'Tickets from X' checks - what's the point?

[DynamicSpirit]

Very often when I travel on Virgin Trains, some way into the journey, the guard will announce that s/he's checking all tickets from - say - Lancaster, or whatever the previous station was. Does anyone know what the point of these checks is?

As far as I can make out, the only people whose tickets get checked during this process seem to be the people who actually offer their tickets to the guard as s/he walks through the train - because of course the guard has no way of knowing who actually got on where and whose tickets should therefore be checked at this time. That of course means that anyone who knows they don't have a valid ticket just has to sit quietly in their seat and they'll almost certainly be ignored. That seems to make the checks useless from a revenue protection point of view, hence my question.

(I'm sure Virgin aren't the only company that do this, but have little experience on other long-distance routes).

 

[Mike395]

It might look that way but (whilst not infallible, I've seen people clearly boarding at the previous station who haven't been asked when no ticket is offered) at least in my experience which is mainly on EMT, usually the guard has at least some idea of who has already been checked, and will stop if someone they don't recognise doesn't offer up a ticket or other authority to travel. Fully agree this is never going to be 100% reliable but it'd be impractical (and no doubt annoying to passengers!) to do a full ticket check on a well-loaded HST, for example, after each stop.

 

[Randomer]

Agree with the above note about practicality, although XC guards not doing an all tickets after a change of crew seems to have become the norm rather than the exception recently. Wonder if this is down to some internal company policy changing.

The cynic in me also notes that it may also catch people who genuinely believe they have the correct ticket but for various reasons (no railcard on them, wrong train on an advance etc.) they do not so easier pickings.

 

[Mag_seven]

If time allows (e.g. 30 mins plus without a stop to the final destination) then the TM should undertake a "full and final" ticket examination.

 

[30907]

Agree with the above note about practicality, although XC guards not doing an all tickets after a change of crew seems to have become the norm rather than the exception recently. Wonder if this is down to some internal company policy changing.

The cynic in me also notes that it may also catch people who genuinely believe they have the correct ticket but for various reasons (no railcard on them, wrong train on an advance etc.) they do not so easier pickings.

Surely ANY ticket check will do this,, whether full or "from X"?

 

[Randomer]

Sorry, to be clearer a dishonest person will not present there ticket and thus is relying on the guard not realising they have boarded at the station "all tickets from X" refers to. Essentially a chancer has more opportunity to escape detection but the honest person does not and generally is far less likely to argue or cause disruption.

 

[Tom B]

Things have varied of late but it certainly used to be the case that, after GNER/NXEC/EC/VTEC/whatever this week's name is, trains had left Newcastle Central, a full ticket check would take place after the guard had changed over.

I assume that guards build up a rough memory of who has and hadn't had their ticket done. A friend used to work as a bus conductor, and said they could remember in most cases who they had and hadn't already checked - I assume it is something picked up with practice!

 

[gray1404]

Personally I don't offer up my ticket unless I am asked. So if its all tickets please I will offer it up. If its "tickets from X" I will ignore it if I am travelling on anything that may get queried but of course if I am individually asked and the guard stops right by me I will always offer up my ticket. I never travel without a ticket and I always make sure it is valid too. But it can avoid discussions.

I was once travelling Leeds to Liverpool and the same guard came through after Manchester asking for tickets for Manchester. He stopped by me with a smile. So I offered up my ticket. "Oh you boarded at Leeds?" "Yes, but I don't mind showing my ticket again." I replied with a smile. Between Leeds and Manchester I had changed out of a suit into casual clothes in the toilet area and put on a pair of glasses (rather then contacts).

 

[grumblingalong]

There's also a lot about impressions to be made, ticket checks aren't just about checking tickets, they're a great way to be seen and to interact with passengers. If we didn't do these checks someone would soon be on here banging on about DOO and why bother having us. Can't win.

 

[LowLevel]

As my colleague above suggests ticket checks aren't just about revenue protection - that's what revenue protection teams are for.

I tend to do one full check (from where varies depending on circumstances) and otherwise do 'tickets from', on longer distance services. Why? My employer reminds me constantly that I'm the person in charge first and safety is priority one. After that comes customer service. At the bottom of the pile is revenue protection as they employ teams to do that.

Checking tickets like that nets a surprising amount of fares and every now and then I'll have a punt if I don't think I've seen someone. You get to be quite good - sometimes I shoot and miss as I've already seem them. Then a quip about 'ooh, I've lost the plot already!' comes in and I move on. More often than not I score and it's either some waster trying to use a period ticket as a season (much satisfaction in destroying that in front of them) or a pay when asked.

