like that.
 
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