Tickets to boundary zone

Status
Not open for further replies.

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
11,191
Location
0036
Is there, or was there, a rule against issuing tickets with destination Boundary Zone X? I have been refused sale of them by various booking office staff, who insist that "you can only buy from a boundary zone, you have to buy to a named station". After a loud argument today at Northampton (NMP) I ended up buying a ticket to Watford Junction (WFJ) and got the guard to excess it. Since the TISs and many staff sell the tickets, why do some staff have such a problem?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

bignosemac

On Moderation
Joined
12 Oct 2009
Messages
4,979
From 'The Manual':

Travelcard ticket extension to National Rail stations

Holders of any Day Travelcard or Travelcard Season ticket can purchase single or return extension fare tickets for travel to or from a range of National Rail stations.

Ticket holders may wish to travel to a station outside the London Fare Zones area, or to a station in the area but farther out than the zones in which the ticket is valid. A ticket for the extra fare should be issued from the appropriate Boundary Zone.

Tickets should be issued to/from the outermost Boundary Zone of the Travelcard held and must not be valid for travel after the date of expiry of the Travelcard held. Day Travelcard holders can only purchase a Day Single of Day Return (Peak, Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak as appropriate) Excess Fare.

Travelcard extension fares should only be issued in conjunction with a valid Travelcard for journeys to or from stations outside the zones covered by the ticket held. Passengers must keep Travelcards ready to present for inspection together with their Boundary Zone extension fare ticket.
My emphasis in red.

Seems pretty clear. Any ticket clerk refusing to sell to the Boundary Zone is mistaken.
 

infobleep

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
9,865
Well Clapham Junction station refused to sell one last year. Guildford station said they can now sell them from Guildford and couldn't from Haywrds Heath so use to swop the stations round.

I asked at Haywards Heath station and was told no it's only from London boundary zone.

Perhaps it changed in between times but if it didn't then there could be a lot of staff and systems which are mistaken. It's very hard to argue against a system though when at a ticket office window.
 

bignosemac

On Moderation
Joined
12 Oct 2009
Messages
4,979
The wording from 'The Manual' quoted above was changed in Sept 2011. Prior to that 'The Manual' (NFMs 04-09) said:

Travelcard Excess Fares

Holders of any Day or longer period Travelcard may purchase single or return Excess Fares tickets for travel to a range of National Rail stations outside the London Fare Zones area. Tickets should be issued from the outermost Boundary Zone of the Travelcard held and must not be valid for travel after the date of expiry of the Travelcard held. Day Travelcard holders can only purchase a CDS, CDR, SDS or SDR Excess Fare.

Travelcard Excess Fares should only be issued in conjunction with a valid Travelcard for journeys to or from stations outside the zones covered by the ticket held. Passengers must keep Travelcards ready to present for inspection together with their excess fare ticket.
You'll note that even here in the second paragraph 'to or from' is used. Down to interpretation by staff I guess, but the new entry seems pretty clear to me. A Station X to Boundary Zone X fare should be sold if it is requested and is available in the Ticket Issuing System.
 

MikeWh

Established Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
15 Jun 2010
Messages
6,219
Location
Crayford
They were originally only available from the boundary outwards (and back if return). They have been available both ways for quite some time though. The price difference between a BZ ticket and one to/from the last station varies considerably. Sometimes it is cheaper to use the named station, unless you are using split tickets on a fast train and require them both to be zonal.
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
11,191
Location
0036
Thanks all. Do ticket office staff have access to The Manual? Is there anyone who can give me a section/page reference for what was quoted above (which I will print out)? And what's The Manual's real name? Just so I am well-armed because I am going to be buying Northampton to BZ3 a lot these next few weeks!
 

John @ home

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
1 Mar 2008
Messages
5,150
Do ticket office staff have access to The Manual?
In general, yes.
Is there anyone who can give me a section/page reference for what was quoted above?
The quotation from the current edition of The Manual is from The Manual -> London -> London Area Travelcards -> Travelcard ticket extension to National Rail stations.
what's The Manual's real name?
The Manual. Previous names for the same information are FRPP (Fares & Retail Publications Portal) and, for much of the information now in The Manual, the National Fares Manual.
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
The wording from 'The Manual' quoted above was changed in Sept 2011. Prior to that 'The Manual' (NFMs 04-09) said:

....