More importantly it's an ice breaker. People can ask me questions, or I can keep an idea in my head if I've got people for infrequent or last connections in case of delay. I can also find people on the wrong train.

On pay trains I have a much better idea of who is getting on where in fewer numbers and generally just approach them directly once away from the origin. If I think 'you've got purple hair' or 'I think you're cute (we're humans)' I'm going to find you easily. Same for the chap who boards at a local station going to the nearby town who is 6ft 3, has a massive beard and dresses like a lumberjack and mysteriously develops narcolepsy on sitting down and seems very non plussed on being woken for the ticket he never has - but oddly remains awake for the rest of the journey once he's bought one. You pick things out.

I'm there to be visible, available and approachable. I conduct ticket checks to achieve that. I couldn't give a damn about revenue protection really as long as all the above is achieved as we have staff employed to do that paid more than the guard is. The odd hit is satisfying but I'd rather spend time with those who need me whether for advice or reassurance than using a photographic memory to hoss everyone on the train's journey.

 

[185]

I used to do tickets from x with a view to considering how I would deal with passengers if found ticketless.

Generally, with low passenger numbers it was possible to observe the small handful of passengers travelling from the origin & through "x" ie the large city and write down those say, 10-12 passenger seat numbers. Generally (assuming some hadn't changed seat) this meant everyone left had just got on at X.

Those acknowledging me got the full range of fares.
Anyone ignoring me would be challenged and sold a full whack undiscounted single, TIRd or occasionally... handed to BTP.

 

[Starmill]

In general this is evidence of good practice as it would be inconvenient and too time-consuming to check the same tickets more than once. If time allows or following a crew change sometimes guards will ask for all tickets - this is also more common in First Class. In general though it is also good practice for the guard to make an announcement explaining that they wish to see all tickets and apologising for the inconvenience to anyone who had already had their ticket checked. When this is done it seems most people have no problem showing tickets twice. There is not often time for it though. It's the same reason some guards just walk through and ask for fares rather than tickets.

 

[gray1404]

Virgin XC used to be the worst for this. On their Liverpool to Plymouth train there would be a check before Crewe, another full ticket check before Birmingham and then another after leaving Birmingham because of the crew change.

They used to do the same on the way back. I've have my ticket checked between Plymouth and Exeter. Then again before Birmingham due to the crew change and then again after Birmingham because of the crew change.

I do not see why a full ticket check if needed due to a crew change. I am sure there will be some railway related reason but it is not good customer service. I had a London Midland guard ask me for my ticket 4 times between Birmingham and Watford Junction and one of those times was while the train was still in the platform at New Street. The second was before Marston Green as he was adamant he hadn't checked my ticket already. When I asked customer service if this was "reasonable" they said they can check as many times as they want. Thankfully when I took it up line any agreed it was excessive and detracted from a good on board experience. That said though, this particular guard is know and members of the public have uploaded videos on You Tube creating problems. I do think that the London Midland/LNR still are some of the nicest and most reasonable decent on the network.

 

[LowLevel]

Virgin XC used to be the worst for this. On their Liverpool to Plymouth train there would be a check before Crewe, another full ticket check before Birmingham and then another after leaving Birmingham because of the crew change.

They used to do the same on the way back. I've have my ticket checked between Plymouth and Exeter. Then again before Birmingham due to the crew change and then again after Birmingham because of the crew change.

I do not see why a full ticket check if needed due to a crew change. I am sure there will be some railway related reason but it is not good customer service. I had a London Midland guard ask me for my ticket 4 times between Birmingham and Watford Junction and one of those times was while the train was still in the platform at New Street. The second was before Marston Green as he was adamant he hadn't checked my ticket already. When I asked customer service if this was "reasonable" they said they can check as many times as they want. Thankfully when I took it up line any agreed it was excessive and detracted from a good on board experience. That said though, this particular guard is know and members of the public have uploaded videos on You Tube creating problems. I do think that the London Midland/LNR still are some of the nicest and most reasonable decent on the network.

If you take the view of ticket checks are for revenue protection it seems obvious to me - I can't remember the faces reliably of however many hundred people per train.

Thus it is possible for someone to say tickets from X please and as you say up thread someone to sit there and not say a word - except unlike you they may not have a ticket. Thus if your aim is genuinely a revenue protection check you ask everyone.

If I take a train over following a crew change given I'm not blessed with psychic powers I have literally no idea who has been checked or who hasn't or even if the bod I'm relieving has done a check at all. I also haven't a clue where passengers are going and for things like arranging connections to be held every minute counts and the important destinations stick in my head (Oh yes, I've got people on for the last train to Lincoln etc) - it's always a full check following a change. I'd be interested to know what your alternative suggestion is to avoid the issue?

 

[Clip]

I do not see why a full ticket check if needed due to a crew change. I am sure there will be some railway related reason but it is not good customer service. .

Well the incoming guard will have no idea who has a ticket or not so its good practice to do a full ticket check not just for revenue purposes but also for someone who may need connections or have missed a stop for connections.

 

[Rover]

Very often when I travel on Virgin Trains, some way into the journey, the guard will announce that s/he's checking all tickets from - say - Lancaster, or whatever the previous station was. Does anyone know what the point of these checks is?

Actually this is not a new thing, it happened in BR days too.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Agree with the above note about practicality, although XC guards not doing an all tickets after a change of crew seems to have become the norm rather than the exception recently. Wonder if this is down to some internal company policy changing.

In my experience Virgin normally change guards at Preston, and then the new guard just does an incremental check.

Well the incoming guard will have no idea who has a ticket or not so its good practice to do a full ticket check not just for revenue purposes but also for someone who may need connections or have missed a stop for connections.

To be fair, the fact that some passengers need certain connections is something that can presumably be communicated between crew members at the changeover.

There's also a lot about impressions to be made, ticket checks aren't just about checking tickets, they're a great way to be seen and to interact with passengers. If we didn't do these checks someone would soon be on here banging on about DOO and why bother having us. Can't win.

That's a good point. If, as you and LowLevel say, they are really about interacting with passengers, then you can see how an incremental check would be very useful from that point of view. And I won't dispute that it feels much better from a passenger point of view to see that the guard is active and available.

I used to do tickets from x with a view to considering how I would deal with passengers if found ticketless.

Generally, with low passenger numbers it was possible to observe the small handful of passengers travelling from the origin & through "x" ie the large city and write down those say, 10-12 passenger seat numbers. Generally (assuming some hadn't changed seat) this meant everyone left had just got on at X.

Those acknowledging me got the full range of fares.
Anyone ignoring me would be challenged and sold a full whack undiscounted single, TIRd or occasionally... handed to BTP.

That does sound a good way of working - certainly for a class 185, which I'm guessing from your name is one of the types of train you worked on. Probably not possible though on an 11-coach Pendolino that may have 500 or so passengers on it. I imagine almost no one has that good a memory.

 

[plymothian]

Virgin XC used to be the worst for this. On their Liverpool to Plymouth train there would be a check before Crewe, another full ticket check before Birmingham and then another after leaving Birmingham because of the crew change.

They used to do the same on the way back. I've have my ticket checked between Plymouth and Exeter. Then again before Birmingham due to the crew change and then again after Birmingham because of the crew change.

I do not see why a full ticket check if needed due to a crew change. I am sure there will be some railway related reason but it is not good customer service. I had a London Midland guard ask me for my ticket 4 times between Birmingham and Watford Junction and one of those times was while the train was still in the platform at New Street. The second was before Marston Green as he was adamant he hadn't checked my ticket already. When I asked customer service if this was "reasonable" they said they can check as many times as they want. Thankfully when I took it up line any agreed it was excessive and detracted from a good on board experience. That said though, this particular guard is know and members of the public have uploaded videos on You Tube creating problems. I do think that the London Midland/LNR still are some of the nicest and most reasonable decent on the network.

I think this adequately answers the OP's question; because the guard gets a load of flack and reported to customer services if s/he bothers the passenger more than their liking.

 

[Clip]

To be fair, the fact that some passengers need certain connections is something that can presumably be communicated between crew members at the changeover.

And that would depend on how long they have for the changeover and I'm pretty sure it isn't long to reel off any information gleened. And it always helps to double check to ensure they understand does it not?

 

[Nick66]

I travel regularly from Newcastle to London on a Sunday evening and back on a Friday evening. On the KGX-NCL train there is always a full ticket check early on then tickets from X after every stop. On the NCL-KGX trip I rarely, if ever, have to show my ticket

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Last time I got VTEC from GLC to KGX there was no ticket check at all until the crew were changed over at Newcastle, then the guard would make their way through the full train. Although it's the only VTEC service that leaves from Glasgow and it's not a busy service when it leaves from GLC either.

 

[Nick66]

Oddly enough there was a ticket check last night for the first time in ages. The guard asked for tickets from York and was scanning and stamping them. I gave him my ticket but he just glanced at it and handed it back when he saw it was from Newcastle even though he hadn’t been through before. Incidentally the barriers were open at Newcastle when I went through, thought that might have had something to do with it but apparently not.