You'll note that even here in the second paragraph 'to or from' is used.....
Just for clarity, the 'return portion' of a return ticket would be TO a boundary zone. Thus a 'ticket' could be to a boundary zone without it actually having been sold as a ticket to a boundary zone, if you see what I mean.
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
11,191
Location
0036
Just for clarity, the 'return portion' of a return ticket would be TO a boundary zone. Thus a 'ticket' could be to a boundary zone without it actually having been sold as a ticket to a boundary zone, if you see what I mean.
Fair enough. I suppose I am going to have an argument on my hands with LM customer service arising from this!
 

bignosemac

On Moderation
Joined
12 Oct 2009
Messages
4,979
And I managed to get one valid for Reading to BZ6 yesterday. No problems. Although I did have to explain to the ticket clerk at a Bristol area station (where I was purchasing it -already holding both an AP to Reading and a Travelcard) exactly what a 'Boundary Zone' ticket was.

That's fair enough. Can't expect a clerk here in the West Country to be au fait with Boundary Zone tickets. He was happy to learn something new, explaining to me that despite being in the job for 10 years he's still learning!

Rather highlights just how difficult and complex the fares system is!
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
11,191
Location
0036
I've had a noncommittal reply from LM asking for my tickets in order that they can investigate the matter and send me any appropriate refunds.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Unfortunately, my email complaint from last week hasn't helped matters and I was again refused sale of this ticket today at NMP. Even though I provided a printout from the Manual, the clerk read it and said "no, we still can't sell it" and pointed to the fact that all the examples were selling tickets from boundary zones and the paragraph saying "if there is no fare to boundary zone X in your TIS sell to the first named station in the zone, or London Terminals if cheaper". No amount of reasoning would change her mind. I bought a single to WFJ.

I asked to speak to a manager, who accompanied me up to the train as it was about to leave. The gist of his reason for not selling the ticket was "well, it's quite ambiguous, but if we sold you this ticket it would be valid for you to travel to any boundary of zone 3, all around London if you wanted to, and it's not expensive enough for you to do that". I'd have loved to stay and take the argument to pieces, but I wasn't missing the train over it.

The guard, an American chap, was happy to O/D excess the ticket to WFJ and let me off 10p that I was short in coins so he/I didn't have to break a note.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've figured out a cheaper way to do my journey seeing as I'm going up and down to [stn]NMP[/stn] a dozen times over the next month or so; an off-peak return (SVR) from NMP to [stn]EUS[/stn] has no morning restrictions. So I'll pitch up at NMP some day, find the offending clerk, and request several SVRs for upcoming dates with reservations on some Virgin trains between [stn]MKC[/stn] and EUS :)
 

button_boxer

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2009
Messages
1,270
I've figured out a cheaper way to do my journey seeing as I'm going up and down to [stn]NMP[/stn] a dozen times over the next month or so; an off-peak return (SVR) from NMP to [stn]EUS[/stn] has no morning restrictions.
I'm not sure where you get that from, NRE is giving me a validity code of LW for the NMP to EUS off-peak return, which is only valid to arrive in London at 10:00 or later. Unless I've misunderstood and you mean to use the outward half one evening and the return half away from London in the following morning peak, which would appear to be OK.
 
Last edited:

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
11,191
Location
0036
I'm not sure where you get that from, NRE is giving me a validity code of LW for the NMP to EUS off-peak return, which is only valid to arrive in London at 10:00 or later. Unless I've misunderstood and you mean to use the outward half one evening and the return half away from London in the following morning peak, which would appear to be OK.
That's my plan. I expect to get a lot of challenge from LM and Virgin guards and barrier staff on the northbound journeys ("this is a peak train")!
 

SickyNicky

Verified Rep - TrainSplit.com
Joined
8 Sep 2010
Messages
2,487
Location
Ledbury
That's my plan. I expect to get a lot of challenge from LM and Virgin guards and barrier staff on the northbound journeys ("this is a peak train")!
Although not always. Credit to the Virgin Trains guard on Wednesday who accepted the outbound portion of my Super Off Peak Return on a morning peak train with only a few seconds thought.
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
11,191
Location
0036
LM has now committed a further violation by failing to respond to my email within ten working days. The matter is moot as I have discovered cheaper tickets which meet my travel requirements (SVR Northampton to London Terminals at £31 has no morning peak restriction on the return leg, while splitting at MKC gets a single for £13.90 with Gold card discount for my last journey back) but I do want this sorted out.
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,850
Just keep at it, and take it up with Passenger Focus/London Travelwatch as appropriate. I have a complaint with Southern from five months ago that still has not been answered, despite numerous letters, and have finally decided to take it to Passenger Focus. The result? Seems like Southern have passed it onto SWT. :s:s

Talk of incompetence from some people at doing their jobs properly.
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
11,191
Location
0036
Still no reply from LM customer service, a month since I last heard. I've just tweeted them to see if that gets anywhere.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've had a curiously-worded letter apologising for the poor customer service and delay, enclosing £3 RTV as compensation, but not admitting the ticket office was wrong or would sell the right ticket in future.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top